76ers back to fining Ben Simmons

[kuclas]

And yes. If the difference between getting role players thar still get sixers booted in the second round Vs letting Simmons rot. I choose to let Simmons rot.

Is that the difference, though? Or have you simply convinced yourself that this is the difference because you're pissed at the guy?

And I get being pissed at Simmons. You're a Sixers fan so the stance makes sense. I just don't see why you're fine with your team wasting Embiid's prime in order to win this pissing contest.

Embiid is always a ticking time bomb. Wasting a player’s prime. Said can be said about Portland wasting lillard’s prime.

It’s just not about being pissed. It’s about the player(s) coming back in a trade. Sixers need
1. Point guard PLUS a iso scorer down the stretch to help out embiid. Preferably in one player.

Pacers offered brodgon and a mid
First. Look at the pacers. Going no where

Who knows what Portland offered besides CJ. Probably not much more. And the only reason to move on from CJ is he’s just as expensive as Simmons. Older and they have cheaper norm Powell to replace CJ. CJ doesn’t move the needle. He’s gonna to be picked on for his defense as well. Sixers perimeter defense is already taking a big hit with no Simmons on the floor. CJ will be a huge water leak out there. Only so much embiid can do to protect in space to cover for Cj lack of defense.

And yes. Simmons best move would have been to show up and play a few games in regular season to make people forget about the playoffs. But he’s not gonna to do that. But you don’t reward bad behavior. He’s got a contract. Honor it. This is unprecedented what Simmons is doing. It’s one thing for sixers to be rebuilding and Simmons wanting out with 4 years left. But they aren’t.

My best bet is Simmons sits entire season. And sixers figure out in the off season. For all we know. Money will let Simmons sit out for as long as it takes. The owners and fans are ok with that. Cause the players proposed in trades aren’t gonna get the sixers past the nets anyways.

[Asianiac_24]

If the Sixers can't get a star back, they won't win anyways. Ben Simmons is really their only trading chip to win a championship. Why would trading Ben for CJ be better? Sitting Ben and tanking for a year in order to accumulate draft assets for a major trade is more beneficial to the Sixers championship window

[dhsilv2]

Because they're not all underpaid. The top 5-10 are arguably underpaid (if they're not on a supermax) but the drop off is steep once you get outside of that.

Because the league min is something like 925k I suppose there's some truth here.

Just for fun and to see how far off I might be. Top 380 players in VORP last year I set to have a min salary at 925k. After 380 I set it to 150k as I don't know? But with 500+ guys playing last year, there's no way they all got even that so I'm likely stealing a lot of money from the active player's here.

I then spread out total salary by VORP which is as logical a way to do it as there is.

Simmons comes in worth about 30 million, almost on the dot, so I guess he's marginally over paid by a meaningless amount. That's clearly just one metric and a crude methodology, but I think it roughly does the job. This model shows 44 players are wroth about 28 million a year or more which is right around the initial max levels we see. 17 players should make over the 45 million or roughly what the super max is paying. Jokic, Curry, and Giannis are worth about 250 million combined lol

Then you get to another issue which is even if a player is worth his money according to the formula you laid out, is it a good idea to pay that player that money in terms of team building. Opinions on that are going to differ player to player and team to team. Those dollars can't be spent twice so there's a definite opportunity cost. Also, a player can be top 20 when he signs but fall off quite a bit over the course of the contract.

The thing is most of the guys worth that kind of money, you can't even pay them that much. so there's a lot of "free money" left in the system to chase players...

But yes in magical fairy land the dream is to under pay your stars and overpay your reserves/and fillers so you create some insane super team. But to do that you just need sheer dumb luck.

[Myth]

So… what’s going on with this situation? Who’s going to blink first?

I’m hoping it is Embiid when he realizes 76ers could get him help but would rather play chicken with Ben Simmons and Klutch. It is too early for that, but if this really goes years as Morey says he is willing to, it could come to that.

