2025 NBA PLAYOFFS West First Round: #4 Denver Nuggets vs #5 LA Clippers (Series tied 1-1)

[hardenASG13]

Oh, no, I've seen every minute of this series. You're saying Jokic hasn't spent the majority of the time spamming handoff screens and slipping or popping out of them at the top of the key? I'm not sure how'd you deny this. Sick triple doubles and efficiency though.

The Clippers confused him - he said it himself in post-game 2 interview that they're sending defender from unexpected locations, so he's gotta read and react better.

I don't think it'll take a full series to figure it out...he adjusts pretty quickly to new ways of guarding him.

Yeah, that's what happens in playoff series vs. competent teams. What do you think he needs to adjust. I feel like he's got to attack quicker and get in the paint instead of standing with his back to the basket at the top of they waiting for handoffs and cutters. Or start on the block and just go to work. Alatan seems to think he's already doing that, though it's been crystal clear he hasn't in games 1 and 2.

[Alatan]

It's being pointed out because people on here have been saying for years that Jokic doesn't do it. Well, he's looked shook down the stretch of games 1 and 2 (turnovers, missed FTs, deferring to others, having that CP3 look in his face like he's about to cry) and resorted to flopping.

Yes there is a lot of contact against him. The bigger you are and the closer you get to the paint, there is more contact. He also gives it back a ton, with elbows and very borderline screens. I do disagree that he spends alot of time in the paint double and triple teamed. He's spending a lot of time at the top of the key/high post, often with his back to the basket. He does need to get on the block though, this high post dribble handoff/slip and pop stuff isn't going to cut it, even if it produces a triple double.

Jokic did not flop before this series. Maybe a couple of times per season but never like this. For the rest of your comment...You clearly dont watch Denver so il leave it at that.

That's why it's being brought up. It's noteworthy that he's doing it and has been doing it to really embarrassing levels. He isn't good at it haha.

Oh, no, I've seen every minute of this series. You're saying Jokic hasn't spent the majority of the time spamming handoff screens and slipping or popping out of them at the top of the key? I'm not sure how'd you deny this. Sick triple doubles and efficiency though.

They're going to get stomped tonight unless Jokic gets on the block alot more or Murray/Porter have big games.

When i said that Jokic spends a lot of the time in the post being double of triple teamed i am speaking generally about his body of work in the previous season and the others before. And i was doing it in the context of him getting relatively few FTA for how and where he plays. https://www.nba.com/stats/players/playtype-post-up?SeasonType=Regular%20Season&dir=D&sort=POSS

To suggest that Jokic needs to post up more in this series is direct evidence that you dont understand spacing. If Jokic would demand to post up in this series he would be doing so against Zubac, a very good post defender while being swarmed from all directions because neither of Braun, Gordon, WB, Watson or even Murray are reliable shooters. Jokic posting up would also allow Zubac to remain in the paint clogging up an already congested paint.

One of Jokics greatest weapons is his ability to pull the rim protector out of the paint clearing up space for cuts and drives while also being able to attack the paint him self or provide screen assists in DHOs. It is an incredibly deadly combination of skills that no team can defend effectively.

In the modern game post ups are reserved for certain moments in the game where the player has a favorable situation (mismatch, dominant position, defender in foul trouble, etc.) or as a last resort when the offense gets stagnant.

[hardenASG13]

Jokic did not flop before this series. Maybe a couple of times per season but never like this. For the rest of your comment...You clearly dont watch Denver so il leave it at that.

That's why it's being brought up. It's noteworthy that he's doing it and has been doing it to really embarrassing levels. He isn't good at it haha.

Oh, no, I've seen every minute of this series. You're saying Jokic hasn't spent the majority of the time spamming handoff screens and slipping or popping out of them at the top of the key? I'm not sure how'd you deny this. Sick triple doubles and efficiency though.

They're going to get stomped tonight unless Jokic gets on the block alot more or Murray/Porter have big games.

When i said that Jokic spends a lot of the time in the post being double of triple teamed i am speaking generally about his body of work in the previous season and the others before. And i was doing it in the context of him getting relatively few FTA for how and where he plays. https://www.nba.com/stats/players/playtype-post-up?SeasonType=Regular%20Season&dir=D&sort=POSS

To suggest that Jokic needs to post up more in this series is direct evidence that you dont understand spacing. If Jokic would demand to post up in this series he would be doing so against Zubac, a very good post defender while being swarmed from all directions because neither of Braun, Gordon, WB, Watson or even Murray are reliable shooters. Jokic posting up would also allow Zubac to remain in the paint clogging up an already congested paint.

