RGM GOAT Debate Thread

[MavsDirk41]

Obviously on court impact is your ability to impact winning on the court. Off court stuff is everything else. If you were a douche in the locker room, that might affect your ability to win on the court, and is relevant (eg Elvin Hayes), but 'how much you influenced future generations' or 'how much money you made the league' is not. Your off court issues may also have no apparent impact on winning (eg Mailman).

Im curious what does is say about a player having 10 different head coaches in 21 seasons?

^ This is an example of when a player lives completely rent free in the head of somebody that despises him.

Hey there is Taj FTW

[Special_Puppy]

Thank you for a detailed post but it's evident we have major disagreements here.

My stance on Lebron's supporting casts is just based on common sense.

Wade being able to lead a team of older Shaq plus role players to a title in 2006 and then lead teams of role players to the playoffs in 2009 and 2010 reasonably makes me believe that Wade with another star in Bosh plus role players could make the 2nd round. And guess what, an old Wade in 2016 which is 3 years after 2013 still led the Heat to a 2nd round loss as the lead player. Again my stance is rooted in common sense based on what we've seen Wade do.

First off, the 2016 Heat are a terrible example. The 2016 Heat are a different animal from the 2013 team that LeBron led. They were an incredibly well balanced team with great depth. Luol Deng and Joe Johnson were key additions to the team, Hassan Whiteside broke out as a double double threat with great interior defense. Dragic proved to be a great backcourt partner for Wade. They were an incredibly well balanced team. And even then, they still only won 48 games.

Likewise in Cleveland. Kyrie in 2014 before Lebron's arrival and with no Kevin Love led a team of role players to 33 wins despite a lot of injuries hitting the roster. Likewise, Love in 2014 before joining the Cavs led Minnesota to 40 wins in a tough Western Conference. Again, the idea that Kyrie + Love with good role players like TT, JR, Shump, Mozgov, Delly could make the 2nd round without Lebron isn't farfetched at all. Kyrie actually improved from 2014 to 2016 as well and was arguably the best player in the Eastern Conference after Lebron himself.

Good christ. There are a LOT of things wrong with this. Where do I even begin?

I guess I'll start with the obvious part... being that Irving was most certainly not the second best player in the East from 2014 to 2016, not by any stretch of the imagination. He wasn't even the best PG.

.

Who was the 2nd best player in the East during that time span? I think Kyrie and Lowry are perfectly acceptable answers to that question

[Iwasawitness]

Thank you for a detailed post but it's evident we have major disagreements here.

My stance on Lebron's supporting casts is just based on common sense.

Wade being able to lead a team of older Shaq plus role players to a title in 2006 and then lead teams of role players to the playoffs in 2009 and 2010 reasonably makes me believe that Wade with another star in Bosh plus role players could make the 2nd round. And guess what, an old Wade in 2016 which is 3 years after 2013 still led the Heat to a 2nd round loss as the lead player. Again my stance is rooted in common sense based on what we've seen Wade do.

First off, the 2016 Heat are a terrible example. The 2016 Heat are a different animal from the 2013 team that LeBron led. They were an incredibly well balanced team with great depth. Luol Deng and Joe Johnson were key additions to the team, Hassan Whiteside broke out as a double double threat with great interior defense. Dragic proved to be a great backcourt partner for Wade. They were an incredibly well balanced team. And even then, they still only won 48 games.

Likewise in Cleveland. Kyrie in 2014 before Lebron's arrival and with no Kevin Love led a team of role players to 33 wins despite a lot of injuries hitting the roster. Likewise, Love in 2014 before joining the Cavs led Minnesota to 40 wins in a tough Western Conference. Again, the idea that Kyrie + Love with good role players like TT, JR, Shump, Mozgov, Delly could make the 2nd round without Lebron isn't farfetched at all. Kyrie actually improved from 2014 to 2016 as well and was arguably the best player in the Eastern Conference after Lebron himself.

Good christ. There are a LOT of things wrong with this. Where do I even begin?

I guess I'll start with the obvious part... being that Irving was most certainly not the second best player in the East from 2014 to 2016, not by any stretch of the imagination. He wasn't even the best PG.

.

Who was the 2nd best player in the East during that time span? I think Kyrie and Lowry are perfectly acceptable answers to that question

Along with Lowry, you also had Paul George, John Wall and Melo. I also think Butler was a better player.

