Kyrie Trade Discussion Continued

[clyde21]

If they werent expecting a higher return, they wouldnt even be talking to any teams.

Except for the fact that they are because, you know, Kyrie is kinda forcing their hand.

Kyrie requested a trade. I'm not aware of anything past that. That's not a forcing of the hand. Kyrie, short of sitting out until traded, can't really force anything.

A trade request that has become public is forcing the Cavs' hand.

Which is fine, just don't expect a bigger return than Butler (and you really shouldn't either way). If that's not good enough, Suns should walk away immediately.

[oikosnomos]

Except for the fact that they are because, you know, Kyrie is kinda forcing their hand.

Kyrie requested a trade. I'm not aware of anything past that. That's not a forcing of the hand. Kyrie, short of sitting out until traded, can't really force anything.

A trade request that has become public is forcing the Cavs' hand.

Which is fine, just don't expect a bigger return than Butler (and you really shouldn't either way). If that's not good enough, Suns should walk away immediately.

No it isn't. Public perception doesn't mean anything. I do expect a bigger return for a younger player, at a premium position with tons of upside, a more favorable contract, who will increase tv, ticket and merchandise revenues for the whatever franchise he goes to. Seems absurd to suggest the Cavs should take whatever pu pu platter the first team offers. That is a much more unreasonable stance than the Cavs asking high and waiting for best offer over the next 4-8 months.

[Stillwater]

Kyrie requested a trade. I'm not aware of anything past that. That's not a forcing of the hand. Kyrie, short of sitting out until traded, can't really force anything.

A trade request that has become public is forcing the Cavs' hand.

Which is fine, just don't expect a bigger return than Butler (and you really shouldn't either way). If that's not good enough, Suns should walk away immediately.

No it isn't. Public perception doesn't mean anything. I do expect a bigger return for a younger player, at a premium position with tons of upside, a more favorable contract, who will increase tv, ticket and merchandise revenues for the whatever franchise he goes to. Seems absurd to suggest the Cavs should take whatever pu pu platter the first team offers. That is a much more unreasonable stance than the Cavs asking high and waiting for best offer over the next 4-8 months.

right and notice you are debating this with a GSW fan who absolutely benefits from Cleveland getting worse not better.

[oikosnomos]

right and notice you are debating this with a GSW fan who absolutely benefits from Cleveland getting worse not better.

I hope that isn't playing a role in his logic. The deck is already stacked as it is.

I'm not discounting the possibility the Cavs mess this up and take some crappy deal. But to expect it is just cynical, and to argue it is the correct way to go just absurd.

[clyde21]

Kyrie requested a trade. I'm not aware of anything past that. That's not a forcing of the hand. Kyrie, short of sitting out until traded, can't really force anything.

A trade request that has become public is forcing the Cavs' hand.

Which is fine, just don't expect a bigger return than Butler (and you really shouldn't either way). If that's not good enough, Suns should walk away immediately.

No it isn't. Public perception doesn't mean anything. I do expect a bigger return for a younger player, at a premium position with tons of upside, a more favorable contract, who will increase tv, ticket and merchandise revenues for the whatever franchise he goes to. Seems absurd to suggest the Cavs should take whatever pu pu platter the first team offers. That is a much more unreasonable stance than the Cavs asking high and waiting for best offer over the next 4-8 months.

Public perception means everything. If I know a player wants out and it's public, that gives me more trade leverage...especially when there's another trade I can use as a framework.

Not sure what issue here is. If you think you can get more for Kyrie more power to you, but I wouldn't hold my breath. And note that the longer you hold on to him, the lower his trade value.

[collidingNeurons]

I'm really hoping the Suns just remain committed to this being their offer and letting Cleveland go find their best offer and if it's better than the Sun offer so be it. I am admittedly not a huge Kyrie fan for multiple reasons not the least being wanting out of what most players would consider an enviable situation, but as long as it's not the Suns caving into the Cavs demands i don't care how long Cleveland waits, where he ends up or what he i traded for.

[clyde21]

A trade request that has become public is forcing the Cavs' hand.

Which is fine, just don't expect a bigger return than Butler (and you really shouldn't either way). If that's not good enough, Suns should walk away immediately.

