The ROTY/Rookie Discussion Thread, Part III

[Duke4life831]

Jackson is better. He's been on a tear lately and can defend 1-4

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Im a big time fan of Bogdan, I can watch that dude shoot a ball all day long and I think he is the most underrated rookie so far this year and his overall game is highly underrated as well. But there are a few things, first thing first is age. Bogdan is already 25 compared to Jackson being 21. Then there is the potential thing where Jackson takes that easily because of his age and athleticism. Jackson also has the defensive potential of being a guy that guards 1-4. I like Bogdan a lot and Im sure most winning teams if they would take one of these guys for the playoffs this year they would choose Bogdan because you know he can give you that shooting. But beyond this year, if we are talking about who would GMs choose for now plus the future, I find it hard to believe there are many if any GMs that would take Bogdan over Jackson.

Your age argument on potential is valid but not relevant to a discussion of who is more worthy of an all rookie selection this year.

In terms of future potential, I think it depends on how you value BBIQ versus jump out of gym athleticism. Most non-Kings fans, who rarely watch the Kings play, think Bogdan is a shooter. He’s not. In fact, far too often Bogdan has passed up open shots this year he should have taken.

Bogi is best with the ball in his hands. His BBIQ is elite and the Kings are better when he has the ball. One of the main reasons WCS has better numbers this year is Bogdan throwing him passes at the rim. Unfortunately, WCS is the only big the Kings have who can set a good pick and roll athletically to the basket. KK, Zbo and Pappa G not athletic enough and Skal can’t set screens. Add Giles and Ayton and watch out.

Bogdan is having to adjust his definition of a good shot. In the beginning of the season, far to often, he would come around the screen and not shoot the ball. He is starting to take and make that shot when the opposing big doesn’t show. That will make his pick and roll even more deadly.

So no I wouldn’t take Jackson over Bogi despite his age because I think Bogi will be one of the elite pick and roll guards in this league for a long time. Add players like Giles to this team with high IQs and watch out what he does.

I agree that Bogdan is having a better rookie year. I do think you're slightly overrating aspects of Bogdan's game while underrating aspects of Jackson's game.

I agree that when people think of Bogdan as only a catch and shoot player they're underrating his overall game. But I'm not seeing "elite PnR guards" potential when I see him play. Again I think that aspect of his game is underrated, but he's not elite.

I also think you're kind of making a case that Jackson is just a raw athlete. Jackson has pretty damn good BBIQ himself, especially on the defensive end. Also offensively we are not only starting to see his scoring potential as of late, we are seeing his natural knack of facilitating as well with the frequency of 4-5 assists games becoming more frequent for him.

So I do agree Bogdan's game is underrated and he has had the better rookie season. But I'm still taking Jackson for the long term. Also if you think Giles is a high IQ player you will be disappointed. His game was always based around athleticism and once some of that got taken away, you could see him thinking out on the court and that was slowing him down even more.

[theo42]

Lonzo gets so much credit its mind boggling dudes the 5th best player on the team gettting most of the credit. Than again Kuzma was only good in summer league cause of Lonzo


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I would love to know the 4 you think are better?

Lonzo gets so much credit its mind boggling dudes the 5th best player on the team gettting most of the credit. Than again Kuzma was only good in summer league cause of Lonzo


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Probably because he's really good. And fun fact, we are 8-0 in the last 8 games he's played for us (he's missed time from injuries which is why that stat is relevant) But i think someone going 18/7/11/1/2 on 6/10 from 3 deserves a bit of credit.

I'm curious though, who are the 4 players on the Lakers more important than him?

Btw I’m not saying he’s not good

Actually just Kuzma, Randle, and KCP I don’t know what’s gotten into Randle


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None of those three are better.

Kuzma you can make a case for but Ball is now doing everything.

[TwoStarz]

I would love to know the 4 you think are better?