[Iwasawitness]

Im curious what does is say about a player having 10 different head coaches in 21 seasons?

^ This is an example of when a player lives completely rent free in the head of somebody that despises him.

Hey there is Taj FTW

Can someone please explain to me who this Taj fella is and why we keep calling Scranton that?

[Djoker]

Putting Lowry even in the same sentence circa 2016 or 2017 is disrespectful to Kyrie. Lowry was called a "trash brother" for a reason. Melo was also on a big decline in this period and wasn't as good. Melo put up medicore numbers on a lottery Knicks team. Butler, George and Wall are arguable but Kyrie proved himself more in the postseason at this point in their careers.

[ShaqAttac]

Putting Lowry even in the same sentence circa 2016 or 2017 is disrespectful to Kyrie. Lowry was called a "trash brother" for a reason. Melo was also on a big decline in this period and wasn't as good. Melo put up medicore numbers on a lottery Knicks team. Butler, George and Wall are arguable but Kyrie proved himself more in the postseason at this point in their careers.

then how come cavs sucked without bron and bos was better without him.
flat earthers overrated tbh. kyrie only do anything when he carried. putting him over butler is just disrespect

[ShaqAttac]

ive been seeing this thread since forever. how long this gonna go?

[ScrantonBulls]

^ This is an example of when a player lives completely rent free in the head of somebody that despises him.

Hey there is Taj FTW

Can someone please explain to me who this Taj fella is and why we keep calling Scranton that?

He's accused me of being like 3 different former posters, apparently. He didn't like that I was pointing out the double standards in a number of his views.

[pookenstein]

ive been seeing this thread since forever. how long this gonna go?

Until the Alien erases all other options.

[bledredwine]

Hey there is Taj FTW

Can someone please explain to me who this Taj fella is and why we keep calling Scranton that?

He's accused me of being like 3 different former posters, apparently. He didn't like that I was pointing out the double standards in a number of his views.

You have a Bulls logo and are a huge Lebron fan that posts as frequently, not to mention Taj stopped posting as you started. You also have a very similar style to your posts.

I can't blame him for thinking you are Taj. I'd bet on it as well.

Seeing as you're both self-proclaimed Bulls fans who go for Lebron in this silly debate, we can also assume that you're both
young and weren't Jordan fans.

That's too many similarities to ignore.

[Iwasawitness]

Can someone please explain to me who this Taj fella is and why we keep calling Scranton that?

He's accused me of being like 3 different former posters, apparently. He didn't like that I was pointing out the double standards in a number of his views.

You have a Bulls logo and are a huge Lebron fan that posts as frequently, not to mention Taj stopped posting as you started. You also have a very similar style to your posts.

I can't blame him for thinking you are Taj. I'd bet on it as well.

Seeing as you're both self-proclaimed Bulls fans who go for Lebron in this silly debate, we can also assume that you're both
young and weren't Jordan fans.

That's too many similarities to ignore.

Anyone have posts from this taj fella that I can see?

[One Last Shot]

Can someone please explain to me who this Taj fella is and why we keep calling Scranton that?

He's accused me of being like 3 different former posters, apparently. He didn't like that I was pointing out the double standards in a number of his views.

You have a Bulls logo and are a huge Lebron fan that posts as frequently, not to mention Taj stopped posting as you started. You also have a very similar style to your posts.

I can't blame him for thinking you are Taj. I'd bet on it as well.

Seeing as you're both self-proclaimed Bulls fans who go for Lebron in this silly debate, we can also assume that you're both
young and weren't Jordan fans.

That's too many similarities to ignore.

Silly debate? Hoopshype already got LeBron as the GOAT and there's a good chance every reputable basketball site will follow when they release their 80 greatest players ever in 2 years.

Read on Twitter

[Iwasawitness]

He's accused me of being like 3 different former posters, apparently. He didn't like that I was pointing out the double standards in a number of his views.

You have a Bulls logo and are a huge Lebron fan that posts as frequently, not to mention Taj stopped posting as you started. You also have a very similar style to your posts.

I can't blame him for thinking you are Taj. I'd bet on it as well.

Seeing as you're both self-proclaimed Bulls fans who go for Lebron in this silly debate, we can also assume that you're both
young and weren't Jordan fans.