One of Jokics greatest weapons is his ability to pull the rim protector out of the paint clearing up space for cuts and drives while also being able to attack the paint him self or provide screen assists in DHOs. It is an incredibly deadly combination of skills that no team can defend effectively.

In the modern game post ups are reserved for certain moments in the game where the player has a favorable situation (mismatch, dominant position, defender in foul trouble, etc.) or as a last resort when the offense gets stagnant.

What about if instead of catching it at the top and standing there with his back to the basket he faced up, dribbled into the paint or block areas, and went to his spin/flip shots, which he's really good at? Right now what he's doing is producing numbers, playing too passive, and not dominating games. Which they need him to do.

Yes, Zubac is a good interior defender. But isn't Jokic supposed to the GOAT offensive player? Those type of players do work against good defenders. What if he was more aggressive and gets Zubac into foul trouble instead of passively playing his top of the key game? Do you think that'd be a problem for LA? Do they have any depth, at all behind zubac? He wouldn't even have to do the flopping, and LA will be at his mercy if zubac is in foul trouble, unless you think Simmons and Batum can slow him down? Right now LA can handle what he's doing at the top, he'll get his numbers at the expense of dribble penetration in their offense (they don't collapse the defense very well, in part because Jokic isn't driving enough) and they'll probably lose yet another series vs a team capable of playing with them.

[Alatan]

That's why it's being brought up. It's noteworthy that he's doing it and has been doing it to really embarrassing levels. He isn't good at it haha.

Oh, no, I've seen every minute of this series. You're saying Jokic hasn't spent the majority of the time spamming handoff screens and slipping or popping out of them at the top of the key? I'm not sure how'd you deny this. Sick triple doubles and efficiency though.

They're going to get stomped tonight unless Jokic gets on the block alot more or Murray/Porter have big games.

When i said that Jokic spends a lot of the time in the post being double of triple teamed i am speaking generally about his body of work in the previous season and the others before. And i was doing it in the context of him getting relatively few FTA for how and where he plays. https://www.nba.com/stats/players/playtype-post-up?SeasonType=Regular%20Season&dir=D&sort=POSS

To suggest that Jokic needs to post up more in this series is direct evidence that you dont understand spacing. If Jokic would demand to post up in this series he would be doing so against Zubac, a very good post defender while being swarmed from all directions because neither of Braun, Gordon, WB, Watson or even Murray are reliable shooters. Jokic posting up would also allow Zubac to remain in the paint clogging up an already congested paint.

One of Jokics greatest weapons is his ability to pull the rim protector out of the paint clearing up space for cuts and drives while also being able to attack the paint him self or provide screen assists in DHOs. It is an incredibly deadly combination of skills that no team can defend effectively.

In the modern game post ups are reserved for certain moments in the game where the player has a favorable situation (mismatch, dominant position, defender in foul trouble, etc.) or as a last resort when the offense gets stagnant.

What about if instead of catching it at the top and standing there with his back to the basket he faced up, dribbled into the paint or block areas, and went to his spin/flip shots, which he's really good at? Right now what he's doing is producing numbers, playing too passive, and not dominating games. Which they need him to do.

Yes, Zubac is a good interior defender. But isn't Jokic supposed to the GOAT offensive player? Those type of players do work against good defenders. What if he was more aggressive and gets Zubac into foul trouble instead of passively playing his top of the key game? Do you think that'd be a problem for LA? Do they have any depth, at all behind zubac? He wouldn't even have to do the flopping, and LA will be at his mercy if zubac is in foul trouble, unless you think Simmons and Batum can slow him down? Right now LA can handle what he's doing at the top, he'll get his numbers at the expense of dribble penetration in their offense (they don't collapse the defense very well, in part because Jokic isn't driving enough) and they'll probably lose yet another series vs a team capable of playing with them.

As i said. If Jokic demanded to post up to prove something against Zubac it would be at the determent to the team since it would kill the spacing and force the rest of the team to create for themselves witch non of them know to do. Not even Murray who relies on hail Marry shots and the luck of Gods to generate his offense.

And who said that the Clippers are able to contain the offense Jokic is creating. They are 1-1 thanks to Kawhi having an aimbot night. The offense is not the problem. Defense and individual play of some Nuggets is. I just hope MPJs shoulder forces him to miss the rest of the playoffs because he is painful to watch.

