NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2)

Moderators: zimpy27, infinite11285, Clav, Domejandro, ken6199, bisme37, Dirk, KingDavid, cupcakesnake, bwgood77

Who is your current NBA MVP? (listed alphabetically)

Giannis Antetokounmpo
51
13%
Luka Doncic
70
18%
Kevin Durant
19
5%
Joel Embiid
25
6%
Nikola Jokic
167
42%
Donovan Mitchell
2
1%
Ja Morant
2
1%
Jayson Tatum
48
12%
Zion Williamson
5
1%
Other (Booker, Curry, Davis, SGA, etc.)
8
2%
 
Total votes: 397

stillgotgame
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1561 » by stillgotgame » Mon Jan 23, 2023 1:34 am

Bob8 wrote:
bisme37 wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
Fine if you want to go all out on the "historical precedent". No player has won missing more than 11 games. So if we go this route, that cancels Jokic out and it cancels Embiid out. Which leaves Tatum and Im all cool with that outcome. No Duke player has ever been a MVP and Im all for it happening this year.


Nope. I guess you missed it but Tatum is now out of the MVP race after the Celtics beat the 12th place Raptors last night by 2 points without him.


If we forget team results, he's stratosphere away from Jokic.

https://stathead.com/tiny/Co1xr


Wow, they're not close. Tatum shoots more often, that's his only real statistical advantage. Other than that his stats look like an average NBA player.

If you look at the Celtics team stats his shooting percentages are below average on his own team as well.
https://www.espn.com/nba/team/stats/_/name/bos/boston-celtics
Bucks in 6
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1562 » by eyeatoma » Mon Jan 23, 2023 1:43 am

ty 4191 wrote:No Jokic again tonight.

Games missed this season:
Tatum: 3
Jokic: 6
Giannis: 11
Embiid: 12
Curry: 15
Durant: 6
Mitchell: 8

Draftkings NBA MVP Odds as of right now:

Jokic: -105 (20/21)
Doncic: +430
Tatum: +700
Embiid: +800
Giannis: +1100
Morant: +3000
Curry: +4000
Mitchell: +6000


Looking at how many everyone has missed, I think games missed will become less of a priority especially if Nuggets/Celtics lose the #1 spot.

Also, Duran'ts missed games seems incorrect.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1563 » by AleksandarN » Mon Jan 23, 2023 2:10 am

eyeatoma wrote:
ty 4191 wrote:No Jokic again tonight.

Games missed this season:
Tatum: 3
Jokic: 6
Giannis: 11
Embiid: 12
Curry: 15
Durant: 6
Mitchell: 8

Draftkings NBA MVP Odds as of right now:

Jokic: -105 (20/21)
Doncic: +430
Tatum: +700
Embiid: +800
Giannis: +1100
Morant: +3000
Curry: +4000
Mitchell: +6000


Looking at how many everyone has missed, I think games missed will become less of a priority especially if Nuggets/Celtics lose the #1 spot.

Also, Duran'ts missed games seems incorrect.


Image
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1564 » by Cavsfansince84 » Mon Jan 23, 2023 4:32 am

Jokic should absolutely have it on lock right now. Any voter who doesn't vote for him strictly because he won the last two should never get to vote again. Obviously things can change over the last 35 games but within reason he should get his third straight.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1565 » by Ballerhogger » Mon Jan 23, 2023 5:05 am

Read on Twitter
?s=20&t=bA73Md0mv5VvGs59JnTw6g Someone going give Lebron a vote ?
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1566 » by Wolfgang630 » Mon Jan 23, 2023 5:10 am

Ballerhogger wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=20&t=bA73Md0mv5VvGs59JnTw6g Someone going give Lebron a vote ?


12th seed and under .500 record…no
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1567 » by Infinite Llamas » Mon Jan 23, 2023 5:58 am

Ballerhogger wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=20&t=bA73Md0mv5VvGs59JnTw6g Someone going give Lebron a vote ?


Wrong thread? :wink:
Gerald Green Loves LLamas!
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1568 » by CobraCommander » Mon Jan 23, 2023 7:29 am

If Lebron gets the lakers in top 4 then we can discuss MVP- until then -
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1569 » by CobraCommander » Mon Jan 23, 2023 7:31 am

DCasey91 wrote:
Sgt Major wrote:Image



Dirk + Bird in a center’s body what a time to be alive lol.

Damn Steph !

I know Jokic is the mvp but damn steph is still special-

This year the person is second place should feel great- cause Jokic is having a prime Lebron, MJ, Wilt, type year
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1570 » by Dutchball97 » Mon Jan 23, 2023 8:51 am

eyeatoma wrote:
ty 4191 wrote:No Jokic again tonight.

