2022-23 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt.1)

[CobraCommander]

Jokic won't win for the same reason LeBron didn't win in 2011 or Giannis in 2021. They didn't want to give it to someone for the third time in the row.
LeBron finished 2nd or 3rd (Howard?) in 2011, Giannis 4th(...) in 2021.
It's not fair and it's stupid (the whole "voter fatigue") but it exists.

What was exactly argument for Giannis over Jokic in 2021?
And I don't thing LeBron deserved it in 2011 either. If you form a super-duper-hipper team, one of the best ever regarding star power, aren't expectations super high then? I mean to win at least 60 games, not to be 3rd in the NBA in standings.

None. There was no real argument against him being in the top3 conversation either.
But he finished 4th in the voting. Not even 3rd. Steph finished 3rd as an 8th seed.
As for LeBron, i didn't have problem with Rose getting it(or Dwight). LeBron had a superteam of three star players and a supporting cast of nonames. His stats were great and a 3rd seed isn't against him.
All I'm saying is that voter fatigue is a thing and it will cost to Jokic no matter how good he plays.

We need to restart the poll again so I can change my vote...or is it possible to do it like the NBA does it where you vote for first second and 3rd place....

Cause right now it’s Jokic 1, Tatum 2, Giannis 3, Luka 4, ZION 5, KD 6, Mitchell 7,sabonis 8, Curry 9, AD 10, Embiid 11, Ja 12, Brown 13, dame 14, trae 15....


But again Jokic is the MVP we deserve even if Tatum is the MVP we get

This is unfortunately is the best basketball player on earth and it ain’t realllly that close....



Jokic is kinda pulling a MJ but y’all won’t say it cause he does crap like that and he doesn’t look the part or fit the narrative....he just plays ball better than the rest of us

[QPR]

The only two poll options right now should be Jokic and voter fatigue.

[DCasey91]

How is KD not on the voting options? He’s having a great season.

[p0peye]

Why Can't NBA Awards Voters See the Obvious MVP Front-Runner?

The common thread through all of the above is a potential MVP threepeat cut off by someone on a team with a better record. The underlying, often unsaid, factor there is that voters and fans simply don't want to add to a club that currently has just three members.

Right now, Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain and Larry Bird are the only players in league history to win three straight MVPs. There's an idea that giving a third straight to Jokić will act as a tacit endorsement of him being on the same level of those three.

The problem with the above is that it's not called "the best player on the best team" award, even if that's how it's often framed (now and through history). It's also not called the "most valuable player who's already won a championship" award. It's the [insert given season] Most Valuable Player, and under a plain-language analysis, Jokić has one of the strongest cases in the league.

If rewarding Jokić puts him in the company of Russell, Wilt and Bird, so be it. As we were reminded on Sunday, we should at least be used to the comparisons between Jokić and Chamberlain.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10059103-why-cant-nba-awards-voters-see-the-obvious-mvp-front-runner

[WarriorGM]

Might as well give the MVP to Jokic again if only to expose the silliness of the way the award has been handed out the past few years. If people were actually interested in making the award relevant they would have found a way to give it to Curry.

[ReddoverKobe]

Other-Valanciunas

[Statlanta]

Might as well give the MVP to Jokic again if only to expose the silliness of the way the award has been handed out the past few years. If people were actually interested in making the award relevant they would have found a way to give it to Curry.

Curry gets injured every season. You can't give it to someone who's consistently Street Clothes like Embiid and Anthony Davis

[WarriorGM]

Might as well give the MVP to Jokic again if only to expose the silliness of the way the award has been handed out the past few years. If people were actually interested in making the award relevant they would have found a way to give it to Curry.

Curry gets injured every season. You can't give it to someone who's consistently Street Clothes like Embiid and Anthony Davis

You can if he still helps his team enough to get an advantage in the playoffs. Last season the Warriors finished third in the standings which was helpful in giving them home court advantage against the Nuggets, Mavericks, and Celtics. The Mavericks last year won more games without Luka than the Warriors did without Steph despite Luka and Steph missing the same amount of games. Somehow Luka got more MVP votes than Steph. As I said the way they've been determining MVPs has been silly.

[Prez]

Might as well give the MVP to Jokic again if only to expose the silliness of the way the award has been handed out the past few years. If people were actually interested in making the award relevant they would have found a way to give it to Curry.

Lol what? Curry had no case for MVP over Jokic last year at all, the year before that the Warriors missed the playoffs, and the year before that were a 15 win team with Curry missing most of the season.

Are we supposed to just ignore anything that actually happens in the season and just hand the award to Curry anyways?