No it isn't. Public perception doesn't mean anything. I do expect a bigger return for a younger player, at a premium position with tons of upside, a more favorable contract, who will increase tv, ticket and merchandise revenues for the whatever franchise he goes to. Seems absurd to suggest the Cavs should take whatever pu pu platter the first team offers. That is a much more unreasonable stance than the Cavs asking high and waiting for best offer over the next 4-8 months.

right and notice you are debating this with a GSW fan who absolutely benefits from Cleveland getting worse not better.

I'm actually on record here saying that the Cavs can actually get better if they pull the trigger on the right trade. If the Cavs get a return of Bledsoe, Chandler and Warren, for instance, it's a trade they should run with and I think they get better as a whole.

So maybe you should read the thread before you try to marginalize my opinion.

[oikosnomos]

A trade request that has become public is forcing the Cavs' hand.

Which is fine, just don't expect a bigger return than Butler (and you really shouldn't either way). If that's not good enough, Suns should walk away immediately.

No it isn't. Public perception doesn't mean anything. I do expect a bigger return for a younger player, at a premium position with tons of upside, a more favorable contract, who will increase tv, ticket and merchandise revenues for the whatever franchise he goes to. Seems absurd to suggest the Cavs should take whatever pu pu platter the first team offers. That is a much more unreasonable stance than the Cavs asking high and waiting for best offer over the next 4-8 months.

Public perception means everything. If I know a player wants out and it's public, that gives me more trade leverage...especially when there's another trade I can use as a framework.

Not sure what issue here is. If you think you can get more for Kyrie more power to you, but I wouldn't hold my breath. And note that the longer you hold on to him, the lower his trade value.

Public perception means nothing in a negotiation with another front office for a high-value player in Kyrie Irving. It's got be the least tangible and fickle factor in all this. Only thing that it becoming public knowledge does is incentives teams to call and put together packages and try to acquire him. His stats, productivity, contract, star power etc all bring more value to him than a leaked trade request. Butler and George trades were viewed as bad deals? How exactly does that turn into leverage for other teams? The "issue" I have with that view is it doesn't make much sense. This seems like a prime situation where a team can actually get value back from a player. A quiet leak of a trade request, with not real player personnel problems, from a player who is at a peak value right now.

[oikosnomos]

I'm really hoping the Suns just remain committed to this being their offer and letting Cleveland go find their best offer and if it's better than the Sun offer so be it. I am admittedly not a huge Kyrie fan for multiple reasons not the least being wanting out of what most players would consider an enviable situation, but as long as it's not the Suns caving into the Cavs demands i don't care how long Cleveland waits, where he ends up or what he i traded for.

If the Suns think Jackson will elevate them higher than Kyrie ever could, then should stand pat. It's a gamble, but Kyrie's immediate impact on Suns as a franchise is undeniable.

[clyde21]

No it isn't. Public perception doesn't mean anything. I do expect a bigger return for a younger player, at a premium position with tons of upside, a more favorable contract, who will increase tv, ticket and merchandise revenues for the whatever franchise he goes to. Seems absurd to suggest the Cavs should take whatever pu pu platter the first team offers. That is a much more unreasonable stance than the Cavs asking high and waiting for best offer over the next 4-8 months.

Public perception means everything. If I know a player wants out and it's public, that gives me more trade leverage...especially when there's another trade I can use as a framework.

Not sure what issue here is. If you think you can get more for Kyrie more power to you, but I wouldn't hold my breath. And note that the longer you hold on to him, the lower his trade value.

Public perception means nothing in a negotiation with another front office for a high-value player in Kyrie Irving. It's got be the least tangible and fickle factor in all this. Only thing that it becoming public knowledge does is incentives teams to call and put together packages and try to acquire him. His stats, productivity, contract, star power etc all bring more value to him than a leaked trade request. Butler and George trades were viewed as bad deals? How exactly does that turn into leverage for other teams? The "issue" I have with that view is it doesn't make much sense. This seems like a prime situation where a team can actually get value back from a player. A quiet leak of a trade request, with not real player personnel problems, from a player who is at a peak value right now.

It's not a quiet leak. The two sides (Cavs and Kyrie) have been throwing jabs at each other for weeks. Kyrie Irving himself put a list of teams he wants to be traded for. These will be tangible factors in the negotiating process and you can't just suspend that reality.

