76ers back to fining Ben Simmons

[dhsilv2]

Just throwing this out there: ESPN ranked Simmons as the 28th best player going into this season. You add his contract and this absurd circus show, and his value drops further behind other top 25 players. And if this does take 2 years, his value drops further because the longer a player sits out, the more question marks there are that make a player risky.

His contract is a plus.........

[Myth]

Just throwing this out there: ESPN ranked Simmons as the 28th best player going into this season. You add his contract and this absurd circus show, and his value drops further behind other top 25 players. And if this does take 2 years, his value drops further because the longer a player sits out, the more question marks there are that make a player risky.

His contract is a plus.........

That may be subjective depending on the team. The length is good, but others have repeatedly stated that $34-38M per year is too rich for a player who can’t/won’t shoot and has limited leadership abilities. He is paid like a top 15 player, which he clearly is not.

[dhsilv2]

Just throwing this out there: ESPN ranked Simmons as the 28th best player going into this season. You add his contract and this absurd circus show, and his value drops further behind other top 25 players. And if this does take 2 years, his value drops further because the longer a player sits out, the more question marks there are that make a player risky.

His contract is a plus.........

That may be subjective depending on the team. The length is good, but others have repeatedly stated that $34-38M per year is too rich for a player who can’t/won’t shoot and has limited leadership abilities. He is paid like a top 15 player, which he clearly is not.

He isn't paid like a top 15 player....he's paid like a top 35 guy at most....and by the end of the deal he might not even be a top 100 guy with the new tv deal coming.

[Nuntius]

The Sixers failed (miserably) to win last year with Simmons, how are they expected to win by trading Simmons for lesser pieces?

Because fit matters. The fit between Simmons and Embiid is catastrophic, in my opinion. It is the kind of fit that brings down both players and the team as a whole. I believe that the Sixers would improve drastically if they were to trade Simmons for a player who may be worse overall (you know, if 2k's overall ratings actually mattered on the court; they don't) but fits much, much better with their true star, Embiid.

Morey has to wait for a star to become available, precisely because of Embiid's age / health concerns. The Sixers simply cant afford to make a bad trade, if they are forced to do it they will likely have to rebuild themselves very soon.

Embiid becomes 28 in 3 months. A player with his injury history won't be in his prime for long (especially when you take into account the amount of minutes that he has to play right now to keep Philly competitive). Their window is only open for a couple of years, at best. They cannot afford to wait until that miracle happens.

[Nuntius]

I'd agree with you if I agreed Simmons turned his team into playing 4 on 5 in the half court. That almost never actually happens. And a lot of it is poor fit with Embiid and bad coaching around him. Not to mention some down right idiotic and incompetent moves by Brand.

It is pretty clear that we disagree on some pretty crucial stuff then (like the 4 vs 5 in the half court part). That's alright. We can agree to disagree. I do agree with you about his fit with Embiid, though.

That said our opinions don't matter here. What matters are coaches and GM's who seem to feel differently from you and much more like I am.

I agree that our opinions don't matter all that much. I also agree that the opinions that matter are those of coaches and GMs. That said, I'm not so sure that their opinions are as close to yours as you seem to believe. We'll see, though. Time is often the best judge

[Nuntius]

Now with that said, the nba is about money. And Ben is one of the most fun players there is imo for a team that's not a contender. He's a fast break at all times, and his upside is insane. I think you're thinking too big picture "elitist" fan vs what a GM has to think about which is who sell tickets

That is a good point, by the way. As fans, we tend to be idealistic. We tend to think about what our teams should do if their ultimate goal was to win a title. But the fact is that not all owners are in it to win a title. Some just see it as a business and want to make a profit (especially if their other businesses are failing). Not all owners are comfortable with tanking (even if it can ultimately lead to titles) because they're afraid of the loss in revenue. That's why some teams would favor a quick retool over an all-out rebuild.

And if your intent is to just retool and sell tickets while doing that then, yes, Ben Simmons is great for that. He definitely plays an entertaining brand of basketball that can sell tickets.

