Cooper Flagg

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Re: Cooper Flagg 

Post#1521 » by GiggitySmalls » Wed Feb 26, 2025 6:31 am

FrodoBaggins wrote:
tsherkin wrote:
LockoutSeason wrote:Nbadraft.net has Scottie Pippen as his comparison


This is daft, of course. It isn't a good comparison at all.

I don't think you understand the concept of player comparisons - what they mean/what's being implied. I think you're a skeptic just for the sake of it. Please name an apt comparison for Cooper in your opinion. I have a feeling you won't provide one.

I don't mean to come off rude but you've completely disregarded two reasonable comparisons (Tatum, Pippen) I've seen many respected former players, analysts, and pundits make. There are no perfect one-to-one player comps as each prospect is unique but our eyes don't deceive when we see similarities, however general or granular.
Flagg has more Grant Hill vibes then Pippen. To me that's the comp. He somewhat similar to pippen but hes even more similar to hill. If he either, that's a #1 pick done well.

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Re: Cooper Flagg 

Post#1522 » by GiggitySmalls » Wed Feb 26, 2025 6:38 am

wegotthabeet wrote:
JustBuzzin wrote:
wegotthabeet wrote:
For what 40 games per year? If I landed Flagg I’d move Melo personally. I’d move Melo regardless actually while his value is still high.

I can see that possibility as well. Just build around Flagg/Miller + whatever we get for Melo.


That’s what I would do. Flagg + Miller is a pretty ideal combination at the forward spots. Melo has the talent, but he’s never healthy and not the brightest off the court. I would trade him, Bridges and pivot towards a culture reset.
That is exactly 100% what the hornets should do if they land the 1st pick and draft flagg. Flagg+Miller trade the losers Melo and miles get what you can and draft well the next year because it would probably be a high pick because they lack depth and actual pro level players. But flagg and Miller at the forward spots is a good place to start.

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Re: Cooper Flagg 

Post#1523 » by tsherkin » Wed Feb 26, 2025 8:20 am

GiggitySmalls wrote:
FrodoBaggins wrote:
tsherkin wrote:
This is daft, of course. It isn't a good comparison at all.

I don't think you understand the concept of player comparisons - what they mean/what's being implied. I think you're a skeptic just for the sake of it. Please name an apt comparison for Cooper in your opinion. I have a feeling you won't provide one.

I don't mean to come off rude but you've completely disregarded two reasonable comparisons (Tatum, Pippen) I've seen many respected former players, analysts, and pundits make. There are no perfect one-to-one player comps as each prospect is unique but our eyes don't deceive when we see similarities, however general or granular.
Flagg has more Grant Hill vibes then Pippen. To me that's the comp. He somewhat similar to pippen but hes even more similar to hill. If he either, that's a #1 pick done well.

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I dont see Hill. He isnt quick enough; Hill was a ridiculous athlete and that first step was rude. But I guess something in between them is interesting to ponder.
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Re: Cooper Flagg 

Post#1524 » by tmorgan » Wed Feb 26, 2025 8:50 am

Yeah, Hill went around the first defender and then over the interior defenders if he had to. Flagg goes through the first defender with technique and shoulders, not his first step. And then he might go through more people, such as ferocious finisher.

Some similarities are likely, though. Both good passing forwards, but not particularly creative about it. Both have unexceptional but adequate jump shots. Maybe Flagg’s gets better from deep, but Hill was never super smooth looking outside of 18 feet. Hill’s handle was something Flagg will probably never achieve, though. He could get that open middie whenever he wanted based on first step, handle, and elevation on his shot.
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Re: Cooper Flagg 

Post#1525 » by FrodoBaggins » Wed Feb 26, 2025 9:47 am

What was Hill's defense like? At the general level, you kind of need to compare Flagg to comparably-sized forwards that do everything well: score, pass, rebound, and defend. That's where the Pippen and Tatum comparisons make sense. Once you go a little deeper, you can begin to identify the areas where those comparisons are lacking.

Pippen doesn't have Flagg's strength and he doesn't truck through guys and seek contact like that. Tatum isn't the athlete that Flagg is; he doesn't cover the court and get off the ground and in the air like that.

The initial popular comparisons were upgraded versions of Kirilenko and Marion with on-ball upside. Those aren't bad, but does it make more sense to start with an actual on-ball primary creator and then work some modifications from there? I don't know; either way works.

Jim Boeheim said this the other day:

"I think he's almost — to me he's Bird-like a little bit," Boeheim said.

...

"Except, he's quicker, faster, more athletic; he doesn't shoot (the ball) as well, but his shot is coming," Boeheim continued.

"His shot is there; it may not be there this year, but it's there. He's got a good release.

"The thing that he has — and I've talked to Coach K (former Duke head coach Mike Krzyzewski) about this — he has an edge to him," Boeheim said.

"He's not backing down from nobody."


Someone mentioned Jimmy Butler in this thread; I think it was Ice Man. I've really warmed to that comparison. They do a lot of similar things, including their mentality/approach to the game. Simple but effective playmaking, bully-ball drives, abusing mismatches in the post, active cutting and offensive rebounding (including own misses), screen setting, a knack for jumping passing lanes, etc.