[Tor_Raps]

If the Sixers can't get a star back, they won't win anyways. Ben Simmons is really their only trading chip to win a championship. Why would trading Ben for CJ be better? Sitting Ben and tanking for a year in order to accumulate draft assets for a major trade is more beneficial to the Sixers championship window

But are the Sixers even going to do that? They're trying to win and will most likely be a first round exit if things stand as is and I'm sure Embiid will be happy with all this...

[dhsilv2]

So… what’s going on with this situation? Who’s going to blink first?

I’m hoping it is Embiid when he realizes 76ers could get him help but would rather play chicken with Ben Simmons and Klutch. It is too early for that, but if this really goes years as Morey says he is willing to, it could come to that.

If they can't get a star for simmons, embiid has to be traded anyway...

[MrBigShot]

Question to you and anyone who feels Morey should be fired: do you think any of the packages he could've gotten would improved the team enough to be a legitimate contender? Because if not, then he'd still be wasting Embiid's prime. I just don't see Brogdon or McCollum + picks elevating the sixers to contender status. Morey has no obligation to trade Simmons if it wont improve the team.

As far as the implications of this situation, I think it will be one of the major catalysts towards changes to the next CBA.

Yes, the Sixers would be legitimate contenders if they had completed some of the deals that were rumored this summer. The fact is that Embiid and Simmons never fit well together. Simmons' utter lack of range doesn't fit well with a Center like Embiid. McCollum may not be as good of an overall player as Simmons is but his fit with Embiid is 10 times better and that's what should matter here.

Embiid is a top 10 (if not top 5) player. He is the one that the Sixers should be building around. What the Sixers lacked last year in their loss to the Hawks was shot creation. The Hawks had a plethora of players who could create their own shot. They had Trae, their star, but they also had players like Bogdanović, Gallo and Huerter who could create their own when the situation called for it. Heck, Huerter's 27 kinda won them that game 7.

The Sixers had Embiid, their star, and then Tobias and Seth Curry. Those were the 3 guys who took the majority of the shots. Ben Simmons attempted less shots (45) than Furkan Korkmaz (48) despite the fact that he played 242 minutes to Kormaz's 139. Heck, Lou Williams, who only played 98 minutes for the Hawks, attempted 41 shots, only 4 shots less than Simmons did. Again, Simmons played 242 minutes. And, yes, shot creation isn't all about shooting on your own. You can create for others and Simmons did do that (he had 60 assists). But when the defense knows that you aren't going to shoot the ball and that your intend is to pass then they are free to play for that pass and snuff out passing lanes. That kind of lack of scoring threat destroys a ball-handler's gravity. Ben is basically a reverse Steph. Steph's gravity creates passing lanes out of nowhere whereas Ben's utter lack of gravity snuffs out passing lanes that normally would be there.

There's no doubt in my mind that the Sixers would have made the ECF last year if they had someone like McCollum (CJ is an example here, I'm only using him because he was one of the rumored deals and you mentioned him as well) instead of Simmons.

We will just have to agree to disagree here. A deal centered around Brogdon or McCollum imo would make the team worse than last year imo, the loss of Simmons' defense and playmaking would off-set what they gain in spacing and fit from either of those guys.

[celticfan42487]

Question to you and anyone who feels Morey should be fired: do you think any of the packages he could've gotten would improved the team enough to be a legitimate contender? Because if not, then he'd still be wasting Embiid's prime. I just don't see Brogdon or McCollum + picks elevating the sixers to contender status. Morey has no obligation to trade Simmons if it wont improve the team.

As far as the implications of this situation, I think it will be one of the major catalysts towards changes to the next CBA.

Yes, the Sixers would be legitimate contenders if they had completed some of the deals that were rumored this summer. The fact is that Embiid and Simmons never fit well together. Simmons' utter lack of range doesn't fit well with a Center like Embiid. McCollum may not be as good of an overall player as Simmons is but his fit with Embiid is 10 times better and that's what should matter here.