[Myth]

His contract is a plus.........

That may be subjective depending on the team. The length is good, but others have repeatedly stated that $34-38M per year is too rich for a player who can’t/won’t shoot and has limited leadership abilities. He is paid like a top 15 player, which he clearly is not.

He isn't paid like a top 15 player....he's paid like a top 35 guy at most....and by the end of the deal he might not even be a top 100 guy with the new tv deal coming.

Looked it up. He is paid 20th highest salary per year (only $2M less than the 15th highest, who is Anthony Davis). Many of the players below his salary are better and actually playing. Tobias Harris is the only player worse than him paid more. There are a couple players above him that were better players but also not playing currently.

[sfballa13]

Rip off? There still hasn't been an offer of a player they want that we're aware of.

I feel like I'm living in crazy world where everyone's watching a different thing. The 76ers want a top 25 player. There isn't one available. And thus we wait...

Morey has said what he wants, obviously if someone came in and said "how about CJ" the answer would be "no" and if you said "what else can we add in?" Then sure he might throw out 5 picks or something crazy...because CJ isn't a legit offer.

The underlined is exactly the problem here. The 76ers want a top 25 player for a player who isn't worth as much. Simmons is worth a top 50 player, at best. He is severely flawed, especially on the offensive end, and his particular flaws are anathema in this NBA era.

Morey is overvaluing his assets and that's where pride and ego kick in. He isn't going to accept that his evaluation is wrong so nothing will get done.

He's a top 25 player, at 25, with a long term deal. He is the most valuable player ever to be on the market like this. You're crazy if you think he's not worth what Morey is asking. Once a star demands out, this will all get resolved.

Ben Simmons is the most valuable player to ever be on the market? Every time I click this thread im met with funnier and funnier posts.

Simmons is a disgruntled player coming off one of the worst playoff series in NBA history in which he was destroyed by his coach, star teammate, and media.

He has been asking out for 5 months and has sat out the entire season so far.

This is literally the definition of the most talented player with the lowest trade value in NBA history.

And you want other teams to throw in FIVE picks in a trade for him?

[anotherhomer]

The underlined is exactly the problem here. The 76ers want a top 25 player for a player who isn't worth as much. Simmons is worth a top 50 player, at best. He is severely flawed, especially on the offensive end, and his particular flaws are anathema in this NBA era.

Morey is overvaluing his assets and that's where pride and ego kick in. He isn't going to accept that his evaluation is wrong so nothing will get done.

He's a top 25 player, at 25, with a long term deal. He is the most valuable player ever to be on the market like this. You're crazy if you think he's not worth what Morey is asking. Once a star demands out, this will all get resolved.

Ben Simmons is the most valuable player to ever be on the market? Every time I click this thread im met with funnier and funnier posts.

Simmons is a disgruntled player coming off one of the worst playoff series in NBA history in which he was destroyed by his coach, star teammate, and media.

He has been asking out for 5 months and has sat out the entire season so far.

This is literally the definition of the most talented player with the lowest trade value in NBA history.

And you want other teams to throw in FIVE picks in a trade for him?

Sixers missed out on a really good window to trade him.

Pascal (straight up)
OG & FVV plus 2nd round pick (that would had been really good) for Sixers, having 2 knockdown shooters who play good D, and can create their own shot a bit.
Brodgon and Lavert
McCollum & picks/young player

I doubt Morey has the leadership skills to smooth over any issues with Ben

[DeBlazerRiddem]

I want to say this in the most respectful way possible.

Nobody really give a fly crap about our opinions.

yeah you got that right

Now with that said, the nba is about money. And Ben is one of the most fun players there is imo for a team that's not a contender. He's a fast break at all times, and his upside is insane. I think you're thinking too big picture "elitist" fan vs what a GM has to think about which is who sell tickets

I get that, I know that what I am saying is from the perspective of a fan and often GM's have to take a different view, justifying their continued employment year-by-year leading to short term strategies. But that doesn't mean I gotta like it...