Probably because he's really good. And fun fact, we are 8-0 in the last 8 games he's played for us (he's missed time from injuries which is why that stat is relevant) But i think someone going 18/7/11/1/2 on 6/10 from 3 deserves a bit of credit.

I'm curious though, who are the 4 players on the Lakers more important than him?

Btw I’m not saying he’s not good

Actually just Kuzma, Randle, and KCP I don’t know what’s gotten into Randle


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None of those three are better.

Kuzma you can make a case for but Ball is now doing everything.

No, Kuzma you cannot make any case for. People seriously don’t even watch games and just comment on the raw box score. FYI Kuzma has been hot **** for the last 2 months. And LOL even putting KCP in the discussion


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[3toheadmelo]

jackson beastin

Read on Twitter

[Sactowndog]

Im a big time fan of Bogdan, I can watch that dude shoot a ball all day long and I think he is the most underrated rookie so far this year and his overall game is highly underrated as well. But there are a few things, first thing first is age. Bogdan is already 25 compared to Jackson being 21. Then there is the potential thing where Jackson takes that easily because of his age and athleticism. Jackson also has the defensive potential of being a guy that guards 1-4. I like Bogdan a lot and Im sure most winning teams if they would take one of these guys for the playoffs this year they would choose Bogdan because you know he can give you that shooting. But beyond this year, if we are talking about who would GMs choose for now plus the future, I find it hard to believe there are many if any GMs that would take Bogdan over Jackson.

Your age argument on potential is valid but not relevant to a discussion of who is more worthy of an all rookie selection this year.

In terms of future potential, I think it depends on how you value BBIQ versus jump out of gym athleticism. Most non-Kings fans, who rarely watch the Kings play, think Bogdan is a shooter. He’s not. In fact, far too often Bogdan has passed up open shots this year he should have taken.

Bogi is best with the ball in his hands. His BBIQ is elite and the Kings are better when he has the ball. One of the main reasons WCS has better numbers this year is Bogdan throwing him passes at the rim. Unfortunately, WCS is the only big the Kings have who can set a good pick and roll athletically to the basket. KK, Zbo and Pappa G not athletic enough and Skal can’t set screens. Add Giles and Ayton and watch out.

Bogdan is having to adjust his definition of a good shot. In the beginning of the season, far to often, he would come around the screen and not shoot the ball. He is starting to take and make that shot when the opposing big doesn’t show. That will make his pick and roll even more deadly.

So no I wouldn’t take Jackson over Bogi despite his age because I think Bogi will be one of the elite pick and roll guards in this league for a long time. Add players like Giles to this team with high IQs and watch out what he does.

I agree that Bogdan is having a better rookie year. I do think you're slightly overrating aspects of Bogdan's game while underrating aspects of Jackson's game.

I agree that when people think of Bogdan as only a catch and shoot player they're underrating his overall game. But I'm not seeing "elite PnR guards" potential when I see him play. Again I think that aspect of his game is underrated, but he's not elite.

M
I also think you're kind of making a case that Jackson is just a raw athlete. Jackson has pretty damn good BBIQ himself, especially on the defensive end. Also offensively we are not only starting to see his scoring potential as of late, we are seeing his natural knack of facilitating as well with the frequency of 4-5 assists games becoming more frequent for him.

So I do agree Bogdan's game is underrated and he has had the better rookie season. But I'm still taking Jackson for the long term. Also if you think Giles is a high IQ player you will be disappointed. His game was always based around athleticism and once some of that got taken away, you could see him thinking out on the court and that was slowing him down even more.

I think your points are fair and I admit I haven’t seen Jackson play in the last month. However, I also tend to discount low percentage scoring on tanking teams late in the year. I do think Bogdan could be that good. Most on the east coast don’t get many opportunities to see him play.