[WarriorGM]

Might as well give the MVP to Jokic again if only to expose the silliness of the way the award has been handed out the past few years. If people were actually interested in making the award relevant they would have found a way to give it to Curry.

Lol what? Curry had no case for MVP over Jokic last year at all, the year before that the Warriors missed the playoffs, and the year before that were a 15 win team with Curry missing most of the season.

Are we supposed to just ignore anything that actually happens in the season and just hand the award to Curry anyways?

Curry was the most impressive player in 2021. Among players seriously thought of as worthy of MVP consideration he had the best record in 2022. He presented an argument on either end of that spectrum in those respective years. Jokic's argument was pretty much the same one putting up nice numbers on a mediocre team. If the voters want to be consistently silly they can award Jokic the MVP for the same thing yet again this year.

[Prez]

Might as well give the MVP to Jokic again if only to expose the silliness of the way the award has been handed out the past few years. If people were actually interested in making the award relevant they would have found a way to give it to Curry.

Lol what? Curry had no case for MVP over Jokic last year at all, the year before that the Warriors missed the playoffs, and the year before that were a 15 win team with Curry missing most of the season.

Are we supposed to just ignore anything that actually happens in the season and just hand the award to Curry anyways?

Curry was the most impressive player in 2021. Among players seriously thought of as worthy of MVP consideration he had the best record in 2022. He presented an argument on either end of that spectrum in those respective years. Jokic's argument was pretty much the same one putting up nice numbers on a mediocre team. If the voters want to be consistently silly they can award Jokic the MVP for the same thing yet again.

Funny description given you could say the exact same thing about Curry for 2 of 3 seasons including this one, except Jokic’s numbers are better. Sorry, you don’t get to generalize and denigrate Jokic’s insane play and then not evaluate Curry by the same standards.

The other year of the 3 where Curry’s team was elite in the RS was last season, and he had the worst individual season of his prime, like statistically Jokic blows him out of the water last year. And the Warriors as a team only won 5 more games than the Nuggets despite being substantially more talented and Jokic being down his 2nd and 3rd best players essentially the entire season.

Curry didn’t deserve MVP any of the previous 3 seasons and the voters got it right all 3 years.

[WarriorGM]

Lol what? Curry had no case for MVP over Jokic last year at all, the year before that the Warriors missed the playoffs, and the year before that were a 15 win team with Curry missing most of the season.

Are we supposed to just ignore anything that actually happens in the season and just hand the award to Curry anyways?

Curry was the most impressive player in 2021. Among players seriously thought of as worthy of MVP consideration he had the best record in 2022. He presented an argument on either end of that spectrum in those respective years. Jokic's argument was pretty much the same one putting up nice numbers on a mediocre team. If the voters want to be consistently silly they can award Jokic the MVP for the same thing yet again.

Funny description given you could say the exact same thing about Curry for 2 of 3 seasons including this one, except Jokic’s numbers are better. Sorry, you don’t get to generalize and denigrate Jokic’s insane play and then not evaluate Curry by the same standards.

The other year of the 3 where Curry’s team was elite in the RS was last season, and he had the worst individual season of his prime, like statistically Jokic blows him out of the water last year. And the Warriors as a team only won 5 more games than the Nuggets despite being substantially more talented and Jokic being down his 2nd and 3rd best players essentially the entire season.

Curry didn’t deserve MVP any of the previous 3 seasons and the voters got it right all 3 years.

Jokic's impressive number advantage are mainly box score based. Assists and rebounds get counted while creating openings with gravity, screens, decoy movement, and hockey assists do not. That's arbitrary. In the plus-minus realm Jokic also puts up very nice defensive metrics. But putting much weight on that ignores there aren't any good defensive metrics. The shortcomings of these measures were pretty much shown in the first round last year where Jokic was targeted and the point of attack for the Warriors offense.

Curry was as worthy of the MVP as Jokic in the last two years and his championship last year is going to make that more and more obvious as the years go by especially if Jokic does not get a ring with the Nuggets. So yes give Jokic another one to make it even more painfully clear how mistaken the MVP voters were.

[Prez]

Curry was the most impressive player in 2021. Among players seriously thought of as worthy of MVP consideration he had the best record in 2022. He presented an argument on either end of that spectrum in those respective years. Jokic's argument was pretty much the same one putting up nice numbers on a mediocre team. If the voters want to be consistently silly they can award Jokic the MVP for the same thing yet again.

Funny description given you could say the exact same thing about Curry for 2 of 3 seasons including this one, except Jokic’s numbers are better. Sorry, you don’t get to generalize and denigrate Jokic’s insane play and then not evaluate Curry by the same standards.