[sp6r=underrated]

Just throwing this out there: ESPN ranked Simmons as the 28th best player going into this season. You add his contract and this absurd circus show, and his value drops further behind other top 25 players. And if this does take 2 years, his value drops further because the longer a player sits out, the more question marks there are that make a player risky.

His contract is a plus.........

That may be subjective depending on the team. The length is good, but others have repeatedly stated that $34-38M per year is too rich for a player who can’t/won’t shoot and has limited leadership abilities. He is paid like a top 15 player, which he clearly is not.

All top 50 players/rookies are underpaid due to max salaries/rookie cap. Average veterans are the ones grossly overpaid relative to production.

His compensation is under his value. the concern with him is will he play anywhere long-term that isn't in a market he likes.

[sfballa13]

He's a top 25 player, at 25, with a long term deal. He is the most valuable player ever to be on the market like this. You're crazy if you think he's not worth what Morey is asking. Once a star demands out, this will all get resolved.

Ben Simmons is the most valuable player to ever be on the market? Every time I click this thread im met with funnier and funnier posts.

Simmons is a disgruntled player coming off one of the worst playoff series in NBA history in which he was destroyed by his coach, star teammate, and media.

He has been asking out for 5 months and has sat out the entire season so far.

This is literally the definition of the most talented player with the lowest trade value in NBA history.

And you want other teams to throw in FIVE picks in a trade for him?

Sixers missed out on a really good window to trade him.

Pascal (straight up)
OG & FVV plus 2nd round pick (that would had been really good) for Sixers, having 2 knockdown shooters who play good D, and can create their own shot a bit.
Brodgon and Lavert
McCollum & picks/young player

I doubt Morey has the leadership skills to smooth over any issues with Ben

Exactly. He had a window and that has passed.

In any professional sports league, once a player demands out, all leverage from the front office goes out the window. It's been like that for decades.

Morey publicly tried to trade Simmons despite the Sixers being #1 or close to the #1 seed in the East at the time with Simmons having a better than average season.

When that backfired, his coach and star teammate put him on blast for a bad series (despite Simmons averaging nearly a triple double on 60%+ shooting in the playoffs while guarding the opposition's best player)

What followed was a **** storm of negativity from fans and Philly media.

After all that there is not one professional athlete who would return to that situation, esp with the hostile fans in Philly.

Morey never planned on smoothing any issues with Ben, he like everyone else, knew Ben wasnt ever going to wear a Sixers uniform again.

What Morey thought he could do was get max value for a player that had requested out and that wasnt the case. There was even a period of time before Simmons asked out publicly probably 1-2 weeks after he privately requested a trade. That was the time to make a move.

Morey has accomplished nothing in 15+ years as a GM. No Finals appearances, no championships.

Joe Dumars, who is widely thought of as a sub-par to terrible GM, accomplished more in 10 years than Morey has in 15 years and he didnt have any superstars like Harden/Chris Paul/Joel Embiid.

Short of a disgruntled star asking out in the next 8 weeks, Simmons will be traded for pennies on the dollar whether that's this season or in the offseason.

I understand that Sixers fans are upset but to think that a team would offer multiple 1st round picks AND a young superstar for a guy who is willing to sit out an entire season and give up 25-30M is absurd

[VDT]

Because fit matters. The fit between Simmons and Embiid is catastrophic, in my opinion. It is the kind of fit that brings down both players and the team as a whole. I believe that the Sixers would improve drastically if they were to trade Simmons for a player who may be worse overall (you know, if 2k's overall ratings actually mattered on the court; they don't) but fits much, much better with their true star, Embiid.

Fit matters but talent trumps all in the NBA. Sadly, the Sixers need both a better fit and a talent upgrade. Breaking Simmons into lesser better fitting pieces won't get them anywhere. They need to find a trade that upgrades their talent and offers them a better fit and they should be ready to give multiple picks, along with Simmons, to get that. Of course every team is looking for this kind of trades which is why discussions are going nowhere until a team is forced to compromise.

