RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 2)

[web123888]

Jordan over LeBron for sure. LeBron’s supposed case has been built up over the years due to longevity alone. Jordan was always the vastly superior player at his best.

[Gregoire]

Messi and Ronaldo are LeBron and Steph, Jordan and LeBron are Maradona and Messi.

Pele was no slouch either.

Hotestly, Pele in on par with Messi for me 1a and 1 b, then Maradona, then Cruyf and Cristiano

[Gregoire]

I'd say Messi over the very overrated Ronaldo myself. Messi has won the World Cup, the most converted trophy in all of world sports. Cry baby Ronnie hasn't.

Also I suspect many LeBron Stans are also Ronaldo lovers and I think this thread will be locked soon when it descends onto an utter **** lol

I also pick MJ over LeBron, but the gap is closer

LeBron and Cristiano fans are similar, for sure: its people who think, that longevity and fitness could match peak and talent.

[-Luke-]

Cruyff was better than both Messi and CR.

[Mavrelous]

Messi and Ronaldo are LeBron and Steph, Jordan and LeBron are Maradona and Messi.

Pele was no slouch either.

I'd say Pele is KAJ? At least era wise...

[ball_takes23]

Messi > Jordan > Brazil Ronaldo >>> C. Ronaldo > Lebron

[bledredwine]

Jordan Lebron.

Did Messi form super teams and still come up short?

The stat boom, and LBJ sticking around for way too long as a current player is the only reason this even exists. Luckily, it’ll vanish just as quickly as the kobe debate did. Jordan dominates that discussion to the point that lebron fans are helpless.

Messi and Ronaldo played in the same era at actual similar levels. Most people just don’t understand what it takes to be GOAT and throw that word around like it’s nothing. In tennis, you have GOAT after GOAT after GOAT and it makes you roll your eyes because you easily sense the BS.

Jordan literally finished first in (brace yourself) PER, offensive win shares, win shares, win shares per 48, offensive box plus minus, box plus minus, and VORP 3 years in a row in his prime, 1st team defense those 3 years with the scoring title each year, while getting 3-peating with 3 FMVP's and 2 MVP's. We likely won't see that in our lifetime again. He cemented himself as GOAT by extraordinary GOAT feats and records. He was simply on another level.

No, it's not even close. If Lebron is indeed second, it's a distant second (Kareem is 2nd, all day)

[Godymas]

i go back and forth on the LeBron vs. Jordan debate, because what LeBron did is ofc insane, and his longevity is amazing too, however realistically he hasn't been an impactful winning player for a while now and the idea of a LeBron James team contender hasn't been true since 2021. He just stuck around and played. The longevity argument is great, but at the same time Jordan came back after 3 years of not doing anything, and he was still a very good NBA player. In LeBron's case, he stuck it out, and I don't doubt for a moment that Jordan could not have kept playing like LeBron, but for Jordan his passion was unrivaled and I mean the passion to win and compete is what made him the GOAT. In LeBron's case, he lacked the same pinnacle perfectionism of a Jordan. LeBron was the best version of what an NBA career should be. Jordan is what people will think of when they say "he was the greatest of all time", and the reason why was because of his dominance. So the argument on Jordan vs. LeBron is dominance vs. longevity and when it comes to "GREATEST" dominance tied with enough longevity will beat out pure longevity. LeBron was dominant too, but he wasn't as dominant as Jordan, and Jordan did 6 finals in a row, and I don't doubt for a minute, Jordan could have done 8 in a row comparable to what LeBron did in the 2010s, but his passion outside the game of basketball made him bigger than the game of basketball. LeBron is nothing but the game of basketball.

So going back to the OP comparison, Messi vs. Ronaldo, I don't personally watch much of their sport, but from looking online, the comparison seems much less pronounced. The global game of football is one that is spread into so many different leagues and accomplishments that I don't know how to quantify either of their accomplishments. It seems to consensus is Messi is the better overall player even if Ronaldo scored better? The measure of LeBron vs. Jordan is a more extreme measure of longevity vs. domination and I don't know who was the more dominant player during their peak, but I'd assume Ronaldo? However the sport is vastly different, both players are still playing, it's hard to measure true value in a game like soccer which seems much more team dependent than basketball where 1 guy can carry the team.

