RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 2)

[bledredwine]

So did Jordan lol

lol no. That's literally a narrative started by Lebron fans as an excuse to compare the two. It was never a narrative in the 90s.

Even the PC forum ranked Rodman as a top 100 player. Only insane people try to rank him higher. Those of us who watched know.

The Bulls won 55 games and went to the ECSF G7 without Jordan. That is a considerably stronger supporting cast than most ATGs have had.

Interesting.

And how did they do in 95? And after Jordan returned? Slightly above .500 34-31 to a 13-4 finish with a rusty Jordan.
Then 72-10 the next season.

That's right, 85-14 with Jordan after barely being above .500. How about them apples?

Once again, one of the cliche crutches used. It was not a super team.

Meanwhile, Lebron, Wade, and Bosh... three prior year MVP candidates team up and can't even get first seed, let alone eclipsing the ceiling raising of Jordan and the Bulls 72 win season.

And the fact that we're even talking about this shows how bad and distant the comparison is


You realize that the Bulls never lost 3 in a row during the 3 peat seasons with Jordan, right? And that they did in 94 and 95? That's how dominant he was.

[sp6r=underrated]

Interesting.

And how did they do in 95? And after Jordan returned? Slightly above .500 34-31 to a 13-4 finish with a rusty Jordan.
Then 72-10 the next season.

That's right, 85-14 with Jordan. How about them apples?

Once again, one of the cliche crutches used. It was not a super team.

Meanwhile, Lebron, Wade, and Bosh... three prior year MVP candidates team up and can't even get first seed, let alone eclipsing the ceiling raising of Jordan and the Bulls 72 win season.

And the fact that we're even talking about this shows how bad and distant the comparison is


You realize that the Bulls never lost 3 in a row during the 3 peat seasons with Jordan, right? And that they did in 94 and 95? That's how dominant he was.

1995 Bulls MOV Before Jordan: 4.30
1995 Bulls MOV After Jordan: 7.31

MJ did make the team better, which no one denies. The team was also playing at a far higher level than typical supporting cast on a title team.

Based on team performance it was a super team.

[Bankai]

Personally I think the gap is bigger between Messi and Ronaldo. LeBron and Jordan is close. I actually think that Ronaldo is a little overrated, partly cause of his bigger female fanbase.

[Gregoire]

This thread takes a very contested point (Jordan over LeBron) as a given.

Which makes it my least favorite kind if thread outside of threads purely intended to troll.

Unless...

Watch he poll from GOAT thread in this board... Its not contested so much... 222-97.

[Kobe187]

[sp6r=underrated]

11>6

[UglyBugBall]

Messi was much more dominant at his peak than Cristiano. Like Jordan over LeBron at their peaks.

Not at all. Cristiano Ronaldo had one of the most dominant stretches in football history:

- Champions League three-peat: 2016, 2017, 2018
- Ballon d’Or wins: 2016, 2017
- UEFA Euro champion: 2016
- All-time Champions League top scorer
- Most goals in a single UCL season: 17 goals (2013–14)

The Champions League is the equivalent of the NBA playoffs—it eclipses domestic achievements in terms of prestige, with Europe’s best clubs battling it out.

Yes, Messi won the World Cup, which is why I personally rank him ahead overall. But in terms of peak dominance—especially in clutch, high-stakes games—Ronaldo’s peak was more impactful.

Not close. Peak Messi was another level than peak Ronaldo. Ronaldo was just poacher in the superteam, Messi impact was ball carrier+assists+goals. Its like compare Magic or Curry or LeBron, who creates gravity and make the difference with someone like Dantley or Melo.

In high-stakes games and clutch... lets compare Messi and CR7 stats in WC and Copa/Euro pllayoffs. Messi won more LaLiga titles despite being in generally worse team. And he won comparable CL titles with comparable stats in finals. Actually in most stakes game between them Messi won (CL final). In h2h matches Messi also way ahead.

You’re throwing out a lot of opinions, but let’s stick to what actually happened.

You said “Messi was much more dominant at his peak than Cristiano”—but Ronaldo’s 3-year peak (2016–2018) is one of the most decorated stretches ever:

- 3 consecutive Champions League titles
- 2 Ballon d’Ors (2016, 2017)
- Euro 2016 champion with Portugal
- Top scorer in all 3 UCL seasons

Clutch performances in quarters, semis, and finals—repeatedly.

That’s dominance at the highest level, in the biggest games, against the strongest competition in world football. No other player has matched that kind of sustained impact in such a short span.