[hardenASG13]

When i said that Jokic spends a lot of the time in the post being double of triple teamed i am speaking generally about his body of work in the previous season and the others before. And i was doing it in the context of him getting relatively few FTA for how and where he plays. https://www.nba.com/stats/players/playtype-post-up?SeasonType=Regular%20Season&dir=D&sort=POSS

To suggest that Jokic needs to post up more in this series is direct evidence that you dont understand spacing. If Jokic would demand to post up in this series he would be doing so against Zubac, a very good post defender while being swarmed from all directions because neither of Braun, Gordon, WB, Watson or even Murray are reliable shooters. Jokic posting up would also allow Zubac to remain in the paint clogging up an already congested paint.

One of Jokics greatest weapons is his ability to pull the rim protector out of the paint clearing up space for cuts and drives while also being able to attack the paint him self or provide screen assists in DHOs. It is an incredibly deadly combination of skills that no team can defend effectively.

In the modern game post ups are reserved for certain moments in the game where the player has a favorable situation (mismatch, dominant position, defender in foul trouble, etc.) or as a last resort when the offense gets stagnant.

What about if instead of catching it at the top and standing there with his back to the basket he faced up, dribbled into the paint or block areas, and went to his spin/flip shots, which he's really good at? Right now what he's doing is producing numbers, playing too passive, and not dominating games. Which they need him to do.

Yes, Zubac is a good interior defender. But isn't Jokic supposed to the GOAT offensive player? Those type of players do work against good defenders. What if he was more aggressive and gets Zubac into foul trouble instead of passively playing his top of the key game? Do you think that'd be a problem for LA? Do they have any depth, at all behind zubac? He wouldn't even have to do the flopping, and LA will be at his mercy if zubac is in foul trouble, unless you think Simmons and Batum can slow him down? Right now LA can handle what he's doing at the top, he'll get his numbers at the expense of dribble penetration in their offense (they don't collapse the defense very well, in part because Jokic isn't driving enough) and they'll probably lose yet another series vs a team capable of playing with them.

As i said. If Jokic demanded to post up to prove something against Zubac it would be at the determent to the team since it would kill the spacing and force the rest of the team to create for themselves witch non of them know to do. Not even Murray who relies on hail Marry shots and the luck of Gods to generate his offense.

And who said that the Clippers are able to contain the offense Jokic is creating. They are 1-1 thanks to Kawhi having an aimbot night. The offense is not the problem. Defense and individual play of some Nuggets is. I just hope MPJs shoulder forces him to miss the rest of the playoffs because he is painful to watch.

Yeah I think jokic is a big part of that defensive problem. Game 1 first half was really bad. Their offense is going to have to be better, because I don't see the defense improving all that much. They have to overwhelm teams offensively to win, they aren't going to do it defensively. LAs role players are no better than Denvers, either.

[OkcSinceSGA]

When i said that Jokic spends a lot of the time in the post being double of triple teamed i am speaking generally about his body of work in the previous season and the others before. And i was doing it in the context of him getting relatively few FTA for how and where he plays. https://www.nba.com/stats/players/playtype-post-up?SeasonType=Regular%20Season&dir=D&sort=POSS

To suggest that Jokic needs to post up more in this series is direct evidence that you dont understand spacing. If Jokic would demand to post up in this series he would be doing so against Zubac, a very good post defender while being swarmed from all directions because neither of Braun, Gordon, WB, Watson or even Murray are reliable shooters. Jokic posting up would also allow Zubac to remain in the paint clogging up an already congested paint.

One of Jokics greatest weapons is his ability to pull the rim protector out of the paint clearing up space for cuts and drives while also being able to attack the paint him self or provide screen assists in DHOs. It is an incredibly deadly combination of skills that no team can defend effectively.

In the modern game post ups are reserved for certain moments in the game where the player has a favorable situation (mismatch, dominant position, defender in foul trouble, etc.) or as a last resort when the offense gets stagnant.

What about if instead of catching it at the top and standing there with his back to the basket he faced up, dribbled into the paint or block areas, and went to his spin/flip shots, which he's really good at? Right now what he's doing is producing numbers, playing too passive, and not dominating games. Which they need him to do.

Yes, Zubac is a good interior defender. But isn't Jokic supposed to the GOAT offensive player? Those type of players do work against good defenders. What if he was more aggressive and gets Zubac into foul trouble instead of passively playing his top of the key game? Do you think that'd be a problem for LA? Do they have any depth, at all behind zubac? He wouldn't even have to do the flopping, and LA will be at his mercy if zubac is in foul trouble, unless you think Simmons and Batum can slow him down? Right now LA can handle what he's doing at the top, he'll get his numbers at the expense of dribble penetration in their offense (they don't collapse the defense very well, in part because Jokic isn't driving enough) and they'll probably lose yet another series vs a team capable of playing with them.