[Gregoire]

Todays Lebron is very similar to Cristiano Ronaldo: both know deep in mind than their time is gone, they are not relevant and their archrival are better and they will not catch them (Messi and MJ respectively), but their ego needs to score useless records without winning to prove point and take fake legacy. But at this stage public see it and their legary only became only less and worse from their "longevity"

[Gregoire]

i go back and forth on the LeBron vs. Jordan debate, because what LeBron did is ofc insane, and his longevity is amazing too, however realistically he hasn't been an impactful winning player for a while now and the idea of a LeBron James team contender hasn't been true since 2021. He just stuck around and played. The longevity argument is great, but at the same time Jordan came back after 3 years of not doing anything, and he was still a very good NBA player. In LeBron's case, he stuck it out, and I don't doubt for a moment that Jordan could not have kept playing like LeBron, but for Jordan his passion was unrivaled and I mean the passion to win and compete is what made him the GOAT. In LeBron's case, he lacked the same pinnacle perfectionism of a Jordan. LeBron was the best version of what an NBA career should be. Jordan is what people will think of when they say "he was the greatest of all time", and the reason why was because of his dominance. So the argument on Jordan vs. LeBron is dominance vs. longevity and when it comes to "GREATEST" dominance tied with enough longevity will beat out pure longevity. LeBron was dominant too, but he wasn't as dominant as Jordan, and Jordan did 6 finals in a row, and I don't doubt for a minute, Jordan could have done 8 in a row comparable to what LeBron did in the 2010s, but his passion outside the game of basketball made him bigger than the game of basketball. LeBron is nothing but the game of basketball.

So going back to the OP comparison, Messi vs. Ronaldo, I don't personally watch much of their sport, but from looking online, the comparison seems much less pronounced. The global game of football is one that is spread into so many different leagues and accomplishments that I don't know how to quantify either of their accomplishments. It seems to consensus is Messi is the better overall player even if Ronaldo scored better? The measure of LeBron vs. Jordan is a more extreme measure of longevity vs. domination and I don't know who was the more dominant player during their peak, but I'd assume Ronaldo? However the sport is vastly different, both players are still playing, it's hard to measure true value in a game like soccer which seems much more team dependent than basketball where 1 guy can carry the team.

Messi was much more dominant at his peak than Cristiano. Like Jordan over LeBron at their peaks.

[michaelm]

Ah yes, we should all shut our brains off and be blind homers. That makes for intelligent discussion.

So blind homerism is fine as long as LeBron is its object ?.

Of course not being able to carry a team at age 40 doesn’t dismiss LeBron’s case for being GOAT, but it does reinforce the argument that his statistics past the age of 35 are not particularly meaningful given they have not been in the service of any real contention by the Lakers.

Advantage Kareem.

Is this your new coping mechanism? Any statistics that don't result in a championship mean nothing I suppose that's one way of coping with LeBron shattering most records.

You have a habit of getting so worked up regarding LeBron that you say/imply things that I know you don't believe. You're better than this michaelm.

I believe I said contention.

[Jamaaliver]

Hard Truth is that LeBron benefitted from a weakened Eastern Conference for years.

He's a great player, but by moving his biggest competitors onto his own teams, he had a much easier path to the Finals every year.

Celtics and Heat have had similar easy paths the past few years.

[KGtabake]

Ronaldo hasn't won the greatest trophy in world sports.
Nothing is comparable with the World Cup.
5 billion people watched the Final in 2022.
5 BILLION.
Messi has won everything.
It's not a debate.
For basketball we've said the same things millions of times, everyone can have his/her opinion.
But for football, there's no debate.

[TT8198]

Messi and Ronaldo are LeBron and Steph, Jordan and LeBron are Maradona and Messi.

Spot on. Agree with wholeheartedly

Sent from my SM-S916U using RealGM mobile app

[vagelis]

I don't think there is a clear goat in football.
Everyone has his opinion about it.

Messi and Cristiano were competitors in their era but there were big players before them too.

As about basketball, Jordan is by far the first option even if he retired 30 years ago.

[Chokic]

Lebron is better than Jordan by a little.

Messi is better than C. Ronaldo by a lot.

/thread

Bad strawman. LeBron isn't better than jordan at all much less little bit.

[Iwasawitness]

i go back and forth on the LeBron vs. Jordan debate, because what LeBron did is ofc insane, and his longevity is amazing too, however realistically he hasn't been an impactful winning player for a while now and the idea of a LeBron James team contender hasn't been true since 2021. He just stuck around and played. The longevity argument is great, but at the same time Jordan came back after 3 years of not doing anything, and he was still a very good NBA player. In LeBron's case, he stuck it out, and I don't doubt for a moment that Jordan could not have kept playing like LeBron, but for Jordan his passion was unrivaled and I mean the passion to win and compete is what made him the GOAT. In LeBron's case, he lacked the same pinnacle perfectionism of a Jordan. LeBron was the best version of what an NBA career should be. Jordan is what people will think of when they say "he was the greatest of all time", and the reason why was because of his dominance. So the argument on Jordan vs. LeBron is dominance vs. longevity and when it comes to "GREATEST" dominance tied with enough longevity will beat out pure longevity. LeBron was dominant too, but he wasn't as dominant as Jordan, and Jordan did 6 finals in a row, and I don't doubt for a minute, Jordan could have done 8 in a row comparable to what LeBron did in the 2010s, but his passion outside the game of basketball made him bigger than the game of basketball. LeBron is nothing but the game of basketball.