Embiid becomes 28 in 3 months. A player with his injury history won't be in his prime for long (especially when you take into account the amount of minutes that he has to play right now to keep Philly competitive). Their window is only open for a couple of years, at best. They cannot afford to wait until that miracle happens.

That's precisely the reason Morey is not accepting the trash trades other teams are offering (totally justified on their part of course). If Embiid could be realistically expected to have 5-6 more prime/peak years the Sixers could maybe afford to "lose" the trade and retool in a few years. As it is now, they cant afford that, so any trade they do must get them to contender status or at least better that what they had last year. "Retooling' by getting lesser talent while not having the cap space to make big moves is the shortest way to a rebuild and Morey losing his job.

[Nuntius]

Fit matters but talent trumps all in the NBA. Sadly, the Sixers need both a better fit and a talent upgrade. Breaking Simmons into lesser better fitting pieces won't get them anywhere. They need to find a trade that upgrades their talent and offers them a better fit and they should be ready to give multiple picks, along with Simmons, to get that. Of course every team is looking for this kind of trades which is why discussions are going nowhere until a team is forced to compromise.

Talent trumps all indeed and the Sixers have a ton of talent. The Sixers were the 1st seed last year and Embiid is a top 5-8 player. All they need to do is to surround him with players who can shoot, defend the perimeter and create their own shot when needed. They don't need to be stars. They just need to fit. It is why Seth Curry has been so, so good next to Embiid. He was considered a bit player earlier in his career but he has grown into a legit good starter for Philly and a big part of it is how well he fits next to Embiid.

That's precisely the reason Morey is not accepting the trash trades other teams are offering (totally justified on their part of course). If Embiid could be realistically expected to have 5-6 more prime/peak years the Sixers could maybe afford to "lose" the trade and retool in a few years. As it is now, they cant afford that, so any trade they do must get them to contender status or at least better that what they had last year. "Retooling' by getting lesser talent while not having the cap space to make big moves is the shortest way to a rebuild and Morey losing his job.

5-6 more prime/peak years? Sorry but I wholeheartedly disagree with that. Embiid has 2-3 more prime/peak years left at best. Embiid just won't be the player that he currently is when he's past 30. His injury history is just way too severe which is why the Sixers should look to get something done this year. Their title window with Embiid is very, very small and they need to attack it as soon as possible.

[VDT]

Talent trumps all indeed and the Sixers have a ton of talent. The Sixers were the 1st seed last year and Embiid is a top 5-8 player. All they need to do is to surround him with players who can shoot, defend the perimeter and create their own shot when needed. They don't need to be stars. They just need to fit. It is why Seth Curry has been so, so good next to Embiid. He was considered a bit player earlier in his career but he has grown into a legit good starter for Philly and a big part of it is how well he fits next to Embiid.

The Sixers lost to a young Hawks team last year. Anything can happen, but saying that they just need to get a better fit, while lowering the overall talent on the team, is misguided imo. Also, guys that can create their own shot (efficiently) are what people call stars and it is indeed what the Sixers need

5-6 more prime/peak years? Sorry but I wholeheartedly disagree with that. Embiid has 2-3 more prime/peak years left at best. Embiid just won't be the player that he currently is when he's past 30. His injury history is just way too severe which is why the Sixers should look to get something done this year. Their title window with Embiid is very, very small and they need to attack it as soon as possible.

No, i said that if Embiid had actually 5-6 prime/peak years left they Sixers could afford to take a step back and retool. Since he likely hasnt, the Sixers need to get this trade right or they will have to rebuild.

[dhsilv2]

That may be subjective depending on the team. The length is good, but others have repeatedly stated that $34-38M per year is too rich for a player who can’t/won’t shoot and has limited leadership abilities. He is paid like a top 15 player, which he clearly is not.

He isn't paid like a top 15 player....he's paid like a top 35 guy at most....and by the end of the deal he might not even be a top 100 guy with the new tv deal coming.

Looked it up. He is paid 20th highest salary per year (only $2M less than the 15th highest, who is Anthony Davis). Many of the players below his salary are better and actually playing. Tobias Harris is the only player worse than him paid more. There are a couple players above him that were better players but also not playing currently.