Bottom line: Jimmy Butler is not only a better overall player, but is a guy who didn't have a list and never made anything public...and he was traded for LaVine, Dunn and a swap. Yet somehow a worse player who has made the teams he wants to be traded to public is supposed to garner a larger return...why? Because it's the Cavs?

[collidingNeurons]

I'm really hoping the Suns just remain committed to this being their offer and letting Cleveland go find their best offer and if it's better than the Sun offer so be it. I am admittedly not a huge Kyrie fan for multiple reasons not the least being wanting out of what most players would consider an enviable situation, but as long as it's not the Suns caving into the Cavs demands i don't care how long Cleveland waits, where he ends up or what he i traded for.

If the Suns think Jackson will elevate them higher than Kyrie ever could, then should stand pat. It's a gamble, but Kyrie's immediate impact on Suns as a franchise is undeniable.

it's certainly not a given that Kyrie positively affects the Suns at all. that's all hypothetical with too many unknown factor in play. We have no idea what would be the final trade, what sort of attitude would accompany him if it would alienate other player already their wanting to be the face of the franchise etc, not to mention some of us aren't even sure he impacts them more than bledsoe does , he is a better offensive player than Bledsoe but he definitely isnt the better defensive player and the rest can certainly be debated and we don't know if he gets along with the other players on the team and Bledsoe seem to based on the fact most of them showed up last year to practice with him when he held his unofficial voluntary pre season practices

this in some ways reminds me of when the Suns traded Kidd for Marbury... not saying either player is those players, but a lot of the pro trade crowd cited age, potential and scoring ability and ignored the other intangible stuff

[oikosnomos]

It's not a quiet leak. The two sides (Cavs and Kyrie) have been throwing jabs at each other for weeks. Kyrie Irving himself put a list of teams he wants to be traded for. If you don't think these matters then you're just being delusional.

Bottom line: Jimmy Butler is not only a better overall player, but is a guy who didn't have a list and never made anything public...and he was traded for LaVine, Dunn and a swap. Yet somehow a worse player who has made the teams he wants to be traded to public is supposed to garner a larger return. Why? Because it's the Cavs?

I've not seen or heard one thing Kyrie and Cavs have publicly said about the situation that could be perceived as "jabs" what are you referring to that I am being delusional about? You believe there is a physical list Kyrie made and handed to the Cavs? Do you believe Lebron wants to "beat Kyrie's ass"?

Kyrie hasn't made anything more public than Butler. I'm not going to debate who is a better player, but it's negligible especially considering the age difference.

[clyde21]

If they werent expecting a higher return, they wouldnt even be talking to any teams.

Except for the fact that they are because, you know, Kyrie is kinda forcing their hand.

Kyrie requested a trade. I'm not aware of anything past that. That's not a forcing of the hand. Kyrie, short of sitting out until traded, can't really force anything.

He requested a trade, and the list of teams he wants to be traded to was made public, and since then he and the Cavs side have taken multiple jabs at each other. Subtle or not. Everyone knows what's going on within that organization and it's quite delusional to think that it was have affect on his draft stock...especially since, you know, a better player just got traded for even less.

[oikosnomos]

I'm really hoping the Suns just remain committed to this being their offer and letting Cleveland go find their best offer and if it's better than the Sun offer so be it. I am admittedly not a huge Kyrie fan for multiple reasons not the least being wanting out of what most players would consider an enviable situation, but as long as it's not the Suns caving into the Cavs demands i don't care how long Cleveland waits, where he ends up or what he i traded for.

If the Suns think Jackson will elevate them higher than Kyrie ever could, then should stand pat. It's a gamble, but Kyrie's immediate impact on Suns as a franchise is undeniable.

it's certainly not a given that Kyrie positively affects the Suns at all. that's all hypothetical with too many unknown factor in play. We have no idea what would be the final trade, what sort of attitude would accompany him if it would alienate other player already their wanting to be the face of the franchise etc, not to mention some of us aren't even sure he impacts them more than bledsoe does , he is a better offensive player than Bledsoe but he definitely isnt the better defensive player and the rest can certainly be debated and we don't know if he gets along with the other players on the team and Bledsoe seem to based on the fact most of them showed up last year to practice with him when he held his unofficial voluntary pre season practices

this in some ways reminds me of when the Suns traded Kidd for Marbury... not saying either player is those players, but a lot of the pro trade crowd cited age, potential and scoring ability and ignored the other intangible stuff

Kyrie is already a bigger star than Bledsoe will ever be. He'll sell games and merchandise. Do you think Josh Jackson will be making Uncle Drew like commercials, have the same amount of highlight materials or be the fifth highest selling jerse?