[Sactowndog]

Im a big time fan of Bogdan, I can watch that dude shoot a ball all day long and I think he is the most underrated rookie so far this year and his overall game is highly underrated as well. But there are a few things, first thing first is age. Bogdan is already 25 compared to Jackson being 21. Then there is the potential thing where Jackson takes that easily because of his age and athleticism. Jackson also has the defensive potential of being a guy that guards 1-4. I like Bogdan a lot and Im sure most winning teams if they would take one of these guys for the playoffs this year they would choose Bogdan because you know he can give you that shooting. But beyond this year, if we are talking about who would GMs choose for now plus the future, I find it hard to believe there are many if any GMs that would take Bogdan over Jackson.

Your age argument on potential is valid but not relevant to a discussion of who is more worthy of an all rookie selection this year.

In terms of future potential, I think it depends on how you value BBIQ versus jump out of gym athleticism. Most non-Kings fans, who rarely watch the Kings play, think Bogdan is a shooter. He’s not. In fact, far too often Bogdan has passed up open shots this year he should have taken.

Bogi is best with the ball in his hands. His BBIQ is elite and the Kings are better when he has the ball. One of the main reasons WCS has better numbers this year is Bogdan throwing him passes at the rim. Unfortunately, WCS is the only big the Kings have who can set a good pick and roll athletically to the basket. KK, Zbo and Pappa G not athletic enough and Skal can’t set screens. Add Giles and Ayton and watch out.

Bogdan is having to adjust his definition of a good shot. In the beginning of the season, far to often, he would come around the screen and not shoot the ball. He is starting to take and make that shot when the opposing big doesn’t show. That will make his pick and roll even more deadly.

So no I wouldn’t take Jackson over Bogi despite his age because I think Bogi will be one of the elite pick and roll guards in this league for a long time. Add players like Giles to this team with high IQs and watch out what he does.

Also if you think Giles is a high IQ player you will be disappointed. His game was always based around athleticism and once some of that got taken away, you could see him thinking out on the court and that was slowing him down even more.

I wanted to address Giles separately. You saw him at Duke and we did not. However the words coming out of Kings practices from his teammates have been glowing. Phrases of comparing him to Weber, saying he will be the best player from this draft. Also comments about his lateral quickness testing to the elite SF level and his high level passing ( why compared to Weber).

No one will really know until summer league but the reports give us some hope.

[dautjazz]

Mitchell sitting on 19.9ppg, finally about to get over to 20ppg plateau! His PER36 is 21.9ppg, wonder when was the last time a rookie averaging 30+mpg has posted 21.9ppg PER36.

Ok did the search of basketball-reference, actually not as slim a list as I thought.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_minute&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&season_start=1&season_end=1&lg_id=NBA&age_min=0&age_max=99&is_playoffs=N&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=pts_per_g_req&c1stat=pts_per_mp&c1comp=gt&c1val=21.9&order_by=ws

Used to happen a lot in the past, but over the last 20 years it's become a lot more 1 and out players in college, so it's become far less often for rookies to do. Since Sabonis did it in 1996, only Ben Gordon has done it with 22.0ppg (PER36). The way Donovan is boosting his scoring, I can see he him get near 23ppg PER36 by season's end, putting him in a class of less than 20 to have done this, or the first since David Robinson, who mind you, was 24 as a rookie. On the entire list only 8 guys were 21 or younger, including Shaq, MJ, John Drew, B.Gordon, B.King, T.Cummings, R.Barry and ofcourse Mitchell.

[WaveTheWheat80]

Mitchell sitting on 19.9ppg, finally about to get over to 20ppg plateau! His PER36 is 21.9ppg, wonder when was the last time a rookie averaging 30+mpg has posted 21.9ppg PER36.

Ok did the search of basketball-reference, actually not as slim a list as I thought.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_minute&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&season_start=1&season_end=1&lg_id=NBA&age_min=0&age_max=99&is_playoffs=N&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=pts_per_g_req&c1stat=pts_per_mp&c1comp=gt&c1val=21.9&order_by=ws

Used to happen a lot in the past, but over the last 20 years it's become a lot more 1 and out players in college, so it's become far less often for rookies to do. Since Sabonis did it in 1996, only Ben Gordon has done it with 22.0ppg (PER36). The way Donovan is boosting his scoring, I can see he him get near 23ppg PER36 by season's end, putting him in a class of less than 20 to have done this, or the first since David Robinson, who mind you, was 24 as a rookie. On the entire list only 8 guys were 21 or younger, including Shaq, MJ, John Drew, B.Gordon, B.King, T.Cummings, R.Barry and ofcourse Mitchell.