If that were how the cap worked, then sure. But that's not how the cap really works. A guy like Donic can't get paid more. So you can be the 20th highest paid guy and still only be paid like a top 35 player. Also, you tend to get paid more the more recent your contract was signed (I suppose the cap might stop growing but we'll see). Thus if someone is a roughly top 40 guy and they meet the standards for a 30% max, you give them that 30% max. It's what the market thinks these guys are worth.

[dhsilv2]

The underlined is exactly the problem here. The 76ers want a top 25 player for a player who isn't worth as much. Simmons is worth a top 50 player, at best. He is severely flawed, especially on the offensive end, and his particular flaws are anathema in this NBA era.

Morey is overvaluing his assets and that's where pride and ego kick in. He isn't going to accept that his evaluation is wrong so nothing will get done.

He's a top 25 player, at 25, with a long term deal. He is the most valuable player ever to be on the market like this. You're crazy if you think he's not worth what Morey is asking. Once a star demands out, this will all get resolved.

Ben Simmons is the most valuable player to ever be on the market? Every time I click this thread im met with funnier and funnier posts.

Simmons is a disgruntled player coming off one of the worst playoff series in NBA history in which he was destroyed by his coach, star teammate, and media.

He has been asking out for 5 months and has sat out the entire season so far.

This is literally the definition of the most talented player with the lowest trade value in NBA history.

And you want other teams to throw in FIVE picks in a trade for him?

I never said that...

[Pointgod]

He's a top 25 player, at 25, with a long term deal. He is the most valuable player ever to be on the market like this. You're crazy if you think he's not worth what Morey is asking. Once a star demands out, this will all get resolved.

Ben Simmons is the most valuable player to ever be on the market? Every time I click this thread im met with funnier and funnier posts.

Simmons is a disgruntled player coming off one of the worst playoff series in NBA history in which he was destroyed by his coach, star teammate, and media.

He has been asking out for 5 months and has sat out the entire season so far.

This is literally the definition of the most talented player with the lowest trade value in NBA history.

And you want other teams to throw in FIVE picks in a trade for him?

Sixers missed out on a really good window to trade him.

Pascal (straight up)
OG & FVV plus 2nd round pick (that would had been really good) for Sixers, having 2 knockdown shooters who play good D, and can create their own shot a bit.
Brodgon and Lavert
McCollum & picks/young player

I doubt Morey has the leadership skills to smooth over any issues with Ben

Sixers fans have been blinded conned by Morey into believing they could get a better deal than any of the ones mentioned above. What they’ll never acknowledge is that all of the trades above would have also come with multiple picks which teams trading a top 25 player actually want. The best time to trade him was during the draft before teams had made their picks and free agency started. It’s much easier to shape a team around Ben Simmons than add him to an existing team during the season and risk messing up team chemistry. But big brain Morey had to get into a pissing contest and once Simmons started sitting Morey’s leverage went out the window. No team is going to give up all their assets for a player that they don’t know might end up sitting a year from now. Morey played this badly by being this arrogant. Even if Simmons comes back to play the damage has been done.

[Pointgod]

Ben Simmons is the most valuable player to ever be on the market? Every time I click this thread im met with funnier and funnier posts.

Simmons is a disgruntled player coming off one of the worst playoff series in NBA history in which he was destroyed by his coach, star teammate, and media.

He has been asking out for 5 months and has sat out the entire season so far.

This is literally the definition of the most talented player with the lowest trade value in NBA history.

And you want other teams to throw in FIVE picks in a trade for him?

Sixers missed out on a really good window to trade him.

Pascal (straight up)
OG & FVV plus 2nd round pick (that would had been really good) for Sixers, having 2 knockdown shooters who play good D, and can create their own shot a bit.
Brodgon and Lavert
McCollum & picks/young player

I doubt Morey has the leadership skills to smooth over any issues with Ben

Exactly. He had a window and that has passed.