[Stillwater]

No it isn't. Public perception doesn't mean anything. I do expect a bigger return for a younger player, at a premium position with tons of upside, a more favorable contract, who will increase tv, ticket and merchandise revenues for the whatever franchise he goes to. Seems absurd to suggest the Cavs should take whatever pu pu platter the first team offers. That is a much more unreasonable stance than the Cavs asking high and waiting for best offer over the next 4-8 months.

right and notice you are debating this with a GSW fan who absolutely benefits from Cleveland getting worse not better.

I'm actually on record here saying that the Cavs can actually get better if they pull the trigger on the right trade. If the Cavs get a return of Bledsoe, Chandler and Warren, for instance, it's a trade they should run with and I think they get better as a whole.

So maybe you should read the thread before you try to marginalize my opinion.

Maybe you should respond to my response to you on the bottom of page 75,which you obviously have no reasonable argument to counter with.

[Kerrsed]

If they werent expecting a higher return, they wouldnt even be talking to any teams.

Except for the fact that they are because, you know, Kyrie is kinda forcing their hand.

Kyrie requested a trade. I'm not aware of anything past that. That's not a forcing of the hand. Kyrie, short of sitting out until traded, can't really force anything.

Oh you arnt aware of the Lebron talk or Curry's wedding video or the fact that Irving isnt talking to anyone in the Cav's organization? Interesting.

[oikosnomos]

Except for the fact that they are because, you know, Kyrie is kinda forcing their hand.

Kyrie requested a trade. I'm not aware of anything past that. That's not a forcing of the hand. Kyrie, short of sitting out until traded, can't really force anything.

He requested a trade, and the list of teams he wants to be traded to was made public, and since then he and the Cavs side have taken multiple jabs at each other. Subtle or not. Everyone knows what's going on within that organization and it's quite delusional to think that it was have affect on his draft stock...especially since, you know, a better player just got traded for even less.

Again, show me the jabs. You can't. You think Butler is a better player. Great, doesn't matter at that you think that in terms of value of player. Public perception is fickle and easily changed. Kyrie's resume, contract, age and ability to bring eyeballs and dollars to a franchise are really what matters in these negotiations.

"Everyone knows what's going on within that organization" - this is the real root of you argument and it's based on unsubstatiated rumors. Could they all be true? Sure. Could they all be false? Sure, but until it's actually proven, they are just rumors. But you, in your mind, know what is true and what isn't.

[oikosnomos]

Except for the fact that they are because, you know, Kyrie is kinda forcing their hand.

Kyrie requested a trade. I'm not aware of anything past that. That's not a forcing of the hand. Kyrie, short of sitting out until traded, can't really force anything.

Oh you arnt aware of the Lebron talk or Curry's wedding video or the fact that Irving isnt talking to anyone in the Cav's organization? Interesting.

A wedding video and letting your agent negotiate. This basically proves my point about the total worthlessness of public perception regarding trade negotiations. You think the Suns are playing that video and saying "Where is Kyrie?" as a part of the talks?

[bwgood77]

I'm pretty sure no one on either side is going to be convinced they are suddenly good with what the other side wants. The focus for Cleveland should be to move on from Suns, and the focus from Suns should definitely be to move on from this. The distraction exists for Cleveland, but now it also exists for Phoenix, and it would be best if they just moved on and focused on the team they have and get out from under this distraction.

Cleveland should go for Dragic, Winslow and Bam or something.

[oikosnomos]

Except for the fact that they are because, you know, Kyrie is kinda forcing their hand.

Kyrie requested a trade. I'm not aware of anything past that. That's not a forcing of the hand. Kyrie, short of sitting out until traded, can't really force anything.

Oh you arnt aware of the Lebron talk or Curry's wedding video or the fact that Irving isnt talking to anyone in the Cav's organization? Interesting.

What is the "Lebron talk" btw?