Mitchell also has more 25+ games than Durant had in his rookie year, and Mitchell still has 19 games to go, so there is that as well.

[Duke4life831]

Your age argument on potential is valid but not relevant to a discussion of who is more worthy of an all rookie selection this year.

In terms of future potential, I think it depends on how you value BBIQ versus jump out of gym athleticism. Most non-Kings fans, who rarely watch the Kings play, think Bogdan is a shooter. He’s not. In fact, far too often Bogdan has passed up open shots this year he should have taken.

Bogi is best with the ball in his hands. His BBIQ is elite and the Kings are better when he has the ball. One of the main reasons WCS has better numbers this year is Bogdan throwing him passes at the rim. Unfortunately, WCS is the only big the Kings have who can set a good pick and roll athletically to the basket. KK, Zbo and Pappa G not athletic enough and Skal can’t set screens. Add Giles and Ayton and watch out.

Bogdan is having to adjust his definition of a good shot. In the beginning of the season, far to often, he would come around the screen and not shoot the ball. He is starting to take and make that shot when the opposing big doesn’t show. That will make his pick and roll even more deadly.

So no I wouldn’t take Jackson over Bogi despite his age because I think Bogi will be one of the elite pick and roll guards in this league for a long time. Add players like Giles to this team with high IQs and watch out what he does.

Also if you think Giles is a high IQ player you will be disappointed. His game was always based around athleticism and once some of that got taken away, you could see him thinking out on the court and that was slowing him down even more.

I wanted to address Giles separately. You saw him at Duke and we did not. However the words coming out of Kings practices from his teammates have been glowing. Phrases of comparing him to Weber, saying he will be the best player from this draft. Also comments about his lateral quickness testing to the elite SF level and his high level passing ( why compared to Weber).

No one will really know until summer league but the reports give us some hope.

I hope Giles can come back and be the prospect he was in high school. His time at Duke I only heard great things when it comes to his personality and everything like that. I also thought his ability testing from the combine was a great sign of progression in his healing as well.

But at Duke a few things really showed in my opinion. He looked really hesitant because of the knees, every once in awhile you would see a smooth move, but the majority of the time it was hard to watch him move, very mechanical and stuff.

Also he was out of position a lot. It seemed like half the time he was running down the court with a hand up saying my bad, because he either made the wrong rotation defensively or offensively he wasn't where he needed to be.

So again I don't see a high BBIQ player yet. I think with him you gotta hope he can come close to the athlete he was before and that he can stay healthy. From there hopefully he can have confidence in his body again and play with the motor and intensity he played with in high school. Then from there build out his game.

[Duke4life831]

Mitchell sitting on 19.9ppg, finally about to get over to 20ppg plateau! His PER36 is 21.9ppg, wonder when was the last time a rookie averaging 30+mpg has posted 21.9ppg PER36.

Ok did the search of basketball-reference, actually not as slim a list as I thought.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_minute&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&season_start=1&season_end=1&lg_id=NBA&age_min=0&age_max=99&is_playoffs=N&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=pts_per_g_req&c1stat=pts_per_mp&c1comp=gt&c1val=21.9&order_by=ws

Used to happen a lot in the past, but over the last 20 years it's become a lot more 1 and out players in college, so it's become far less often for rookies to do. Since Sabonis did it in 1996, only Ben Gordon has done it with 22.0ppg (PER36). The way Donovan is boosting his scoring, I can see he him get near 23ppg PER36 by season's end, putting him in a class of less than 20 to have done this, or the first since David Robinson, who mind you, was 24 as a rookie. On the entire list only 8 guys were 21 or younger, including Shaq, MJ, John Drew, B.Gordon, B.King, T.Cummings, R.Barry and ofcourse Mitchell.