Games missed this season:
Tatum: 3
Jokic: 6
Giannis: 11
Embiid: 12
Curry: 15
Durant: 6
Mitchell: 8

Draftkings NBA MVP Odds as of right now:

Jokic: -105 (20/21)
Doncic: +430
Tatum: +700
Embiid: +800
Giannis: +1100
Morant: +3000
Curry: +4000
Mitchell: +6000


Looking at how many everyone has missed, I think games missed will become less of a priority especially if Nuggets/Celtics lose the #1 spot.

Also, Duran'ts missed games seems incorrect.


Durant's missed games look like they're incorrect because of how the media and most people here reacted to his injury. He's missed 5 straight games now but before that had only missed 1 game. When he comes back in like 2 weeks he won't have significantly more missed games, if at all, than the likes of Curry, Giannis and Embiid but people were immediate with dismissing Durant's MVP case while still keeping the others with similar or more missed games in the convo.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1571 » by ty 4191 » Mon Jan 23, 2023 1:14 pm

Dutchball97 wrote:
eyeatoma wrote:
ty 4191 wrote:No Jokic again tonight.

Games missed this season:
Tatum: 3
Jokic: 6
Giannis: 11
Embiid: 12
Curry: 15
Durant: 6
Mitchell: 8

Draftkings NBA MVP Odds as of right now:

Jokic: -105 (20/21)
Doncic: +430
Tatum: +700
Embiid: +800
Giannis: +1100
Morant: +3000
Curry: +4000
Mitchell: +6000


Looking at how many everyone has missed, I think games missed will become less of a priority especially if Nuggets/Celtics lose the #1 spot.

Also, Duran'ts missed games seems incorrect.


Durant's missed games look like they're incorrect because of how the media and most people here reacted to his injury. He's missed 5 straight games now but before that had only missed 1 game. When he comes back in like 2 weeks he won't have significantly more missed games, if at all, than the likes of Curry, Giannis and Embiid but people were immediate with dismissing Durant's MVP case while still keeping the others with similar or more missed games in the convo.


Dutch,
How many players do you think will be effectively disqualified due to the number of games they missed? Is 15 too many?

Embiid, Giannis, Curry? What about their cases if they only miss a few more games?

(I know Walton won playing 58/82 but that was before the media voted; looks like Iverson missed the most games (11) of any MVP candidate since 1979-1980).
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1572 » by ty 4191 » Mon Jan 23, 2023 2:03 pm

Wins/Win Loss % While Playing This Season:

Jokic: 30-11 (.732)
Embiid: 22-12 (.647%)
Giannis: 23-12 (.657%)
Tatum: 33-11 (.750)
Doncic: 25-18 (.581)
Curry: 16-16 (.500)
Durant: 26-13 (.667)
Morant: 27-12 (.692)
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1573 » by Mickey8 » Mon Jan 23, 2023 2:06 pm

CobraCommander wrote:
DCasey91 wrote:
Sgt Major wrote:Image



Dirk + Bird in a center’s body what a time to be alive lol.

Damn Steph !

I know Jokic is the mvp but damn steph is still special-

This year the person is second place should feel great- cause Jokic is having a prime Lebron, MJ, Wilt, type year

Russel Wesbrook is the all time horrible shooter.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1574 » by ty 4191 » Mon Jan 23, 2023 2:31 pm

Jokic leads in:

Player Impact Estimate (NBA.com)
Estimated Plus Minus: (DunksandThrees.com)
FIC: (Real GM.com)
WPA: (Inpredictable.com)
BPM: (BBRef)
RAPTOR/RAPTOR WAR: (Fivethirtyeight.com)
PER: (BBRef)
OWS: (BBRef)
WS: (BBRef)
OBPM: (BBRef)
DBPM: (BBRef)
BPM: (BBRef)
VORP: (BBRef)
On/Off: (BBRef) 2nd to KCP (+20.9)

He has the highest True Shooting percentage of anyone in NBA History with 15+ FGA/G this season.

Highest eFG% of anyone in NBA History (with 15+ FGA/G) this season.

Most assists per game by a Center in NBA History this season.

Inflation Adjusted Per 75 Stats (Backpicks)

-25.1 PTS (95th percentile)
-+12.2 rTS% (98th percentile)
-+10.0 Passer Rating (100th percentile)
-+24.2 Net On/Off (99th percentile)
-+10.0 Augmented Plus Minus (100th percentile)
-+8.4 Regularized Plus Minus (99th percentile)

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2023/1/16/23556482/nba-awards-nikola-jokic-mvp

Related to those figures, what about value? There’s a 20.9-point difference per 100 possessions when you look at how good the Nuggets are with Jokic on the floor versus how sorry they’ve been with him off it. That’s the second-largest gap in the league. (Two seasons ago, when he won his first MVP, the net difference was around a third of what it is now.)