That's too many similarities to ignore.

Silly debate? Hoopshype already got LeBron as the GOAT and there's a good chance every reputable basketball site will follow when they release their 80 greatest players ever in 2 years.

Read on Twitter

From the very same article.

(Full disclosure: The HoopsHype vote was split 50/50 on who the No. 1 should be and our editor-in-chief broke the tie in James’ favor).

Let's not put too much stock into this one.

[ShaqAttac]

Can someone please explain to me who this Taj fella is and why we keep calling Scranton that?

He's accused me of being like 3 different former posters, apparently. He didn't like that I was pointing out the double standards in a number of his views.

You have a Bulls logo and are a huge Lebron fan that posts as frequently, not to mention Taj stopped posting as you started. You also have a very similar style to your posts.

I can't blame him for thinking you are Taj. I'd bet on it as well.

Seeing as you're both self-proclaimed Bulls fans who go for Lebron in this silly debate, we can also assume that you're both
young and weren't Jordan fans.

That's too many similarities to ignore.

and mj fans wonder why pc dont like them no more

[SHAQ32]

General Board > Player Comparisons

[DonaldSanders]

General Board > Player Comparisons

PC board is frustrating, it has some of the best posters on the entire board doing amazing statistical and achievement comparisons, but a majority of posters are only there to push their favorite players with relentless bias. There is also a LeBron thread where all the LeBron fans to go to talk about LeBron, so that definitely tilts a lot of discussions with so many LeBron/Laker fans there instead of the appropriate Laker forum.

I got there to see the takes from a handful of the greats (Dr. MJ, 70s fan, all the mods are great) but there is a lot of fanboy biased garbage to sift through. It's definitely gone down in quality as time has gone on.

[SHAQ32]

General Board > Player Comparisons

PC board is frustrating, it has some of the best posters on the entire board

Best writers, yes. Most knowledgeable (or best posters)? Not sure about that.

[DonaldSanders]

Best writers, yes. Most knowledgeable (or best posters)? Not sure about that.

I guess we have different opinions, but I find some of those guys to be treasure troves of knowledge. Even when I don't agree, I often learn something. I love posters like that, where we can find different conclusions but I can still learn something along the way. But it's not a huge number of people, and they are often drown out by the biased fanboys.

[bledredwine]

General Board > Player Comparisons

PC board is frustrating, it has some of the best posters on the entire board doing amazing statistical and achievement comparisons, but a majority of posters are only there to push their favorite players with relentless bias. There is also a LeBron thread where all the LeBron fans to go to talk about LeBron, so that definitely tilts a lot of discussions with so many LeBron/Laker fans there instead of the appropriate Laker forum.

I got there to see the takes from a handful of the greats (Dr. MJ, 70s fan, all the mods are great) but there is a lot of fanboy biased garbage to sift through. It's definitely gone down in quality as time has gone on.

I agree and disagree at the same time. There are a few fantastic posters surrounded by a bunch of lower quality posters pushing their agenda/propaganda. A few particularly intelligent who rarely post and mostly lower quality posting to elevate their favorite player and that's it (Duncan or Lebron, nearly always).

Dr. MJ is a legend... love reading his posts. He made one on the +- about Jordan with Pippen/Rodman on the floor, and sure enough, it sank to the bottom of the threads quickly. But it was such a great, well researched post. That's the PC forum.

[Swindle]

I haven’t seen anyone else touch on this before so I’ll assume I’m the first person ever to bring this up.

Jordan has averaged more points during a championship postseason than his second and third leading scorers on his team combined. He completed this feat 5 times

Hakeem did it once and you’d have to go back to 1975 for it to happen previously with Rick Barry.

1991:
Jordan - 31.1
Pippen - 21.6
Grant - 13.3

1992:
Jordan - 34.5
Pippen - 19.11
Grant - 11.3

1993 :
Jordan - 35.1
Pippen - 20.1
Armstrong - 11.4
Grant - 10.7

1996:
Jordan - 30.7
Pippen - 16.9
Kukoc - 10.8

1997:
Jordan - 31.9
Pippen - 19.2
Kukoc - 7.9

1998:
Jordan - 32.4
Pippen - 16.8
Kukoc - 13.1