The other year of the 3 where Curry’s team was elite in the RS was last season, and he had the worst individual season of his prime, like statistically Jokic blows him out of the water last year. And the Warriors as a team only won 5 more games than the Nuggets despite being substantially more talented and Jokic being down his 2nd and 3rd best players essentially the entire season.

Curry didn’t deserve MVP any of the previous 3 seasons and the voters got it right all 3 years.

Jokic's impressive number advantage are mainly box score based. Assists and rebounds get counted while creating openings with gravity, screens, decoy movement, and hockey assists do not. That's arbitrary. In the plus-minus realm Jokic also puts up very nice defensive metrics. But putting much weight on that ignores there aren't any good defensive metrics. The shortcomings of these measures were pretty much shown in the first round last year where Jokic was targeted and the point of attack for the Warriors offense.

Curry was as worthy of the MVP as Jokic in the last two years and his championship last year is going to make that more and more obvious as the years go by especially if Jokic does not get a ring with the Nuggets. So yes give Jokic another one to make it even more painfully clear how mistaken the MVP voters were.

No they aren’t lol. Jokic last season in addition to having a massive advantage in the box score numbers also had the edge in all of the following impact metrics:

On/off (including just offensive on/off)
RPM
RAPTOR
EPM
Luck adjusted RAPM

And again, Curry had the worst individual regular season of his prime last season and they only won 5 more games than the Nuggets despite having a huge talent advantage and the Nuggets’ 2nd and 3rd best players missing basically the whole season. Curry didn’t deserve MVP over Jokic last year based on what happened in the 21-22 regular season, which is literally the only thing that matters for the 21-22 MVP.

[WarriorGM]

Funny description given you could say the exact same thing about Curry for 2 of 3 seasons including this one, except Jokic’s numbers are better. Sorry, you don’t get to generalize and denigrate Jokic’s insane play and then not evaluate Curry by the same standards.

The other year of the 3 where Curry’s team was elite in the RS was last season, and he had the worst individual season of his prime, like statistically Jokic blows him out of the water last year. And the Warriors as a team only won 5 more games than the Nuggets despite being substantially more talented and Jokic being down his 2nd and 3rd best players essentially the entire season.

Curry didn’t deserve MVP any of the previous 3 seasons and the voters got it right all 3 years.

Jokic's impressive number advantage are mainly box score based. Assists and rebounds get counted while creating openings with gravity, screens, decoy movement, and hockey assists do not. That's arbitrary. In the plus-minus realm Jokic also puts up very nice defensive metrics. But putting much weight on that ignores there aren't any good defensive metrics. The shortcomings of these measures were pretty much shown in the first round last year where Jokic was targeted and the point of attack for the Warriors offense.

Curry was as worthy of the MVP as Jokic in the last two years and his championship last year is going to make that more and more obvious as the years go by especially if Jokic does not get a ring with the Nuggets. So yes give Jokic another one to make it even more painfully clear how mistaken the MVP voters were.

No they aren’t lol. Jokic last season in addition to having a massive advantage in the box score numbers also had the edge in all of the following impact metrics:

On/off (including just offensive on/off)
RPM
RAPTOR
EPM
Luck adjusted RAPM

And again, Curry had the worst individual regular season of his prime last season and they only won 5 more games than the Nuggets despite having a huge talent advantage and the Nuggets’ 2nd and 3rd best players missing basically the whole season. Curry didn’t deserve MVP over Jokic last year based on what happened in the 21-22 regular season, which is literally the only thing that matters for the 21-22 MVP.

Huge talent advantage? Are we sure? Because Curry played with an all-star and former all-stars? But none of them were all-stars without Curry. With Curry injured they had a worse record than the Jalen Brunson led Mavericks. Two years earlier they were last in the league without Curry. Turning that situation around strikes me as more impressive than what Jokic did.

[Sedale Threatt]

Funny description given you could say the exact same thing about Curry for 2 of 3 seasons including this one, except Jokic’s numbers are better. Sorry, you don’t get to generalize and denigrate Jokic’s insane play and then not evaluate Curry by the same standards.

The other year of the 3 where Curry’s team was elite in the RS was last season, and he had the worst individual season of his prime, like statistically Jokic blows him out of the water last year. And the Warriors as a team only won 5 more games than the Nuggets despite being substantially more talented and Jokic being down his 2nd and 3rd best players essentially the entire season.

Curry didn’t deserve MVP any of the previous 3 seasons and the voters got it right all 3 years.

