MVP Discussion [19/20] [part I] - voting reopened

[leolozon]

If Giannis/Doncic finish 1/2, will that be first time in MVP history that the winner and runner up are non-Americans?

Nowitzki-Nash did it in 2007. Also finished 1 and 3 in 2005 and 2006.

[Fico92]

If Giannis/Doncic finish 1/2, will that be first time in MVP history that the winner and runner up are non-Americans?

Nowitzki-Nash did it in 2007. Also finished 1 and 3 in 2005 and 2006.

Thanks, forgot how good Nash's teams were in mid 2000's.

[Joey Wheeler]

Best regular season performer is a pick'em between Giannis and Harden.

But for me an MVP should take into account how players' games translate into high leverage playoff series since that's where there are real stakes. As much, my vote would go to either Lebron James or Anthony Davis, probably the latter at this point.

[clyde21]

Best regular season performer is a pick'em between Giannis and Harden.

But for me an MVP should take into account how players' games translate into high leverage playoff series since that's where there are real stakes. As much, my vote would go to either Lebron James or Anthony Davis, probably the latter at this point.

lol wut

[Joey Wheeler]

Best regular season performer is a pick'em between Giannis and Harden.

But for me an MVP should take into account how players' games translate into high leverage playoff series since that's where there are real stakes. As much, my vote would go to either Lebron James or Anthony Davis, probably the latter at this point.

lol wut

I don't believe Harden's efficient ~40ppg or Giannis overall dominance are sustainable when it really counts given evidence from previous years. Otoh, I know Lebron and AD will be able to keep it up in the postseason and probably actually go up a gear.

When I think most valuable player, who I'd pick first if I needed to win a big series is a very important consideration

[igorbianch]

LeBron has no case for MVP...

Davis is the best defender in the league and he started to beast offensively... He is arguably better than LeBron at this point

[clyde21]

Best regular season performer is a pick'em between Giannis and Harden.

But for me an MVP should take into account how players' games translate into high leverage playoff series since that's where there are real stakes. As much, my vote would go to either Lebron James or Anthony Davis, probably the latter at this point.

lol wut

I don't believe Harden's efficient ~40ppg or Giannis overall dominance are sustainable when it really counts given evidence from previous years. Otoh, I know Lebron and AD will be able to keep it up in the postseason and probably actually go up a gear.

When I think most valuable player, who I'd pick first if I needed to win a big series is a very important consideration

you're just coming up with your own rules now to justify an MVP for either LeBron or Davis, weak.

and I don't have Harden MVP either, but it has nothing to do with the playoffs. and it's funny hearing people talk about playoffs and Davis when he's done literally nothing in the postseason except get swept in the 2nd round.

and that's not even taking into consideration that LeBron/Davis play together. weren't you one of the ones that said Steph/KD were DQ'd from the MVP conversation because they were playing together?

[Peregrine01]

To me it's Giannis comfortably right now.

[scrabbarista]

Damn, Harden played a lot of minutes already.

That's because Houston has been outscored by 8.2 points per100 when he sits.

That's as opposed to the

Lakers (2.2)
Bucks (9.3) and
Mavs (12.1)

who have all outscored their opponents without their best player on the court.

Pretty clear who's actually been the most "valuable" player, but I know no one actually cares.

Carry on with your thread.

[Cavsfansince84]

Damn, Harden played a lot of minutes already.

That's because Houston has been outscored by 8.2 points per100 when he sits.

That's as opposed to the

Lakers (2.2)
Bucks (9.3) and
Mavs (12.1)

who have all outscored their opponents without their best player on the court.

Pretty clear who's actually been the most "valuable" player, but I know no one actually cares.

Carry on with your thread.

At the same time I think that's partly or perhaps largely due to how the Rockets and their coach both constructed and run their team. That team is set up to have Harden be even more of the centerpiece than the old LeBron Cavs were which also were terrible when he sat. I mean yes you can make a case for him being mvp with that data but I don't think that should be the sole criteria for who deserves the mvp. That's why I hate when people only want to use one data point or metric for anything. You need to look at things from multiple sides and with multiple ways of measuring productivity and impact.

[Triples333]

Harden going a ho-hum 3 for 17 from 3 is just... I can't stand this player. I've never wanted a players career to end quicker.

And as a Warrior fan, you'd think I'd want him to be immortal.

[clyde21]

Harden going a ho-hum 3 for 17 from 3 is just... I can't stand this player. I've never wanted a players career to end quicker.

And as a Warrior fan, you'd think I'd want him to be immortal.

cant stand it man

[Archx]

Best regular season performer is a pick'em between Giannis and Harden.