Embiid is a top 10 (if not top 5) player. He is the one that the Sixers should be building around. What the Sixers lacked last year in their loss to the Hawks was shot creation. The Hawks had a plethora of players who could create their own shot. They had Trae, their star, but they also had players like Bogdanović, Gallo and Huerter who could create their own when the situation called for it. Heck, Huerter's 27 kinda won them that game 7.

The Sixers had Embiid, their star, and then Tobias and Seth Curry. Those were the 3 guys who took the majority of the shots. Ben Simmons attempted less shots (45) than Furkan Korkmaz (48) despite the fact that he played 242 minutes to Kormaz's 139. Heck, Lou Williams, who only played 98 minutes for the Hawks, attempted 41 shots, only 4 shots less than Simmons did. Again, Simmons played 242 minutes. And, yes, shot creation isn't all about shooting on your own. You can create for others and Simmons did do that (he had 60 assists). But when the defense knows that you aren't going to shoot the ball and that your intend is to pass then they are free to play for that pass and snuff out passing lanes. That kind of lack of scoring threat destroys a ball-handler's gravity. Ben is basically a reverse Steph. Steph's gravity creates passing lanes out of nowhere whereas Ben's utter lack of gravity snuffs out passing lanes that normally would be there.

There's no doubt in my mind that the Sixers would have made the ECF last year if they had someone like McCollum (CJ is an example here, I'm only using him because he was one of the rumored deals and you mentioned him as well) instead of Simmons.

We will just have to agree to disagree here. A deal centered around Brogdon or McCollum imo would make the team worse than last year imo, the loss of Simmons' defense and playmaking would off-set what they gain in spacing and fit from either of those guys.

Hmm, for what it's worth I disagree and think the spacing gain would be worth it. But because Seth is a sieve on defense it really is Brogdon or bust as he could cover the SG spot and Seth take the PGs.

But I think their playmaking is enough. It puts a ton of pressure on Embiid to center the defense and the offense and I doubt he has the stamina, but if I'm wrong and Embiid really is an MVP level player and that dude than it should work in theory.

Wouldn't be favorites mind you, but they'd be in the conversation for sure. Moreso than with Simmons who just is an awful fit and needs to be playing the Center position for his next team (or occupying that space on defense and offense with a floor spacing C or PF next to him).

[Lockdown504090]

ben must be getting really good at shooting the basketball right now. hes been training for like 5 months on it. i wonder how long he holds out.

[Tomjas]

Yes, the Sixers would be legitimate contenders if they had completed some of the deals that were rumored this summer. The fact is that Embiid and Simmons never fit well together. Simmons' utter lack of range doesn't fit well with a Center like Embiid. McCollum may not be as good of an overall player as Simmons is but his fit with Embiid is 10 times better and that's what should matter here.

Embiid is a top 10 (if not top 5) player. He is the one that the Sixers should be building around. What the Sixers lacked last year in their loss to the Hawks was shot creation. The Hawks had a plethora of players who could create their own shot. They had Trae, their star, but they also had players like Bogdanović, Gallo and Huerter who could create their own when the situation called for it. Heck, Huerter's 27 kinda won them that game 7.

The Sixers had Embiid, their star, and then Tobias and Seth Curry. Those were the 3 guys who took the majority of the shots. Ben Simmons attempted less shots (45) than Furkan Korkmaz (48) despite the fact that he played 242 minutes to Kormaz's 139. Heck, Lou Williams, who only played 98 minutes for the Hawks, attempted 41 shots, only 4 shots less than Simmons did. Again, Simmons played 242 minutes. And, yes, shot creation isn't all about shooting on your own. You can create for others and Simmons did do that (he had 60 assists). But when the defense knows that you aren't going to shoot the ball and that your intend is to pass then they are free to play for that pass and snuff out passing lanes. That kind of lack of scoring threat destroys a ball-handler's gravity. Ben is basically a reverse Steph. Steph's gravity creates passing lanes out of nowhere whereas Ben's utter lack of gravity snuffs out passing lanes that normally would be there.

