2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 6) - with ROY poll

[aminiaturebuddha]

This doesn't really take a position on the ROTY debate, but a great article on Scottie Barnes here. Largely focusses on his outsized personality, but some great insights into his playing mentality also.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/scottie-barnes-is-no-joke-the-raptors-remarkable-rookie-is-everything-everywhere-all-at-once/

[ForeverTFC]

Just give the award to all 3 at this point

We all know Mobley is going to get it. Makes the Raps/Pistons pissing contest even worse.

[Tacoma]

this one any better for your criteria? Oh, and Achiuwa often fumbles the ball...small hands. I thing Scottie expected Ach to block the defender a bit and was just going to dunk it himself.

Watch on YouTube

that's literally the same one i quoted...

I disagree that this was a useless no look from Barnes.

Look at where Siakam is as they pass mid-court - he is clearly behind Lavert. Barnes looking away from Siakam and towards Brooks in the middle of the floor draws Lavert's attention and before you know it Siakam is free for the dunk.

Of course WHEN Barnes passes it, Siakam is free. But Barnes looking at Brooks instead of Siakam coming past half court is what allowed him to be as open as he was.

LOL, in CBS article about Barnes, his teammate Fred VanVleet specifically mentions Barnes' no look...

VanVleet goes from ribbing Barnes' affinity for no-look passes to marveling at the mileage he gets out of them.

"That's just a little showboating, it ain't that deep," VanVleet says. "I think he's trying to make the home-run plays, right? He thinks he's Magic Johnson out there.

"But nah, it works. Every time, I'm like, 'How does this keep working?' I'm running up the floor with him, so I see it. And he's usually looking at me to throw it. So I'm just like, 'All right, man.' But it's working. He's been great with the look-offs and kind of knowing where he wants to go with it, but setting it up. That takes a different level of understanding."

The no-look is "something I just always do," Barnes says. "I do it for no reason sometimes." But when he removed his Dolce & Gabbana face mask on his way to shake the commissioner's hand, a photo of Magic Johnson passing the ball was beside his ear-to-ear grin on the NBA Draft telecast, which noted that he "REGULARLY WATCHES MAGIC JOHNSON HIGHLIGHTS AND EMULATES HIS GAME."

"You definitely can see it," VanVleet says. "It's funny at times. Sometimes, it's not funny."

Thanks to douggood from the Toronto Board for referencing the article. Full article HERE.

[shi-woo]

I feel the same way about the Raptors and Scottie Barnes as a did with the Celtics when they scammed themselves into Tatum. Two teams doing things the right way, drafting the right player, and developing them properly.

I know there will be Cade and Mobley fans, and rightfully so, but man, when i'm watching Scottie play he just gives me that early Paul George vibe where you know it's a matter of when, not if, he jumps into the top 15 top 10 talk.

I think he was also a large part of the reason why the Raptors were as good as they were this year. He was the athletic wing that gave you 15/8/4 between Siakam, Fred, and Trent Jr. As a rookie he made everyone on his team better. How can I not give the nod to him?

[LoveMyRaps]

Sports Illustrated rankings have Scottie #1 in their Rookie Ladder and rightfully so.

https://www.si.com/nba/2022/04/08/nba-rookie-rankings-scottie-barnes-evan-mobley-cade-cunningham-awards

1. Scottie Barnes

Barnes has trailed Mobley by most estimations for a substantial chunk of 2021–22, though he kept the race close enough to snag Rookie of the Year here in the final month. Barnes is averaging 18 points and 8.4 rebounds across his last 20 games. He sports a plus-4.1 net rating in March. He is one of four rookies since 2000 to average 15 points, seven rebounds and three assists per game, a crew that includes previous Rookies of the Year Luka Doncic, Ben Simmons and Blake Griffin. And while Mobley’s defensive impact is likely greater than Barnes’s, the advanced statistics paint a relatively clear picture overall. Barnes leads Mobley in true shooting percentage, PER, assist percentage and turnover rate. He’s generated more win shares and has a healthy edge in FiveThirtyEight’s RAPTOR metric.


I’d likely be fine ignoring the advanced numbers and giving Mobley the award if Barnes didn’t finish with a flourish. But give credit to Toronto’s burgeoning star. His strong close to the season could very well result in a surprise honor

[whitehops]

mike schmitz sat down with cade to break down some of his film for anyone interested.