Jokic's impressive number advantage are mainly box score based. Assists and rebounds get counted while creating openings with gravity, screens, decoy movement, and hockey assists do not. That's arbitrary. In the plus-minus realm Jokic also puts up very nice defensive metrics. But putting much weight on that ignores there aren't any good defensive metrics. The shortcomings of these measures were pretty much shown in the first round last year where Jokic was targeted and the point of attack for the Warriors offense.

Curry was as worthy of the MVP as Jokic in the last two years and his championship last year is going to make that more and more obvious as the years go by especially if Jokic does not get a ring with the Nuggets. So yes give Jokic another one to make it even more painfully clear how mistaken the MVP voters were.

No they aren’t lol. Jokic last season in addition to having a massive advantage in the box score numbers also had the edge in all of the following impact metrics:

On/off (including just offensive on/off)
RPM
RAPTOR
EPM
Luck adjusted RAPM

And again, Curry had the worst individual regular season of his prime last season and they only won 5 more games than the Nuggets despite having a huge talent advantage and the Nuggets’ 2nd and 3rd best players missing basically the whole season. Curry didn’t deserve MVP over Jokic last year based on what happened in the 21-22 regular season, which is literally the only thing that matters for the 21-22 MVP.

I'm not even going to bother looking it up, but I guarantee you that Jokic also ranks among the league leaders in screen assists and secondary assists, and provides his own form of gravity as a dominant, high-efficiency interior scorer who is also one of the best passers in the league. Like his cases for MVP, the challenges that presents are obvious.

[Prez]

Jokic's impressive number advantage are mainly box score based. Assists and rebounds get counted while creating openings with gravity, screens, decoy movement, and hockey assists do not. That's arbitrary. In the plus-minus realm Jokic also puts up very nice defensive metrics. But putting much weight on that ignores there aren't any good defensive metrics. The shortcomings of these measures were pretty much shown in the first round last year where Jokic was targeted and the point of attack for the Warriors offense.

Curry was as worthy of the MVP as Jokic in the last two years and his championship last year is going to make that more and more obvious as the years go by especially if Jokic does not get a ring with the Nuggets. So yes give Jokic another one to make it even more painfully clear how mistaken the MVP voters were.

No they aren’t lol. Jokic last season in addition to having a massive advantage in the box score numbers also had the edge in all of the following impact metrics:

On/off (including just offensive on/off)
RPM
RAPTOR
EPM
Luck adjusted RAPM

And again, Curry had the worst individual regular season of his prime last season and they only won 5 more games than the Nuggets despite having a huge talent advantage and the Nuggets’ 2nd and 3rd best players missing basically the whole season. Curry didn’t deserve MVP over Jokic last year based on what happened in the 21-22 regular season, which is literally the only thing that matters for the 21-22 MVP.

Huge talent advantage? Are we sure? Because Curry played with an all-star and former all-stars? But none of them were all-stars without Curry. With Curry inured they had a worse record than the Jalen Brunson led Mavericks. Two years earlier they were last in the league without Curry. Turning that situation around strikes me as more impressive than what Jokic did.

Yet again you are going outside of what happened in the 21-22 regular season to try to argue Curry over Jokic for MVP last year. Kinda says it all there.

And please don’t pretend that the Warriors roster that won 15 games vs. last year’s Warriors are comparable and pretend as though it was solely Curry that lead to the turnaround. It’s just disingenuous.

[Cubbies2120]

Jokic's impressive number advantage are mainly box score based. Assists and rebounds get counted while creating openings with gravity, screens, decoy movement, and hockey assists do not. That's arbitrary. In the plus-minus realm Jokic also puts up very nice defensive metrics. But putting much weight on that ignores there aren't any good defensive metrics. The shortcomings of these measures were pretty much shown in the first round last year where Jokic was targeted and the point of attack for the Warriors offense.

Curry was as worthy of the MVP as Jokic in the last two years and his championship last year is going to make that more and more obvious as the years go by especially if Jokic does not get a ring with the Nuggets. So yes give Jokic another one to make it even more painfully clear how mistaken the MVP voters were.

No they aren’t lol. Jokic last season in addition to having a massive advantage in the box score numbers also had the edge in all of the following impact metrics:

On/off (including just offensive on/off)
RPM
RAPTOR
EPM
Luck adjusted RAPM

And again, Curry had the worst individual regular season of his prime last season and they only won 5 more games than the Nuggets despite having a huge talent advantage and the Nuggets’ 2nd and 3rd best players missing basically the whole season. Curry didn’t deserve MVP over Jokic last year based on what happened in the 21-22 regular season, which is literally the only thing that matters for the 21-22 MVP.