There's no doubt in my mind that the Sixers would have made the ECF last year if they had someone like McCollum (CJ is an example here, I'm only using him because he was one of the rumored deals and you mentioned him as well) instead of Simmons.

We will just have to agree to disagree here. A deal centered around Brogdon or McCollum imo would make the team worse than last year imo, the loss of Simmons' defense and playmaking would off-set what they gain in spacing and fit from either of those guys.

Hmm, for what it's worth I disagree and think the spacing gain would be worth it. But because Seth is a sieve on defense it really is Brogdon or bust as he could cover the SG spot and Seth take the PGs.

But I think their playmaking is enough. It puts a ton of pressure on Embiid to center the defense and the offense and I doubt he has the stamina, but if I'm wrong and Embiid really is an MVP level player and that dude than it should work in theory.

Wouldn't be favorites mind you, but they'd be in the conversation for sure. Moreso than with Simmons who just is an awful fit and needs to be playing the Center position for his next team (or occupying that space on defense and offense with a floor spacing C or PF next to him).

Simmons is arguably the world’s best perimeter defender

Playing him at 5 on defence is a complete waste as it lessens his impact

[sfballa13]

So… what’s going on with this situation? Who’s going to blink first?

I’m hoping it is Embiid when he realizes 76ers could get him help but would rather play chicken with Ben Simmons and Klutch. It is too early for that, but if this really goes years as Morey says he is willing to, it could come to that.

It's lose-lose for Embiid.

Let's say Morey doesnt trade Simmons this season - Sixers most likely will go out in the 1st round.

Now comes the offseason where Philly is even more desperate for a trade after Simmons sat out the entire season.

Ben's trade value will be even lower than it is now.

What team is going to want to give up huge pieces to a desperate team for a player who has no problems sitting out an entire season?

[cl2117]

So… what’s going on with this situation? Who’s going to blink first?

I’m hoping it is Embiid when he realizes 76ers could get him help but would rather play chicken with Ben Simmons and Klutch. It is too early for that, but if this really goes years as Morey says he is willing to, it could come to that.

It's lose-lose for Embiid.

Let's say Morey doesnt trade Simmons this season - Sixers most likely will go out in the 1st round.

Now comes the offseason where Philly is even more desperate for a trade after Simmons sat out the entire season.

Ben's trade value will be even lower than it is now.

What team is going to want to give up huge pieces to a desperate team for a player who has no problems sitting out an entire season?

I don't know. With the way the NBA goes I think it's a pretty safe bet that there are going to be a couple teams that get desperate in the next 12 months. I think this could work out for Morey eventually.

The problem is that Simmons as a player isn't a cog that fits with just anyone. He's a very specific kind of talent and he's paid a LOT of money, so it's just a matter of whether the teams that get desperate are teams that want Simmons specifically. Or are they teams that will want a shooter or draft capital or whatever.

It's a gamble for sure, but I do think there is the possibility that the Sixers eventually hit pay dirt with a team that's got a gun to their head from their own star and is willing to roll the dice on Simmons (or maybe a star who pushes their way to Philly to play with Embiid).

[Tomjas]

Simmons is significantly better than a player like Beal

Beal doesn’t win games

Simmons does

If Morey waits for a Beal trade just to appease Sixers fans looking for a name then ….

[Onlytimewilltel]

And yes. If the difference between getting role players thar still get sixers booted in the second round Vs letting Simmons rot. I choose to let Simmons rot.

Is that the difference, though? Or have you simply convinced yourself that this is the difference because you're pissed at the guy?

And I get being pissed at Simmons. You're a Sixers fan so the stance makes sense. I just don't see why you're fine with your team wasting Embiid's prime in order to win this pissing contest.