The biggest differences I see are that Cooper is about 2 inches taller, has 5-7 extra inches of standing reach and wingspan, way longer strides/legs, and a higher center of gravity. This extra size allows him to be more of a vertical and horizontal presence on both ends rebounding, blocking & deterring shots, rotating and providing help on defense, finishing plays (oops, rolls, and cuts), and getting out in transition.

Skill-wise, Jimmy's handle is way tighter, and his slashing game is more creative with his footwork and fakes. Coop needs to work on his one-foot finishes.

Flagg looks like he'll be the superior three-point guy hands down but I'm not yet sure about the mid-range. Butler is a pretty good SMR (short mid-range) shooter.
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Re: Cooper Flagg 

Post#1526 » by righterwriter » Wed Feb 26, 2025 10:20 am

Hard to come up with a comparison for Flagg, but perhaps a less springy, better outside shooting Tom Chambers?

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Re: Cooper Flagg 

Post#1527 » by tmorgan » Wed Feb 26, 2025 10:30 am

Chambers is one of those mostly forgotten, underrated guys, but not at Flagg’s (potential) level. Those hops, tho. Yikes. I’d forgotten about his signature reverse with his head at the rim. Did that all the time.

Addressing Frodo: Hill was a good, not great defender. Got steals with quick hands and feet. Could be easily overpowered on mismatches and switches, because he wasn’t particularly strong.

Using Hill or Pippen doesn’t work THAT well for Flagg just because of size and position. Both were 2/3’s, Flagg is very clearly going to be a 4. You can’t expect him to have their speed and quickness at his future size, and he definitely won’t. But he’ll be stronger, plenty fast and quick for his position, and aggressive as hell. Gonna be fun.
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Re: Cooper Flagg 

Post#1528 » by Tomtolbert » Wed Feb 26, 2025 11:12 am

FrodoBaggins wrote:What was Hill's defense like?


In college, Hill was an excellent and versatile defender and IIRC won DPOY at some point. His length and and anticipation made it very difficult for perimeter players. Not an elite rim protector, but could help there in a pinch.

In the NBA, he had a heavy offensive burden in his prime, so I don't think he was able to reach his potential on the defensive end. A late 30s, post injury Hill played qualilty defense on those Nash Suns teams though.

I think the Flagg/Hill comparison is decent from an impact profile - versatility, defense, intangibles/IQ, passing instincts, and just general willingness to plug in his team needs. Of course there are differences, some of which are stylistic, with Flagg being stronger, bullying on offense, better rim protector, and Hill quicker with the much better handle. I can see Flagg maxing out to about where Hill did, as someone who as a team's best player won't necessarily make them championship contendors, but could be the perfect #2.
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Re: Cooper Flagg 

Post#1529 » by Ice Man » Wed Feb 26, 2025 12:54 pm

Flagg is gonna be better than a #2, because he's gonna be better than Tatum or Butler, who are clearly #1s. Flagg is similar athletically to Tatum with a higher BBIQ, and he's more athletic than Butler with a similar BBIQ. So, he's better than each, but in a different way.

Of course, LeBron also has a sky-high BBIQ and is more athletic than Flagg ... so yeah, he is not going to be LeBron.
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Re: Cooper Flagg 

Post#1530 » by UcanUwill » Wed Feb 26, 2025 1:40 pm

righterwriter wrote:Hard to come up with a comparison for Flagg, but perhaps a less springy, better outside shooting Tom Chambers?



Flagg seems to have more advanced ball handling and pull up game, Chambers is bigger and more athletic, he could be faster human. but I imagine Flagg runs faster while dribbling. I agree that Tatum is probably best comp offensively, defensively he is like AK47 potentially.
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Re: Cooper Flagg 

Post#1531 » by GSWFan1994 » Wed Feb 26, 2025 1:55 pm

Regarding Grant Hill's defense: I'd say he was certainly above average, but not quite elite (for the NBA level). So something between good and great.

As for Flagg, I actually said that a few pages ago, but I see him as a mix of Bird and Kirilenko. Bird's IQ and all-around floor game, ballhandling, passing and shooting, and mainly feel for the game (for their respective ages), with Kirilenko's defensive awareness, positioning and effort on that side of the court.

This can't be understated enough: Flagg is still 18. He already made strides in this current season. Imagine him at 22/23, if/when he grows another couple of inches and improves his shot marginally. Plus his body maturing. That would be a surefire, perennial All-NBA player.

And I think he will reach that level.
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Re: Cooper Flagg 

Post#1532 » by Jcool0 » Wed Feb 26, 2025 2:02 pm

Everyone wanted Grant Hill to be Michael Jordan but he ended up being more Scottie Pippen.
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Re: Cooper Flagg 

Post#1533 » by tmorgan » Wed Feb 26, 2025 2:32 pm

One more random Tom Chambers comment… that dude had one of the highest legs to torso ratios I’ve ever seen. He looked like a spider, or a giraffe.
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Re: Cooper Flagg 

Post#1534 » by wegotthabeet » Wed Feb 26, 2025 2:36 pm

GiggitySmalls wrote:
wegotthabeet wrote:
JustBuzzin wrote:I can see that possibility as well. Just build around Flagg/Miller + whatever we get for Melo.