Huge talent advantage? Are we sure? Because Curry played with an all-star and former all-stars? But none of them were all-stars without Curry. With Curry inured they had a worse record than the Jalen Brunson led Mavericks. Two years earlier they were last in the league without Curry. Turning that situation around strikes me as more impressive than what Jokic did.

Turning that situation around

Were there any other key players missing that year? Curry missed damn near a full season with a hand injury, Klay was out, Green was out a full third of the season, Wiggins played 12 games as a Warrior...either you didn't watch that season at all, or you're hoping people forgot...

We saw Curry lead them to missing the playoffs without Klay and the following year winning a ring when Klay was back...almost as if having the 2nd GOAT shooter as a threat opens up a lot...

[WarriorGM]

No they aren’t lol. Jokic last season in addition to having a massive advantage in the box score numbers also had the edge in all of the following impact metrics:

On/off (including just offensive on/off)
RPM
RAPTOR
EPM
Luck adjusted RAPM

And again, Curry had the worst individual regular season of his prime last season and they only won 5 more games than the Nuggets despite having a huge talent advantage and the Nuggets’ 2nd and 3rd best players missing basically the whole season. Curry didn’t deserve MVP over Jokic last year based on what happened in the 21-22 regular season, which is literally the only thing that matters for the 21-22 MVP.

Huge talent advantage? Are we sure? Because Curry played with an all-star and former all-stars? But none of them were all-stars without Curry. With Curry inured they had a worse record than the Jalen Brunson led Mavericks. Two years earlier they were last in the league without Curry. Turning that situation around strikes me as more impressive than what Jokic did.

Yet again you are going outside of what happened in the 21-22 regular season to try to argue Curry over Jokic for MVP last year. Kinda says it all there.

And please don’t pretend that the Warriors roster that won 15 games vs. last year’s Warriors are comparable and pretend as though it was solely Curry that lead to the turnaround. It’s just disingenuous.

What is disingenuous is saying that the interpretation of MVP awards are restricted only to the years they are awarded. That's why back-to-back and back-to-back-to-back become progressively harder to convince people of awarding. Let's say Jokic wins a third MVP. What is the interpretation that gives? Not only that he was the best player in these years, it suggests he was the best player in this era. That would be a lie. That overrides everything else.

[Prez]

Huge talent advantage? Are we sure? Because Curry played with an all-star and former all-stars? But none of them were all-stars without Curry. With Curry inured they had a worse record than the Jalen Brunson led Mavericks. Two years earlier they were last in the league without Curry. Turning that situation around strikes me as more impressive than what Jokic did.

Yet again you are going outside of what happened in the 21-22 regular season to try to argue Curry over Jokic for MVP last year. Kinda says it all there.

And please don’t pretend that the Warriors roster that won 15 games vs. last year’s Warriors are comparable and pretend as though it was solely Curry that lead to the turnaround. It’s just disingenuous.

What is disingenuous is saying that the interpretation of MVP awards are restricted only to the years they are awarded. That's why back-to-back and back-to-back-to-back become progressively harder to convince people of awarding. Let's say Jokic wins a third MVP. What is the interpretation that gives? Not only that he was the best player in these years, it suggests he was the best player in this era. That would be a lie. That overrides everything else.

I’m sorry that you’re upset Curry didn’t deserve MVP any of the past 3 seasons, but no, it really isn’t disingenuous to suggest that what happens in a given season is what actually matters when giving awards for that season. Voter fatigue being a problem doesn’t change that.

[WarriorGM]

Yet again you are going outside of what happened in the 21-22 regular season to try to argue Curry over Jokic for MVP last year. Kinda says it all there.

And please don’t pretend that the Warriors roster that won 15 games vs. last year’s Warriors are comparable and pretend as though it was solely Curry that lead to the turnaround. It’s just disingenuous.

What is disingenuous is saying that the interpretation of MVP awards are restricted only to the years they are awarded. That's why back-to-back and back-to-back-to-back become progressively harder to convince people of awarding. Let's say Jokic wins a third MVP. What is the interpretation that gives? Not only that he was the best player in these years, it suggests he was the best player in this era. That would be a lie. That overrides everything else.

I’m sorry that you’re upset Curry didn’t deserve MVP any of the past 3 seasons, but no, it really isn’t disingenuous to suggest that what happens in a given season is what actually matters when giving awards for that season. Voter fatigue being a problem doesn’t change that.

I'm sorry that your way of coming up with an MVP produces lies and misrepresentations to history. That's why one should take advantage of there being no set criteria for the award.