I looked at the list before finishing your post and was just going to say if you look at the guys that did it 21 and under the list becomes much more exclusive. Ben Gordon is the only guy on there that didn't become a multi time all Star. Ben also did it less efficiently than Mitchell.

Either way no doubt what Mitchell is doing is very impressive.

[dautjazz]

Mitchell sitting on 19.9ppg, finally about to get over to 20ppg plateau! His PER36 is 21.9ppg, wonder when was the last time a rookie averaging 30+mpg has posted 21.9ppg PER36.

Ok did the search of basketball-reference, actually not as slim a list as I thought.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_minute&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&season_start=1&season_end=1&lg_id=NBA&age_min=0&age_max=99&is_playoffs=N&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=pts_per_g_req&c1stat=pts_per_mp&c1comp=gt&c1val=21.9&order_by=ws

Used to happen a lot in the past, but over the last 20 years it's become a lot more 1 and out players in college, so it's become far less often for rookies to do. Since Sabonis did it in 1996, only Ben Gordon has done it with 22.0ppg (PER36). The way Donovan is boosting his scoring, I can see he him get near 23ppg PER36 by season's end, putting him in a class of less than 20 to have done this, or the first since David Robinson, who mind you, was 24 as a rookie. On the entire list only 8 guys were 21 or younger, including Shaq, MJ, John Drew, B.Gordon, B.King, T.Cummings, R.Barry and ofcourse Mitchell.

Mitchell also has more 25+ games than Durant had in his rookie year, and Mitchell still has 19 games to go, so there is that as well.

With all fairness to Durant though, he was barely 19 when he started his rookie campaign, literally turned 19 in training camp. Scoring 20ppg at that age is nothing short of phenomenal.

[dautjazz]

Mitchell sitting on 19.9ppg, finally about to get over to 20ppg plateau! His PER36 is 21.9ppg, wonder when was the last time a rookie averaging 30+mpg has posted 21.9ppg PER36.

Ok did the search of basketball-reference, actually not as slim a list as I thought.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_minute&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&season_start=1&season_end=1&lg_id=NBA&age_min=0&age_max=99&is_playoffs=N&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=pts_per_g_req&c1stat=pts_per_mp&c1comp=gt&c1val=21.9&order_by=ws

Used to happen a lot in the past, but over the last 20 years it's become a lot more 1 and out players in college, so it's become far less often for rookies to do. Since Sabonis did it in 1996, only Ben Gordon has done it with 22.0ppg (PER36). The way Donovan is boosting his scoring, I can see he him get near 23ppg PER36 by season's end, putting him in a class of less than 20 to have done this, or the first since David Robinson, who mind you, was 24 as a rookie. On the entire list only 8 guys were 21 or younger, including Shaq, MJ, John Drew, B.Gordon, B.King, T.Cummings, R.Barry and ofcourse Mitchell.

I looked at the list before finishing your post and was just going to say if you look at the guys that did it 21 and under the list becomes much more exclusive. Ben Gordon is the only guy on there that didn't become a multi time all Star. Ben also did it less efficiently than Mitchell.

Either way no doubt what Mitchell is doing is very impressive.

Yeah, and of the other seven 21 or younger group to do this, 4 have a scoring title (MJ, Shaq, King, and Barry). It certainly wouldn't surprise me if Donovan were a 30ppg scorer in his prime.

[Duke4life831]

Mitchell sitting on 19.9ppg, finally about to get over to 20ppg plateau! His PER36 is 21.9ppg, wonder when was the last time a rookie averaging 30+mpg has posted 21.9ppg PER36.