You said Messi “carried more” and was “more complete”. Sure, I agree Messi was better at more things. But this isn’t about play style, it’s about results. Ronaldo's role was to score and win, and in that stretch, he did exactly that.

Messi had incredible moments, but he’s never had a 3-year like that - 3 UCLs, 2 Ballon d’Ors, and a Euro. That’s the definition of peak dominance. The results speak louder than opinions. Your post wasn't about career, but about peak dominance. Ronaldo delivered that. Messi was incredible for a long, long stretch, and overall I have him ahead of Ronaldo by a hair. But peak? That has to be Ronaldo.

[cgf]

Easily Messi. Like it's not even close. CR7 isn't even a clearcut #2 in most football circles unless you value longevity way more than peak or raw talent. He's not even the best Ronaldo on many people's lists.

LeBron - Jordan is at least an open discussion.

[ForeverTFC]

There is no argument for Christiano vs Messi. However you feel about LeBron, that are plausible arguments in his favor vs MJ. Easy answer.

[Kobe187]

[UglyBugBall]

That image is kind of devastating. Yeah, that difference is really an entire HOF careers worth.

[Iwasawitness]

Yes, actually. Quite a few times.

Although one could say they both played on superteams basically their entire careers. Messi had a stronger team earlier in his career, then Ronaldo moved to Madrid and eventually caught up, they were both part of trios (MSN, BBC) with star forwards, and then Ronaldo had a slightly stronger team in the late 2010s. And then there’s the international debate. Ultimately both played on elite teams at basically every juncture.

I wouldn’t even attempt to use the superteam argument in a Messi/Ronaldo debate as both played on incredibly rich and stacked teams.

So did Jordan lol

lol no. That's literally a narrative started by Lebron fans as an excuse to compare the two. It was never a narrative in the 90s.

Even the PC forum ranked Rodman as a top 100 player. Only insane people try to rank him higher. Those of us who watched know.

Um, yeah it absolutely was. I know you didn't watch during the 90s, but the Bulls were considered a powerhouse during the 90s and were absolutely considered a stacked team. I just can't with this revisionist history from people who clearly weren't watching during that time frame (and don't pretend you did because no you didn't).

[Gregoire]

Not at all. Cristiano Ronaldo had one of the most dominant stretches in football history:

- Champions League three-peat: 2016, 2017, 2018
- Ballon d’Or wins: 2016, 2017
- UEFA Euro champion: 2016
- All-time Champions League top scorer
- Most goals in a single UCL season: 17 goals (2013–14)

The Champions League is the equivalent of the NBA playoffs—it eclipses domestic achievements in terms of prestige, with Europe’s best clubs battling it out.

Yes, Messi won the World Cup, which is why I personally rank him ahead overall. But in terms of peak dominance—especially in clutch, high-stakes games—Ronaldo’s peak was more impactful.

Not close. Peak Messi was another level than peak Ronaldo. Ronaldo was just poacher in the superteam, Messi impact was ball carrier+assists+goals. Its like compare Magic or Curry or LeBron, who creates gravity and make the difference with someone like Dantley or Melo.

In high-stakes games and clutch... lets compare Messi and CR7 stats in WC and Copa/Euro pllayoffs. Messi won more LaLiga titles despite being in generally worse team. And he won comparable CL titles with comparable stats in finals. Actually in most stakes game between them Messi won (CL final). In h2h matches Messi also way ahead.

You’re throwing out a lot of opinions, but let’s stick to what actually happened.

You said “Messi was much more dominant at his peak than Cristiano”—but Ronaldo’s 3-year peak (2016–2018) is one of the most decorated stretches ever:

- 3 consecutive Champions League titles
- 2 Ballon d’Ors (2016, 2017)
- Euro 2016 champion with Portugal
- Top scorer in all 3 UCL seasons

Clutch performances in quarters, semis, and finals—repeatedly.

That’s dominance at the highest level, in the biggest games, against the strongest competition in world football. No other player has matched that kind of sustained impact in such a short span.

You said Messi “carried more” and was “more complete”. Sure, I agree Messi was better at more things. But this isn’t about play style, it’s about results. Ronaldo's role was to score and win, and in that stretch, he did exactly that.

Messi had incredible moments, but he’s never had a 3-year like that - 3 UCLs, 2 Ballon d’Ors, and a Euro. That’s the definition of peak dominance. The results speak louder than opinions. Your post wasn't about career, but about peak dominance. Ronaldo delivered that. Messi was incredible for a long, long stretch, and overall I have him ahead of Ronaldo by a hair. But peak? That has to be Ronaldo.