Watch on YouTube

[CptCrunch]

Cade isn't really a floor raiser. He is a nice 2guard prospect, but his creation skill doesn't significantly impact his team above a replacement PG level. His scoring is waaay more advanced than I have given him credit for, but his passing/creation/vision at an level that I was not impressed with pre-draft. Not all passes are created equal, his seem to be on the lower end of the quality spectrum. This is on top of his 1.5 TOV/AST ratio which ranks 2nd to last among guards with over 200 assists this season (only ahead of Suggs). Even Westbrook is at 1.8 TOV/AST. Quality play makers are at 2-3 for the most part.

So far after 80-ish games, I don't see any signs that he is a future superstar level player. A low tier all-star scoring guard is his realistic ceiling in my opinion.

I have Mobley/Barnes > Green/Franz all solidly ahead of him at this point.

[tmorgan]

I’m really going to enjoy comments like that one in a couple of years, when Cade isn’t playing 3 on 5 most nights.

That said, Cade definitely sucked tonight.

[HumbleRen]

Jalen Green didn't have a great night but his flashes are so much fun to watch. Him and Kuminga just have a different kind of bounce to them, it's unreal.

[Bruin]

Scottie didn’t have the best of games tonight but showed up when it mattered.

Was 1/6 with 4 points heading into the 4th down by 10. Scored 12 in the 4th on 6/7 and helped us win the game with timely baskets

[Tripod]

Josh Christopher was great tonight. Houston had a great draft last year and have a great group to build upon.

Signed, a Raps fan.

[MrBigShot]

Just give the award to all 3 at this point

We all know Mobley is going to get it. Makes the Raps/Pistons pissing contest even worse.

I feel like if the voters haven't already made their mind up a month ago then Barnes is the clear choice with his play post all star break.

[LoveMyRaps]

Scottie had the best night out of the big 3. This race is over IMO. It came right down to the wire as expected.

My final ROTY rankings:

1) Scottie Barnes
2) Cade Cunningham
3) Evan Mobley
-------------------------
4) Franz Wagner
5a) Jalen Green
5b) Josh Giddey
-------------------------
6) Herbert Jones
7) Ayo Donsunmu
8) Bones Hyland
-------------------------
9) Jonathan Kuminga
10a) Davion Mitchell
10b) Chris Duarte


What a class.

[Homelander87]

Cade isn't really a floor raiser. He is a nice 2guard prospect, but his creation skill doesn't significantly impact his team above a replacement PG level. His scoring is waaay more advanced than I have given him credit for, but his passing/creation/vision at an level that I was not impressed with pre-draft. Not all passes are created equal, his seem to be on the lower end of the quality spectrum. This is on top of his 1.5 TOV/AST ratio which ranks 2nd to last among guards with over 200 assists this season (only ahead of Suggs). Even Westbrook is at 1.8 TOV/AST. Quality play makers are at 2-3 for the most part.

So far after 80-ish games, I don't see any signs that he is a future superstar level player. A low tier all-star scoring guard is his realistic ceiling in my opinion.

I have Mobley/Barnes > Green/Franz all solidly ahead of him at this point.

I'm a Pistons fan and I agree. Cade just doesn't have the IT factor. He's a good player and would be an amazing second option on a title team but he can't be your best player. He just doesn't have the explosiveness to consistently create against elite teams if they really try and defend him. Dave Bing is not wrong

[CptCrunch]

I guess I'm going to make my final post of the year on most team's 80/81st game.

Rookie of the Year, it wouldn't be a robbery to give it to any of these 3.

1a. Mobley
1b. Barnes
1c. Cade

Going forward, who I rather have building a winning team. Of course, I can't predict injuries and do not know about the work ethics of these rookies. So these outcomes are based on my assessment of their current skillset combined with average development case going forward.

Tier 1 (True top 10 in league franchise player, DPOY)
1. Mobley

Tier 2 (True all-stars, low tier franchise players for a bad team)
2. Barnes
3. Green

Tier 3 (Excellent role players, third options, borderline all-star)
4. Sengun
5. Wagner
6. Cade

Tier 4 (High end starters)
7. Giddey
8. Christopher
9. Kuminga
10. Suggs

Tier 5 (Average starters to 6-7th man role players)
Davion Mitchell/Herb Jones/Ayo/Ziaire/Duarte

[Bruin]

Read on Twitter

?s=21&t=q5zdSO0s41rwVSnbDNTQYQ

[whitehops]

Cade isn't really a floor raiser. He is a nice 2guard prospect, but his creation skill doesn't significantly impact his team above a replacement PG level. His scoring is waaay more advanced than I have given him credit for, but his passing/creation/vision at an level that I was not impressed with pre-draft. Not all passes are created equal, his seem to be on the lower end of the quality spectrum. This is on top of his 1.5 TOV/AST ratio which ranks 2nd to last among guards with over 200 assists this season (only ahead of Suggs). Even Westbrook is at 1.8 TOV/AST. Quality play makers are at 2-3 for the most part.