Ok did the search of basketball-reference, actually not as slim a list as I thought.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_minute&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&season_start=1&season_end=1&lg_id=NBA&age_min=0&age_max=99&is_playoffs=N&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=pts_per_g_req&c1stat=pts_per_mp&c1comp=gt&c1val=21.9&order_by=ws

Used to happen a lot in the past, but over the last 20 years it's become a lot more 1 and out players in college, so it's become far less often for rookies to do. Since Sabonis did it in 1996, only Ben Gordon has done it with 22.0ppg (PER36). The way Donovan is boosting his scoring, I can see he him get near 23ppg PER36 by season's end, putting him in a class of less than 20 to have done this, or the first since David Robinson, who mind you, was 24 as a rookie. On the entire list only 8 guys were 21 or younger, including Shaq, MJ, John Drew, B.Gordon, B.King, T.Cummings, R.Barry and ofcourse Mitchell.

I looked at the list before finishing your post and was just going to say if you look at the guys that did it 21 and under the list becomes much more exclusive. Ben Gordon is the only guy on there that didn't become a multi time all Star. Ben also did it less efficiently than Mitchell.

Either way no doubt what Mitchell is doing is very impressive.

Yeah, and of the other seven 21 or younger group to do this, 4 have a scoring title (MJ, Shaq, King, and Barry). It certainly wouldn't surprise me if Donovan were a 30ppg scorer in his prime.

Ya and I think Mitchell has a lot of things going for him when it comes to his scoring potential. As a rookie guard he is shooting 50% on 2pt shots and 65% at the rim and 84% at the line. To me those are tremendous building blocks going forward. Even if he never becomes a knock down 3pt shooter, he has a lot of scoring tools to fall back on. Also I really like his shooting form, add on his FT shooting, it appears he has all the potential you'd like for a guy to become a good 3pt shooter.

I'm not sure if he will ever become a 30ppg guy. That's not because I doubt his scoring potential, I'm just not sure he will ever be on a team where he is taking 20+ shots a game. But I think an efficient 25-27ppg scorer is definitely within his ceiling if he becomes a more consistent 3pt shooter.

[kuclas]

Also if you think Giles is a high IQ player you will be disappointed. His game was always based around athleticism and once some of that got taken away, you could see him thinking out on the court and that was slowing him down even more.

I wanted to address Giles separately. You saw him at Duke and we did not. However the words coming out of Kings practices from his teammates have been glowing. Phrases of comparing him to Weber, saying he will be the best player from this draft. Also comments about his lateral quickness testing to the elite SF level and his high level passing ( why compared to Weber).

No one will really know until summer league but the reports give us some hope.

I hope Giles can come back and be the prospect he was in high school. His time at Duke I only heard great things when it comes to his personality and everything like that. I also thought his ability testing from the combine was a great sign of progression in his healing as well.

But at Duke a few things really showed in my opinion. He looked really hesitant because of the knees, every once in awhile you would see a smooth move, but the majority of the time it was hard to watch him move, very mechanical and stuff.

Also he was out of position a lot. It seemed like half the time he was running down the court with a hand up saying my bad, because he either made the wrong rotation defensively or offensively he wasn't where he needed to be.

So again I don't see a high BBIQ player yet. I think with him you gotta hope he can come close to the athlete he was before and that he can stay healthy. From there hopefully he can have confidence in his body again and play with the motor and intensity he played with in high school. Then from there build out his game.

Giles is status hard to quantify due to his injuries. Wasting a 20th overall? 1st round pick on him is no biggie if he never plays or complete bust.

Some people hope Giles can return from injury and be elite like how Joel Embiid sat out and came back.

But Giles never showed dominance in college. And that’s scary. Until he’s able to dominant against real talent. All we have is high school highlights pre injury. That’s not enough

Hope kid can eventually play and show us what’s he’s got

[Duke4life831]

I wanted to address Giles separately. You saw him at Duke and we did not. However the words coming out of Kings practices from his teammates have been glowing. Phrases of comparing him to Weber, saying he will be the best player from this draft. Also comments about his lateral quickness testing to the elite SF level and his high level passing ( why compared to Weber).