Decorated - sure, its comparable to Messi 2009-2011 (though Messi was better even if we talk accolades, but slightly). But its not close if we talking about impact, not TEAM accolades.In this case Russell is much better than LeBron and Jordan together, and Di Stefano is much better than Messi and CR7. Its not about playstyle at all, its about impact to the game. "Role" is important. 3andD player in basketball, even if he was as decorated as Curry or LeBron (Horry for example) isnt on their level as a player. Take sofascore of whoscored ratings of peak Messi and Ronaldo and you will see. Yes, in soccer there are analytics too.

[Gregoire]

Easily Messi. Like it's not even close. CR7 isn't even a clearcut #2 in most football circles unless you value longevity way more than peak or raw talent. He's not even the best Ronaldo on many people's lists.

LeBron - Jordan is at least an open discussion.

I dont see that its "open discussion", but yes, I think due to longevity, gap is closer.

[life_saver]

Its easily Messi over Ronaldo...Messi's prime was just way better than any other player in the world. You just had to watch the games to realize how big the gap was. I am a United fan and during late 2000's, I used to pretend Ronaldo was better just because he was playing for United but once after I started watching Barca full games, I realized Messi was in a different tier alltogether. Messi was pretty much the best player in the world from 2009-2019. He obviously is not in his prime anymore but he still has stretches where looks like the best. He seems to be saving his best for international tournaments post-Barca and that makes sense. He doesn't have much more left to achieve at club level

[Tracymcgoaty]

Anybody who picks Cristiano over Messi has no idea what they're talking about. Messi cleared Cristiano years ago. It's gotten so pathetic his stans are trying to use his goal scoring in Saudi **** Arabia as a legit case for Cristiano over Messi.

And LOL at people using the Euro championship title as a cristiano achievement when they won the **** finals with him on the bench. also look at their way to the **** final it was a joke.

Cristiano ronaldo hasn't scored or assisted in any knockout games for his country in WC
93 shots and 3 goals in 21 knockout stage matches counting WC/EC

Cristiano has been chasing ghosts for a decade now. Gone as far as to create his own damn youtube channel so he can try and convince people that he is the Goat. Saying stuff like ooooh im gonna be the first guy who's scored 1000 goals. Discrediting Pele saying there is no video evidence LOL.

I cant take anyone serious who takes Cristiano as the GOAT or comparing him with Messi.

what Messi did in 2022 for Argentina that alone blows apart anything Cristiano has ever done for Portugal.


Cristiano isn't even regarded as #2 hell is he even #3???

I know i'd take a bunch of players ahead of him.

And people want to talk about Lebron holding FO hostage..My man go watch Cristiano Ronaldo starting for his national team when he's ancient and then you'll understand the meaning of holding your entire national team hostage.

I know plenty portuguese people who find it ridiculous that this dude refuses to step down and let the younger generation develop. It's not like with Lebron who still plays at an all-nba level no this dude has been GARBAGE in every damn competition for a long while.

[Gregoire]

To summarize - I think gap between MJ and Bron is closer due to longevity advantage of LeBron. Messi and CR have similar longevity for today.

GOAT careers:
1. MJ
2. LeBron
3. Kareem
4. Wilt
5. Russell

GOAT peaks:
1. MJ
2. Wilt
3. Shaq
4. Joker
5. LeBron

GOAT careers soccer:
1. Messi
2. Pele
3. Cruyff
4. Maradona
5. Cristiano

GOAT peak soccer:
1. Pele
2. Messi
3. Maradona
4. Ronaldo 9
5. Cruyff
6. Ronaldinho
7. Platini
8. Zidane
9. Cristiano

[cgf]

Easily Messi. Like it's not even close. CR7 isn't even a clearcut #2 in most football circles unless you value longevity way more than peak or raw talent. He's not even the best Ronaldo on many people's lists.

LeBron - Jordan is at least an open discussion.

I dont see that its "open discussion", but yes, I think due to longevity, gap is closer.

Longevity, playmaking, going longer before getting real help, having to face a dynasty in Golden State, etc. I'm not saying I have LeBron atop my list, but he has things pointing in his favor that can make it a question of what you value most. There's no perspective that puts Rapey-Ronaldo over little Lio.

[Nuntius]

Messi over Cristiano Ronaldo. Statistically, Messi is incredibly and ridiculously dominant. It really isn't close.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Lebron is better than Jordan by a little.

Messi is better than C. Ronaldo by a lot.

/thread

Bad strawman. LeBron isn't better than jordan at all much less little bit.

You don't know what a strawman is so it would be a good idea to stop using that term until you do.