So far after 80-ish games, I don't see any signs that he is a future superstar level player. A low tier all-star scoring guard is his realistic ceiling in my opinion.

I have Mobley/Barnes > Green/Franz all solidly ahead of him at this point.

i'm not trying to change your mind, but AST/TO ratio alone is a poor way to measure play making ability. secondly, here are the AST/TO ratios of players most would consider good creators from their rookie season:

cade - 1.53

doncic - 1.74
lebron - 1.70
jokic - 1.82
harden - 1.29

there are some exceptions (chris paul, trae young, ja morant) but really the vast majority of rookies that have high usage rates have AST/TO ratios below 2. and again, it's not a very predictive stat.

[CptCrunch]

Cade isn't really a floor raiser. He is a nice 2guard prospect, but his creation skill doesn't significantly impact his team above a replacement PG level. His scoring is waaay more advanced than I have given him credit for, but his passing/creation/vision at an level that I was not impressed with pre-draft. Not all passes are created equal, his seem to be on the lower end of the quality spectrum. This is on top of his 1.5 TOV/AST ratio which ranks 2nd to last among guards with over 200 assists this season (only ahead of Suggs). Even Westbrook is at 1.8 TOV/AST. Quality play makers are at 2-3 for the most part.

So far after 80-ish games, I don't see any signs that he is a future superstar level player. A low tier all-star scoring guard is his realistic ceiling in my opinion.

I have Mobley/Barnes > Green/Franz all solidly ahead of him at this point.

i'm not trying to change your mind, but AST/TO ratio alone is a poor way to measure play making ability. secondly, here are the AST/TO ratios of players most would consider good creators from their rookie season:

cade - 1.53

doncic - 1.74
lebron - 1.70
jokic - 1.82
harden - 1.29

there are some exceptions (chris paul, trae young, ja morant) but really the vast majority of rookies that have high usage rates have AST/TO ratios below 2.

Pretty disingenuous to look at rookie Jokic and Harden stats. Bron and Luka elevates their teams from game one in the league. Regardless, you can defend Cade until the end of the day, and I won't think he is good. I was wrong about Cade being unathletic enough to score in the league, but I was dead on about him not being a point guard.

[MrBigShot]

Cade isn't really a floor raiser. He is a nice 2guard prospect, but his creation skill doesn't significantly impact his team above a replacement PG level. His scoring is waaay more advanced than I have given him credit for, but his passing/creation/vision at an level that I was not impressed with pre-draft. Not all passes are created equal, his seem to be on the lower end of the quality spectrum. This is on top of his 1.5 TOV/AST ratio which ranks 2nd to last among guards with over 200 assists this season (only ahead of Suggs). Even Westbrook is at 1.8 TOV/AST. Quality play makers are at 2-3 for the most part.

So far after 80-ish games, I don't see any signs that he is a future superstar level player. A low tier all-star scoring guard is his realistic ceiling in my opinion.

I have Mobley/Barnes > Green/Franz all solidly ahead of him at this point.

I'm a Pistons fan and I agree. Cade just doesn't have the IT factor. He's a good player and would be an amazing second option on a title team but he can't be your best player. He just doesn't have the explosiveness to consistently create against elite teams if they really try and defend him. Dave Bing is not wrong

I think you, dave being, and anyone else with the same sort of take are delusional for trying to put a hard cap on a guy with as much talent as Cade in his 1st season.

23/7/6 on 48/32/78 in March and ya'll think his ceiling is 2nd option? That IS 2nd option and all star level already and people really think he's going to peak at what he's shown recently? Explosiveness isn't remotely an issue for Cade. He's 6'6 with a long wingspan and gets to wherever he wants on the court already.

[Bruin]

I think placing a ceiling on any of these top rookies is kinda foolish. They all (Scottie, Mobley, Cade, Green) have superstar potential with mvp caliber ceilings. Whether they reach that ceiling is another discussion but I wouldn’t really put a cap on their potential at this stage