Embiid is always a ticking time bomb. Wasting a player’s prime. Said can be said about Portland wasting lillard’s prime.

It’s just not about being pissed. It’s about the player(s) coming back in a trade. Sixers need
1. Point guard PLUS a iso scorer down the stretch to help out embiid. Preferably in one player.

Pacers offered brodgon and a mid
First. Look at the pacers. Going no where

Who knows what Portland offered besides CJ. Probably not much more. And the only reason to move on from CJ is he’s just as expensive as Simmons. Older and they have cheaper norm Powell to replace CJ. CJ doesn’t move the needle. He’s gonna to be picked on for his defense as well. Sixers perimeter defense is already taking a big hit with no Simmons on the floor. CJ will be a huge water leak out there. Only so much embiid can do to protect in space to cover for Cj lack of defense.

And yes. Simmons best move would have been to show up and play a few games in regular season to make people forget about the playoffs. But he’s not gonna to do that. But you don’t reward bad behavior. He’s got a contract. Honor it. This is unprecedented what Simmons is doing. It’s one thing for sixers to be rebuilding and Simmons wanting out with 4 years left. But they aren’t.

My best bet is Simmons sits entire season. And sixers figure out in the off season. For all we know. Money will let Simmons sit out for as long as it takes. The owners and fans are ok with that. Cause the players proposed in trades aren’t gonna get the sixers past the nets anyways.

Bingo

[Onlytimewilltel]

What’s the latest on this, is Simmons still getting paid or are his mental issues helping him recoup his monies?

[Tomjas]

What’s the latest on this, is Simmons still getting paid or are his mental issues helping him recoup his monies?

Nobody knows

[Bum Adebayo]

Simmons is significantly better than a player like Beal

Beal doesn’t win games

Simmons does

If Morey waits for a Beal trade just to appease Sixers fans looking for a name then ….

Give me Beal over Simmons any day of the week.

[VDT]

Agree to disagree. The Hawks were pretty damn good which is why they performed similarly with last year's WC Champion, the Suns. The Suns were clearly one of the two best teams in the WC last year, coming 2nd in the RS and reaching the Finals, so if they performed similarly to them, they really cannot be as mediocre as you claim.

The Hawks were the 5th seed last year and they are 11th this year. All three teams (Bucks, Suns, Hawks) are getting overrated simply because everyone else was injured in the last playoffs. Had the Nets been somewhat healthy, the Bucks would be out in the second round, it wouldnt even be close.

Right and a big reason why the Sixers choked was Ben Simmons. The post-process 76ers have always struggled with closing out games and a huge reason why is because Simmons puts the team at a clear disadvantage on offense during those periods. The guy simply isn't a threat to score and that forces the team to play 4 vs 5. Replace that with a player who is a threat to score during those periods and the Sixers would have had a lot more post-season success.

Replacing Simmons with a player who is a threat to score late isn't just a small tweak. It's a necessary upgrade.

Simmons bad performance contributed of course to the loss, but lets not kidd ourselves. You dont go from losing to this Hawks team to becoming a champio by replacing Simmons with CJ or Siakam. If anything you become worse. Simmons is a bad overall fit but he had found his niche in the team. Defender, playmaker, rebounder and without the need to get a lot of touches. In that regard it is a good fit, he is not a good fit as a max player when your best player is a center. However, the Sixers dont need some more middling offensive threats, they have enough with Curry, Harris, Maxey etc. What they need is a shot creator that can play that role efficiently at the highest level, otherwise Simmons all around game might be better than another guy that will want touches without being very good at it (e.g. CJ)

And I assert that the main thing that limits the Sixers in their playoff runs is Ben Simmons and the problems that he causes for his team's offense in the halfcourt, especially late in games when the pace slows down.