As i said. If Jokic demanded to post up to prove something against Zubac it would be at the determent to the team since it would kill the spacing and force the rest of the team to create for themselves witch non of them know to do. Not even Murray who relies on hail Marry shots and the luck of Gods to generate his offense.

And who said that the Clippers are able to contain the offense Jokic is creating. They are 1-1 thanks to Kawhi having an aimbot night. The offense is not the problem. Defense and individual play of some Nuggets is. I just hope MPJs shoulder forces him to miss the rest of the playoffs because he is painful to watch.

By his top 5 stats all time stats Jokic has been contained. He hasn’t crossed 30, he’s shot 10% worse than usual and his attempts are down a bit. When guarded by Zu it’s worse.

Tonight will show us how it’s really gonna go this series. The Clippers are a super dominant home team after the weird 0-4 start in the new arena. The Clippers are night and day different, especially with role players. And now they get the elevation boost+ crowd. If Denver can split obviously it’s anyone’s series. If the Clippers kick their ass these games… no repeat of 2020.

[ejftw]

That being said, can anyone objectively and with a straight face look at this game and say that Jokic’s flopping and theatrics was fine?

I'm okay with it if gets him the whistle he's earned for the rest of the series. A couple embarrassing flops to ensure they call fouls that are FOULS...I'll ta kke it.

He gets the Shaq treatment because he's the strongest player in the league.

Does that include calling a foul on him for elbowing an aerial player? Which, in this league should be a Flag 1.

Or when he winds up and almost hits Zu in the back of the neck. That should be a Flag 1?

Or a Tech for each flop?

Also, should Zu act like Nicole Jobitch and flop when looked at to get calls?

Edit: to add, when he runs into stationary guys, like happened with Simmons twice, that foul should be called on his as well, correct? Instead of him being gifted for being softer than Pau? Or when he jumped onto Dunn? That should be offensive as well? Or when he HOOKED Zu multiple times on rebounds, those should be called on him and not Zu?

Along with all the travels?

Or nah, are we going to justify all that because MuHhHhH hE dOeSnT gEt AnY cAlLs

It would be embarrassing if that was a season highlight reel of flops for a player. Jokic did most of that in just a 2nd half.

Lol no it wouldn't - go check out the flopping highlight reels of some other recent MVP candidates/winners on youtube...

Link?

[Alatan]

What about if instead of catching it at the top and standing there with his back to the basket he faced up, dribbled into the paint or block areas, and went to his spin/flip shots, which he's really good at? Right now what he's doing is producing numbers, playing too passive, and not dominating games. Which they need him to do.

Yes, Zubac is a good interior defender. But isn't Jokic supposed to the GOAT offensive player? Those type of players do work against good defenders. What if he was more aggressive and gets Zubac into foul trouble instead of passively playing his top of the key game? Do you think that'd be a problem for LA? Do they have any depth, at all behind zubac? He wouldn't even have to do the flopping, and LA will be at his mercy if zubac is in foul trouble, unless you think Simmons and Batum can slow him down? Right now LA can handle what he's doing at the top, he'll get his numbers at the expense of dribble penetration in their offense (they don't collapse the defense very well, in part because Jokic isn't driving enough) and they'll probably lose yet another series vs a team capable of playing with them.

As i said. If Jokic demanded to post up to prove something against Zubac it would be at the determent to the team since it would kill the spacing and force the rest of the team to create for themselves witch non of them know to do. Not even Murray who relies on hail Marry shots and the luck of Gods to generate his offense.

And who said that the Clippers are able to contain the offense Jokic is creating. They are 1-1 thanks to Kawhi having an aimbot night. The offense is not the problem. Defense and individual play of some Nuggets is. I just hope MPJs shoulder forces him to miss the rest of the playoffs because he is painful to watch.

By his top 5 stats all time stats Jokic has been contained. He hasn’t crossed 30, he’s shot 10% worse than usual and his attempts are down a bit. When guarded by Zu it’s worse.

Tonight will show us how it’s really gonna go this series. The Clippers are a super dominant home team after the weird 0-4 start in the new arena. The Clippers are night and day different, especially with role players. And now they get the elevation boost+ crowd. If Denver can split obviously it’s anyone’s series. If the Clippers kick their ass these games… no repeat of 2020.

I would not say Jokic is contained but he was a bit passive in the 1st half of the 1st game. Its still just 2 games so its too early to speak of any containment.
I dont expect the Nuggets to win this series as i dont value Denvers cast at all witch is apparent in my post history. But i do think that there is a chance since Harden is known to lay a few eggs in the POs and Kawhis knees could act up in any moment. Honestly im amazed how Powell hasnt torched the Nuggets instead of sucking. As is, I cant complain with the current results.