So going back to the OP comparison, Messi vs. Ronaldo, I don't personally watch much of their sport, but from looking online, the comparison seems much less pronounced. The global game of football is one that is spread into so many different leagues and accomplishments that I don't know how to quantify either of their accomplishments. It seems to consensus is Messi is the better overall player even if Ronaldo scored better? The measure of LeBron vs. Jordan is a more extreme measure of longevity vs. domination and I don't know who was the more dominant player during their peak, but I'd assume Ronaldo? However the sport is vastly different, both players are still playing, it's hard to measure true value in a game like soccer which seems much more team dependent than basketball where 1 guy can carry the team.

Messi was much more dominant at his peak than Cristiano. Like Jordan over LeBron at their peaks.

I don’t really see an argument for Jordan being “much more dominant” peak wise than LeBron.

[kaansunman]

It'll be more accurate if the title was Magic-Bird / Messi-Ronaldo.
Messi and Ronaldo were competing against each other. Rivalry got heated after Ronaldo had gone to Real Madrid. They were facing each other at least twice in the one of the biggest football rivaliries "el classico" every year. They were competing for the same league title, same cup and Champion's League.
I don't get into who is GOAT in football but I am always in favor of Messi over Ronaldo and I am very grateful that we were able watch this rivalary in my high-school/college years until mid thirties with a great ending with a World Cup title for Messi in 2022.

[UglyBugBall]

i go back and forth on the LeBron vs. Jordan debate, because what LeBron did is ofc insane, and his longevity is amazing too, however realistically he hasn't been an impactful winning player for a while now and the idea of a LeBron James team contender hasn't been true since 2021. He just stuck around and played. The longevity argument is great, but at the same time Jordan came back after 3 years of not doing anything, and he was still a very good NBA player. In LeBron's case, he stuck it out, and I don't doubt for a moment that Jordan could not have kept playing like LeBron, but for Jordan his passion was unrivaled and I mean the passion to win and compete is what made him the GOAT. In LeBron's case, he lacked the same pinnacle perfectionism of a Jordan. LeBron was the best version of what an NBA career should be. Jordan is what people will think of when they say "he was the greatest of all time", and the reason why was because of his dominance. So the argument on Jordan vs. LeBron is dominance vs. longevity and when it comes to "GREATEST" dominance tied with enough longevity will beat out pure longevity. LeBron was dominant too, but he wasn't as dominant as Jordan, and Jordan did 6 finals in a row, and I don't doubt for a minute, Jordan could have done 8 in a row comparable to what LeBron did in the 2010s, but his passion outside the game of basketball made him bigger than the game of basketball. LeBron is nothing but the game of basketball.

So going back to the OP comparison, Messi vs. Ronaldo, I don't personally watch much of their sport, but from looking online, the comparison seems much less pronounced. The global game of football is one that is spread into so many different leagues and accomplishments that I don't know how to quantify either of their accomplishments. It seems to consensus is Messi is the better overall player even if Ronaldo scored better? The measure of LeBron vs. Jordan is a more extreme measure of longevity vs. domination and I don't know who was the more dominant player during their peak, but I'd assume Ronaldo? However the sport is vastly different, both players are still playing, it's hard to measure true value in a game like soccer which seems much more team dependent than basketball where 1 guy can carry the team.

Messi was much more dominant at his peak than Cristiano. Like Jordan over LeBron at their peaks.

Not at all. Cristiano Ronaldo had one of the most dominant stretches in football history:

- Champions League three-peat: 2016, 2017, 2018
- Ballon d’Or wins: 2016, 2017
- UEFA Euro champion: 2016
- All-time Champions League top scorer
- Most goals in a single UCL season: 17 goals (2013–14)

The Champions League is the equivalent of the NBA playoffs—it eclipses domestic achievements in terms of prestige, with Europe’s best clubs battling it out.

Yes, Messi won the World Cup, which is why I personally rank him ahead overall. But in terms of peak dominance—especially in clutch, high-stakes games—Ronaldo’s peak was more impactful.

[EmpireFalls]

Did Messi form super teams and still come up short?

Yes, actually. Quite a few times.

Although one could say they both played on superteams basically their entire careers. Messi had a stronger team earlier in his career, then Ronaldo moved to Madrid and eventually caught up, they were both part of trios (MSN, BBC) with star forwards, and then Ronaldo had a slightly stronger team in the late 2010s. And then there’s the international debate. Ultimately both played on elite teams at basically every juncture.

I wouldn’t even attempt to use the superteam argument in a Messi/Ronaldo debate as both played on incredibly rich and stacked teams.