Simmons by himself is not the issue, he is not ideal but his all aound game is valuable in a vacuum. Simmons as a max player on a team without a great perimeter player is a problem but breaking him into a couple average/above average players will not solve anything. Embiid's positional limitations and his inability to play heavy minutes, while maintaining his level of play, in the postseason makes it necessary for the Sixers to have a 1b perimeter option offensively, if they want to become real contenders.

As for the "I don't trust them in later playoff rounds" the last few years have shown us that this argument doesn't hold much weight. Last year, we saw a 3rd-year Kevin Huerter win a game 7 for the Hawks. We saw Jrue Holiday, a very good player who has never been an All-Star and can be seen as being on a similar level with the players I mentioned, be one of the most crucial players for a title team. A year before that, in the bubble, we saw a then 2nd-year Tyler Herro be a key cog to a cinderella run by a Heat team that no one expected and made the Finals. So, no, don't give me that. Yes, star power is still important and will always be important but there's plenty of room for other players to show up in the playoffs and help put their team over the hump.

Yes, players can have fluke performances for a game or two, what does this prove? Take CJ for example, he is a 30 year old short, no defense, guard who is a career 53%TS scorer in the postseason as the second option on a team that is usually eliminated in the first round. Sure, he might have a good game, but he is not getting you anywhere and it is unrealistic to expect that. I dont even think his no defense, low efficiency game has a place on a contending team. Again, the Sixers dont need another mediocre shot creator, they have those already. They need a star level (at least) perimeter player with at least some playmaking abilities, which is why Morey was so focused on Harden.

Not really. I never said that I hold the only truth or that others aren't entitled to their opinion. All I'm doing is stating my opinion. I can definitely be wrong and I never claimed otherwise. I'm not making any authoritative statements here.

You dont just state your opinion though. You call Morey ego-driven just because he has a different view of the current situation. You can disagree all you want but dont try to take the moral high ground and attach selfish motives to people that disagree with you.

[pcbothwel]

If the Sixers can't get a star back, they won't win anyways. Ben Simmons is really their only trading chip to win a championship. Why would trading Ben for CJ be better? Sitting Ben and tanking for a year in order to accumulate draft assets for a major trade is more beneficial to the Sixers championship window

Why do people keep saying this? As if any asset that Philly gets in a Simmons trade is part of their core...
If you trade Simmons for a lesser player and assets (I.E. CJ and a pick or two), then you not only have a borderline all star that can help win now, but future picks that can be used to attain another piece. We all know every year or so there are stars who demand/are forced out.
Philly can simply position themselves with young players (Thybulle, Maxey, Springer, Reed, etc.) and future 1st so they can be in position to get a star at later date. Forcing Simmons to recoup that value all in one fell swoop seems to show a lack of creativity.

[Nuntius]

Embiid is always a ticking time bomb. Wasting a player’s prime. Said can be said about Portland wasting lillard’s prime.

The difference is that Portland tried to get Dame help. They did everything in their power to win but they got sidetracked by unfortunate injuries to key players. It didn't work in the end but they did reach the Conference Finals.

Morey, on the other hand, is currently refusing to get Embiid the help he needs. He isn't doing everything in his power to win. That's my opinion on it, at least. You are free to disagree.

It’s just not about being pissed. It’s about the player(s) coming back in a trade. Sixers need
1. Point guard PLUS a iso scorer down the stretch to help out embiid. Preferably in one player.

Pacers offered brodgon and a mid
First. Look at the pacers. Going no where

Who knows what Portland offered besides CJ. Probably not much more. And the only reason to move on from CJ is he’s just as expensive as Simmons. Older and they have cheaper norm Powell to replace CJ. CJ doesn’t move the needle. He’s gonna to be picked on for his defense as well. Sixers perimeter defense is already taking a big hit with no Simmons on the floor. CJ will be a huge water leak out there. Only so much embiid can do to protect in space to cover for Cj lack of defense.

Both Brogdon and McCollum help Embiid a lot more in the end of games than Simmons does. Are they worse players overall? For sure. But their fit is much better.