No one will really know until summer league but the reports give us some hope.

I hope Giles can come back and be the prospect he was in high school. His time at Duke I only heard great things when it comes to his personality and everything like that. I also thought his ability testing from the combine was a great sign of progression in his healing as well.

But at Duke a few things really showed in my opinion. He looked really hesitant because of the knees, every once in awhile you would see a smooth move, but the majority of the time it was hard to watch him move, very mechanical and stuff.

Also he was out of position a lot. It seemed like half the time he was running down the court with a hand up saying my bad, because he either made the wrong rotation defensively or offensively he wasn't where he needed to be.

So again I don't see a high BBIQ player yet. I think with him you gotta hope he can come close to the athlete he was before and that he can stay healthy. From there hopefully he can have confidence in his body again and play with the motor and intensity he played with in high school. Then from there build out his game.

Giles is status hard to quantify due to his injuries. Wasting a 20th overall? 1st round pick on him is no biggie if he never plays or complete bust.

Some people hope Giles can return from injury and be elite like how Joel Embiid sat out and came back.

But Giles never showed dominance in college. And that’s scary. Until he’s able to dominant against real talent. All we have is high school highlights pre injury. That’s not enough

Hope kid can eventually play and show us what’s he’s got

Oh I agree that he was totally worth it at the 20 pick. And ya he had his injuries before college so its hard to tell if his average year in college was just due to recovering from his injuries plus the jump up in competition, or was he a guy that just dominated high school because he was bigger than everyone else. We dont know the answer to that one and I dont think we will ever really know because I doubt he ever gets back to the athlete he was in high school.

But ya as a team just starting their rebuild and him as your 3rd 1st round pick in the draft, I think he was a great selection. To me it was a very low risk high reward situation for SAC. Very curious on how he is going to look next year, with sitting out all year working out and rehabbing.

[levon]

thus far who's the defensive Rookie of the year....is it Jarrett Allen? is it Zo? is it JosH Jackson?

Is this a serious question?

Simmons in the top 5 in the NBA in DPBM and DWS. In the ENTIRE NBA.

Dude should legit get All-Defensive Team votes. As the comment above points out, it is one of the things about Simmons is ALWAYS overlooked in the ROY discussion. Dude stuffs the stat sheet...runs the point on one of the hottest teams in the NBA and is an elite defender.

It is a damn shame that the dude DOESN’T GET POINTZ!!!

Kind of misleading. Simmons is 9th in DWS per game at 0.053. Ball in comparison is tied with Tatum at 0.052.
And I would stay away from DBPM as it's notoriously bad for capturing defensive ability (a lot of defensive stats are) and is probably overvaluing his rebounds at PG even though he's 6 10. Simmons is 36th in DRPM in the NBA, Ball 47th for comparison.

[bebopdeluxe]

thus far who's the defensive Rookie of the year....is it Jarrett Allen? is it Zo? is it JosH Jackson?

Is this a serious question?

Simmons in the top 5 in the NBA in DPBM and DWS. In the ENTIRE NBA.

Dude should legit get All-Defensive Team votes. As the comment above points out, it is one of the things about Simmons is ALWAYS overlooked in the ROY discussion. Dude stuffs the stat sheet...runs the point on one of the hottest teams in the NBA and is an elite defender.

It is a damn shame that the dude DOESN’T GET POINTZ!!!

Kind of misleading. Simmons is 9th in DWS per game at 0.053. Ball in comparison is tied with Tatum at 0.052.
And I would stay away from DBPM as it's notoriously bad for capturing defensive ability (a lot of defensive stats are) and is probably overvaluing his rebounds at PG even though he's 6 10. Simmons is 36th in DRPM in the NBA, Ball 47th for comparison.

According to Basketball Reference, Simmons is 5th in DBPM and 3rd in DWS. I did not know that BR was an unacceptable source for advanced basketball stats.