In any professional sports league, once a player demands out, all leverage from the front office goes out the window. It's been like that for decades.

Morey publicly tried to trade Simmons despite the Sixers being #1 or close to the #1 seed in the East at the time with Simmons having a better than average season.

When that backfired, his coach and star teammate put him on blast for a bad series (despite Simmons averaging nearly a triple double on 60%+ shooting in the playoffs while guarding the opposition's best player)

What followed was a **** storm of negativity from fans and Philly media.

After all that there is not one professional athlete who would return to that situation, esp with the hostile fans in Philly.

Morey never planned on smoothing any issues with Ben, he like everyone else, knew Ben wasnt ever going to wear a Sixers uniform again.

What Morey thought he could do was get max value for a player that had requested out and that wasnt the case. There was even a period of time before Simmons asked out publicly probably 1-2 weeks after he privately requested a trade. That was the time to make a move.

Morey has accomplished nothing in 15+ years as a GM. No Finals appearances, no championships.

Joe Dumars, who is widely thought of as a sub-par to terrible GM, accomplished more in 10 years than Morey has in 15 years and he didnt have any superstars like Harden/Chris Paul/Joel Embiid.

Short of a disgruntled star asking out in the next 8 weeks, Simmons will be traded for pennies on the dollar whether that's this season or in the offseason.

I understand that Sixers fans are upset but to think that a team would offer multiple 1st round picks AND a young superstar for a guy who is willing to sit out an entire season and give up 25-30M is absurd

Morey is an intelligent guy but he seems like a person who lacks the emotional intelligence to run the type of business the NBA is. If he really wanted to bring Simmons back, then he should have wrapped his arms around him after his disastrous playoff series and the comments from Doc and Embiid. You need to understand the temperament of your employees and having the media write hit pieces about how Simmons is coddled and hasn’t improved since his rookie season is not the way to smooth things over.

[Nuntius]

The Sixers lost to a young Hawks team last year. Anything can happen, but saying that they just need to get a better fit, while lowering the overall talent on the team, is misguided imo.

We can agree to disagree. The Sixers are one Simmons trade away from contention, imo.

Also, guys that can create their own shot (efficiently) are what people call stars and it is indeed what the Sixers need

Kinda but not quite. I talked about that Hawks series earlier and I mentioned how the Hawks got a big lift out of the shot-creation abilities of Gallinari, Bogdanovic and Huerter. None of the three is considered a star but they can definitely create their own shot. Same goes for Seth Curry on the Sixers. He is not a star but he can create his own shot when needed.

The Sixers do not quite need a star, imo. They do not need a top 25 player. What they need is a very good starter (around top 50-top 75) that fits what the team is trying to do and can play next to Embiid. Someone who can create their own shot, handle the ball under pressure and shoot from distance. Ideally, he'd also be a good defender but the Sixers do have Thybulle in the perimeter and Embiid at the rim so if he's really good at the other 3 tasks, they can afford to have someone who is just solid and not really good at it.

The players that were rumored for the Sixers over the summer (McCollum, Brogdon, Siakam, OG & FVV) all fit most of the above criteria and then some. The Sixers would be in a great spot if they took any of these offers but Morey got greedy.

No, i said that if Embiid had actually 5-6 prime/peak years left they Sixers could afford to take a step back and retool. Since he likely hasnt, the Sixers need to get this trade right or they will have to rebuild.

My apologies, I misread what you wrote. You didn't say that Embiid had 5-6 prime/peak years so the part of my post that referenced that is moot.

I do feel the need to point out something, though. I never said that the Sixers should "take a step back and retool". What I am saying is that the Sixers need to go for the throat. They need to go for the win now move right now. They need to complete the trade that will make them title contenders. They need a trade similar to the Rasheed Wallace trade back in '04. And, imo, they could have had that trade if Morey wasn't hellbent on being seen as a huge winner in every single trade. That's why I'm talking about pride and ego. A win-win trade can get the 76ers a title but, no, Morey wants to be seen as ripping the other team off. It's just not going to happen.