That’s what I would do. Flagg + Miller is a pretty ideal combination at the forward spots. Melo has the talent, but he’s never healthy and not the brightest off the court. I would trade him, Bridges and pivot towards a culture reset.
That is exactly 100% what the hornets should do if they land the 1st pick and draft flagg. Flagg+Miller trade the losers Melo and miles get what you can and draft well the next year because it would probably be a high pick because they lack depth and actual pro level players. But flagg and Miller at the forward spots is a good place to start.

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I would move Melo for a ton of picks regardless. The rebuild just becomes easier with Flagg, but there are many nice prospects this year. Try and land another top 3 pick next year then build from there with Miller + 2025 pick + 2026 pick + several future picks from the Melo trade.
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Re: Cooper Flagg 

Post#1535 » by Jcool0 » Wed Feb 26, 2025 2:40 pm

wegotthabeet wrote:
GiggitySmalls wrote:
wegotthabeet wrote:
That’s what I would do. Flagg + Miller is a pretty ideal combination at the forward spots. Melo has the talent, but he’s never healthy and not the brightest off the court. I would trade him, Bridges and pivot towards a culture reset.
That is exactly 100% what the hornets should do if they land the 1st pick and draft flagg. Flagg+Miller trade the losers Melo and miles get what you can and draft well the next year because it would probably be a high pick because they lack depth and actual pro level players. But flagg and Miller at the forward spots is a good place to start.

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I would move Melo for a ton of picks regardless. The rebuild just becomes easier with Flagg, but there are many nice prospects this year. Try and land another top 3 pick next year then build from there with Miller + 2025 pick + 2026 pick + several future picks from the Melo trade.


Why would anyone give up a "ton of picks" for Melo? With his contract and injury issues they might have to give up a pick to move him.
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Re: Cooper Flagg 

Post#1536 » by Ancalagon » Wed Feb 26, 2025 3:13 pm

righterwriter wrote:Hard to come up with a comparison for Flagg, but perhaps a less springy, better outside shooting Tom Chambers?



Fun comparison. I like it! People forget how good Chambers was (4x all star who peaked at 27 ppg). I think Chambers is more polished offensively and Flagg has greater defensive instincts.
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Re: Cooper Flagg 

Post#1537 » by Stanq » Wed Feb 26, 2025 5:00 pm

Jcool0 wrote:
wegotthabeet wrote:
GiggitySmalls wrote:That is exactly 100% what the hornets should do if they land the 1st pick and draft flagg. Flagg+Miller trade the losers Melo and miles get what you can and draft well the next year because it would probably be a high pick because they lack depth and actual pro level players. But flagg and Miller at the forward spots is a good place to start.

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I would move Melo for a ton of picks regardless. The rebuild just becomes easier with Flagg, but there are many nice prospects this year. Try and land another top 3 pick next year then build from there with Miller + 2025 pick + 2026 pick + several future picks from the Melo trade.


Why would anyone give up a "ton of picks" for Melo? With his contract and injury issues they might have to give up a pick to move him.


There are a lot of bad contracts that people would attach a pick to trade for LaMelo. If Charlotte lands #1, trade LaMelo, Mark Williams, Bridges (to county jail) and just start over with bad contracts, good picks and a solid forward rotation.
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Re: Cooper Flagg 

Post#1538 » by SeattleJazzFan » Wed Feb 26, 2025 5:03 pm

righterwriter wrote:Hard to come up with a comparison for Flagg, but perhaps a less springy, better outside shooting Tom Chambers?



quite a bit shorter than chambers - chambers was 6'10-6'11 range. flagg more 6'7'-6'8'.
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Re: Cooper Flagg 

Post#1539 » by SeattleJazzFan » Wed Feb 26, 2025 5:05 pm

UcanUwill wrote:
righterwriter wrote:Hard to come up with a comparison for Flagg, but perhaps a less springy, better outside shooting Tom Chambers?



Flagg seems to have more advanced ball handling and pull up game, Chambers is bigger and more athletic, he could be faster human. but I imagine Flagg runs faster while dribbling. I agree that Tatum is probably best comp offensively, defensively he is like AK47 potentially.


we are pretty much learning right now he isn't in the same stratosphere as AK in terms of stocks/defensive playmaking.
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Re: Cooper Flagg 

Post#1540 » by UcanUwill » Wed Feb 26, 2025 5:21 pm

SeattleJazzFan wrote:
UcanUwill wrote:
righterwriter wrote:Hard to come up with a comparison for Flagg, but perhaps a less springy, better outside shooting Tom Chambers?



Flagg seems to have more advanced ball handling and pull up game, Chambers is bigger and more athletic, he could be faster human. but I imagine Flagg runs faster while dribbling. I agree that Tatum is probably best comp offensively, defensively he is like AK47 potentially.


we are pretty much learning right now he isn't in the same stratosphere as AK in terms of stocks/defensive playmaking.


Are we? Oh, thats disappointing then, at least his offense outperformed expectations from what I see.

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