He is also 19th in VORP and 12th in Defensive Rating. In the ENTIRE NBA.

[levon]

According to Basketball Reference, Simmons is 5th in DBPM and 3rd in DWS. I did not know that BR was an unacceptable source for advanced basketball stats.

He is also 19th in VORP and 12th in Defensive Rating. In the ENTIRE NBA.

Your stats are correct, I'm just saying they're misleading. DWS are cummulative, so it might make sense to look at them per game, since while availability is a talent, you can assume players will defend reasonably similarly had they played the 10 games they missed due to freak injuries. Of course removing obvious non-qualifiers like Kawhi and Travis Wear:

https://stats.nba.com/players/defense/?sort=DEF_WS&dir=-1

And DBPM is meant to estimate DRPM, but we have DRPM, and Simmons is 36th.

[bebopdeluxe]

Again, just for clarity (per Basketball Reference):

OWS: Simmons 2.4, Mitchell 1.1
DWS: Simmons 3.5, Mitchell 2.4
WS : Simmons 5.9, Mitchell 3.5
OBPM: Simmons 0.5, Mitchell 1.4
DBPM: Simmons 3.3, Mitchell -0.5 (?!?)
BPM: Simmons 3.7, Mitchell 0.9
VORP: Simmons 3.0, Mitchell 1.4

That is an advanced metrics BLOWOUT, ladies and gentleman.

I understand that Mitchell is the key scorer for a team trying to make the playoffs...but Simmons is the POINT GUARD for a team that won 28 games last season and could win 20 more games this season. I understand that Simmons has Embiid, but Mitchell has Gobert - who is arguably as important to the Jazz as Embiid is to the Sixers.

I understand that a rookie scoring 20 ppg is unique and special, and being 26th in the league in scoring is quite an accomplishment. However, as the above list makes abundantly clear, looking at the two players by any other statistical measure shows complete domination by Simmons. When you combine what Simmons is doing - including on the defensive end - with his role as the point guard (an arguably more challenging position for a rookie than a shooting guard) on a team that is going to win 20 more games year-over-year, I am convinced that if Mitchell wins ROY it will be in no small measure because of "process haters" and those who value DUNKZ and POINTZ over everything else.

[Sactowndog]

Also if you think Giles is a high IQ player you will be disappointed. His game was always based around athleticism and once some of that got taken away, you could see him thinking out on the court and that was slowing him down even more.

I wanted to address Giles separately. You saw him at Duke and we did not. However the words coming out of Kings practices from his teammates have been glowing. Phrases of comparing him to Weber, saying he will be the best player from this draft. Also comments about his lateral quickness testing to the elite SF level and his high level passing ( why compared to Weber).

No one will really know until summer league but the reports give us some hope.

I hope Giles can come back and be the prospect he was in high school. His time at Duke I only heard great things when it comes to his personality and everything like that. I also thought his ability testing from the combine was a great sign of progression in his healing as well.

But at Duke a few things really showed in my opinion. He looked really hesitant because of the knees, every once in awhile you would see a smooth move, but the majority of the time it was hard to watch him move, very mechanical and stuff.

Also he was out of position a lot. It seemed like half the time he was running down the court with a hand up saying my bad, because he either made the wrong rotation defensively or offensively he wasn't where he needed to be.

So again I don't see a high BBIQ player yet. I think with him you gotta hope he can come close to the athlete he was before and that he can stay healthy. From there hopefully he can have confidence in his body again and play with the motor and intensity he played with in high school. Then from there build out his game.

Again your points are fair but if he was worrying about his knees that could/would get in the way of his on court processing.

I think the Kings have done this correctly in a way colleges could not. They have been focusing on building core strength and gaining confidence in the knees. From there, he has gradually been increasing his reps in practice and spending one on one time with ZBo.

What are the results? None of us know. We are hearing rumors in Sac but summer league will be the first time we really get to see. The rumors are tantalizing but as of now they are just rumors.