[ejftw]

Anyways, Bogdanovic is 0-8 on the series, Flight 55 is 4-11, Dunn is 6-15 and Stormin Norman is 10-26. From the arc, that quartet is 7-26 for a whopping 26.9%.

As likely as it is that Kawhi won't shoot 70.6% the rest of the series, or Harden be only at 3 giveaways, it's just as likely as those four continue to struggle.

[Alatan]

What about if instead of catching it at the top and standing there with his back to the basket he faced up, dribbled into the paint or block areas, and went to his spin/flip shots, which he's really good at? Right now what he's doing is producing numbers, playing too passive, and not dominating games. Which they need him to do.

Yes, Zubac is a good interior defender. But isn't Jokic supposed to the GOAT offensive player? Those type of players do work against good defenders. What if he was more aggressive and gets Zubac into foul trouble instead of passively playing his top of the key game? Do you think that'd be a problem for LA? Do they have any depth, at all behind zubac? He wouldn't even have to do the flopping, and LA will be at his mercy if zubac is in foul trouble, unless you think Simmons and Batum can slow him down? Right now LA can handle what he's doing at the top, he'll get his numbers at the expense of dribble penetration in their offense (they don't collapse the defense very well, in part because Jokic isn't driving enough) and they'll probably lose yet another series vs a team capable of playing with them.

As i said. If Jokic demanded to post up to prove something against Zubac it would be at the determent to the team since it would kill the spacing and force the rest of the team to create for themselves witch non of them know to do. Not even Murray who relies on hail Marry shots and the luck of Gods to generate his offense.

And who said that the Clippers are able to contain the offense Jokic is creating. They are 1-1 thanks to Kawhi having an aimbot night. The offense is not the problem. Defense and individual play of some Nuggets is. I just hope MPJs shoulder forces him to miss the rest of the playoffs because he is painful to watch.

Yeah I think jokic is a big part of that defensive problem. Game 1 first half was really bad. Their offense is going to have to be better, because I don't see the defense improving all that much. They have to overwhelm teams offensively to win, they aren't going to do it defensively. LAs role players are no better than Denvers, either.

Jokic did suck in the first half but he switched gears in the 2nd. Defense from the C spot is really important but at some point we need to think how much are we asking from a single player. But still he cant be just a matador as he sometimes is.
Anyway, it is difficult to have a good defense with as many mediocre to bad defenders the Nuggets have. I have a rule of thumb that a team needs to have 3 solid defensive players to be capable of covering for the weaknesses of the 2 not so good ones. Murray and MPJ are clearly awful defenders and you cant play them both next to Jokic and expect to have a good defense. Jokic is a player that gets much better defensively if he is surrounded with good defensive players. More than your typical below average defender that gets a reduced role since his good defensive attributes (disrupting passing lanes, deflecting, rebounding, reading the offense and defensive coordination, etc.) get to shine. While if he is surrounded by bad defenders his weaknesses (rim protection, lateral mobility) get exposed and magnified.

TLDR The Nuggets cant play MPJ.

[Special_Puppy]

Anyways, Bogdanovic is 0-8 on the series, Flight 55 is 4-11, Dunn is 6-15 and Stormin Norman is 10-26. From the arc, that quartet is 7-26 for a whopping 26.9%.

As likely as it is that Kawhi won't shoot 70.6% the rest of the series, or Harden be only at 3 giveaways, it's just as likely as those four continue to struggle.

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All else being equal the Nuggets probably benefit on net from shot making regressing to the mean

[Cubbies2120]

What about if instead of catching it at the top and standing there with his back to the basket he faced up, dribbled into the paint or block areas, and went to his spin/flip shots, which he's really good at? Right now what he's doing is producing numbers, playing too passive, and not dominating games. Which they need him to do.

I pointed this out in previous post (I think right after g2) - what you're suggesting, he's tried and what happens is (lets say he's being shaded to his right) by Zu:

1. Zubac shading right
2. Help defender cheats over a little bit from right corner
3. At same time, from left corner, help defender (Dunn I believe) cuts over to the paint, anticipating his go to spin he uses to create an angle for a shot

I'm sure they'll point that out in film sessions because that defense worked a few possessions on him.

In an evenly matched game like that, those key possessions can make the difference.

[KL2]

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[bisme37]

Sorry to jump in while you guys are actively posting but the thread will likely go past 100 pages tonight, so I made a new one now: https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2455279