But for me an MVP should take into account how players' games translate into high leverage playoff series since that's where there are real stakes. As much, my vote would go to either Lebron James or Anthony Davis, probably the latter at this point.

lol wut

I don't believe Harden's efficient ~40ppg or Giannis overall dominance are sustainable when it really counts given evidence from previous years. Otoh, I know Lebron and AD will be able to keep it up in the postseason and probably actually go up a gear.

When I think most valuable player, who I'd pick first if I needed to win a big series is a very important consideration

But this is a regular season award, not playoffs MVP? You can't take even Kawhi seriously because for most of the season his team mates will have to do the job for him when he is on load management. Doesn't matter if he can turn it up in the playoffs, you can't simply look at it this way.

[freethedevil]

Damn, Harden played a lot of minutes already.

That's because Houston has been outscored by 8.2 points per100 when he sits.

That's as opposed to the

Lakers (2.2)
Bucks (9.3) and
Mavs (12.1)

Value does not mean-> my team is really bad without me. By your criteria, trae young should be an mvp candidate. To calculate value you have to look at how good the team is with the player as well as without. Also, lets use metrics that actually have demonstrably accurate and bother to adjust for lineups.

PIPM -> Giannis 8.85, Harden -> 7.3
Backpicks BPM(Box heavy and favors offensive players) -> Giannis, 8.3. Harden, 7.5


Actually you know what, **** it, let's use the inaccurate ones, heavily offense biased ones too:
BPM -> Giannis, 12.5, Harden, 10.2
WS/48-> Giannis .308, Harden, .293


Everything says Giannis is more valuable, but it must be the media's fault that a high usage, big market, high volume iso scorer that no one thinks Harden's mvp.


You must not like people weighing Gianni's team success, and yet you specfically try to show one side of a stat that literally doesn't adjust for lineups. Funny how that works.

[Homer38]

At this point,this is over...Giannis will win the MVP if he stay heathly unless the lakers won close to 70 games…

The other 4 who are in the top 5 right now are in no order,LeBron,Davis,Harden and Luka.

[freethedevil]

Which of the 3 mvp candidates should finish second if the season ended today?

Strike 3 - user created a trolling thread by asking who is the MVP runners up and only listed Giannis, Harden, Luka. I tried to give you one more chance by asking you to clarify, but you refused to communicate.

[scrabbarista]

Damn, Harden played a lot of minutes already.

That's because Houston has been outscored by 8.2 points per100 when he sits.

That's as opposed to the

Lakers (2.2)
Bucks (9.3) and
Mavs (12.1)

Value does not mean-> my team is really bad without me. By your criteria, trae young should be an mvp candidate. To calculate value you have to look at how good the team is with the player as well as without.

I was assuming we all knew that these teams are good when their best players are on the court, but your Trae Young analogy shows I was wrong.

Here you go: "how good the team is with the player as well as without."

With: Without:

Anteto: 16.0 - 9.3
Doncic: 7.9 - 13.7
James: 12.4 - 2.3
Harde: 10.0 - -8.7
Young: -8.8 - -11.1

Those who followed this thread last season know I posted hundreds of times and made a concerted effort to rationalize my assertions with numbers. Often, I posted numbers without making any assertion at all. In spite of that, what I found was that the thread went in circles for nine months and rarely did anyone say, "Hmmm. That's a good point. Food for thought." Even rarer was for anyone to change their mind about who the MVP should be (which I did several times, including in the last week of the season). I tried for an entire season to convince anyone that the goal posts needed to be dug into the ground before a real contest could begin (my rationalization for using a formula). What I found instead was that this is a thread where the goal posts were constantly shifting depending on where everyone's favorite player was at. I'm not going to make any more comments in this thread this season. The only possible exception will be my rankings based on my formula. (I've stopped posting those indefinitely while the NBA decides what to do about taking away Harden's dunk.) This isn't an uninformed decision on my part. I have an entire season's worth of experience from which to draw - hundreds of my own comments and hundreds of responses. And that was when only Antetokounmpo and Harden were in the running; I didn't even having to consider Luka fans, Lakers fans, or LeBron fans, all of whom are known for being incredibly impartial. As I said in my last post, carry on with your MVP thread, RealGM. Everyone have fun in your echo chambers.

[ken6199]

Which of the 3 mvp candidates should finish second if the season ended today?

Can you explain in very clear words - why you left Lebron out of the poll. Was it an intention or just a typo?

[Homer38]

Russell Westbrook.

[NY 567]

Giannis
Doncic
LeBron
Harden