The Nuggets register a plus-11.3 net rating with Jokic. The closest All-Stars to Jokic’s number are Joel Embiid and Jayson Tatum, at 8.8 and 9.1, respectively. Denver also has the best offense in the NBA, which is nice. Dig deeper. Their attack is the most efficient in league history with Jokic (123.4 points per 100 possessions) and significantly worse than the intentionally terrible Rockets (more on them later) when he sits.

All condensed into plain English: Cleaning the Glass has a stat called “expected wins,” which estimates how many wins every player’s team would log considering their point differential. The Nuggets are a 67-win team with Jokic on the court and an 18-win team without him. Nobody else touches that 49-win gap. If all this keeps up, Jokic deserves to join Bill Russell, Larry Bird, and Wilt Chamberlain as the only players in NBA history to win its most prestigious individual award three straight times.

When he’s on the court, Denver has a top-10 defense. He functions in a scheme that frequently asks him to stay high with the ball handler in a pick-and-roll and then recover back to his original assignment after, ideally, Denver’s low man rotates over to provide cover. It’s a lot of work and forces constant rotation and movement, sometimes leaving Denver vulnerable from the corners. But when executed properly by everyone involved, with hard closeouts and coordinated x-outs on the weakside, it works.

According to Second Spectrum, the Nuggets allow 0.85 points per chance when Jokic is up to touch against a pick-and-roll. That’s 16th best out of 72 players who’ve defended at least 50 actions in that coverage. The Nuggets also allow 0.97 points per direct play when Jokic drops. That number is better than Brook Lopez and Myles Turner. This isn’t to suggest Jokic is better or close to as effective as those two defensively, and so much goes into those numbers that can’t be quantified (such as the many times Jokic has kicked a pocket pass out of bounds). But the point here is that he’s not a sieve. He’s not even a liability. Narratives die hard, though, especially false ones.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1575 » by Dutchball97 » Mon Jan 23, 2023 2:34 pm

ty 4191 wrote:
Dutchball97 wrote:
eyeatoma wrote:
Looking at how many everyone has missed, I think games missed will become less of a priority especially if Nuggets/Celtics lose the #1 spot.

Also, Duran'ts missed games seems incorrect.


Durant's missed games look like they're incorrect because of how the media and most people here reacted to his injury. He's missed 5 straight games now but before that had only missed 1 game. When he comes back in like 2 weeks he won't have significantly more missed games, if at all, than the likes of Curry, Giannis and Embiid but people were immediate with dismissing Durant's MVP case while still keeping the others with similar or more missed games in the convo.


Dutch,
How many players do you think will be effectively disqualified due to the number of games they missed? Is 15 too many?

Embiid, Giannis, Curry? What about their cases if they only miss a few more games?

(I know Walton won playing 58/82 but that was before the media voted; looks like Iverson missed the most games (11) of any MVP candidate since 1979-1980).


Walton is interesting because I don't think he'd have won it with 58 games played in many other years. Kareem missed nearly as many games as Walton in 78 but the Blazers still ended up with the best record in the league, while the Lakers just inched into the back end of the play-off bracket. Now we can talk about supporting casts, which was heavily in favor of Walton, but most voters just saw 2 greats missing 20-25 games each and one of them still getting much better results. The 76ers were the next best team but Erving had an off year (and missed some time himself), Moses was still a year away from being a MVP candidate and then the other "contenders" were Gervin and David Thompson who played for the weaker 2 division winners and didn't particularly light the world on fire. Both Gervin and Thompson would get the most MVP consideration of their careers that season.

As to how many games someone can miss this year, I think it's all relative to what their competition does. Jokic missing a couple games now is probably the biggest lifeline for the MVP case of many guys that have already missed time. The problem, however, is that you have to basically be the best per minute player in the league to win MVP while also having your team be very dominant. Giannis won his 2 MVPs over Harden in 2019 and Harden and LeBron in 2020 because of the Bucks being the best team in the league and Giannis being the best per minute despite playing less games and less minutes per game.

In the context of this season it's different though as Jokic is the best per minute player in the league and has the best record in the west and 2nd best record in the league overall. I think Jokic will already be the "low minutes and less games played" contender here with the only real competition being Tatum and Luka. Both Luka and Tatum have played around 250-300 minutes more than Jokic, which is a bigger gap than Jokic has to guys like Embiid, Curry and Giannis at the moment. Tatum also plays for the one team with a better record than the Nuggets, while Luka has a similar "carrying scrubs to the play-offs argument" as Jokic last year.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1576 » by ty 4191 » Mon Jan 23, 2023 2:44 pm

Mickey8 wrote:Russel Wesbrook is the all time horrible shooter.


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cZKyz688S74yyo8Dy4T5vuAkIXZggKJK6QdiUnQqSx8/edit#gid=174375588

Arguably the worst shooter in NBA history, relative to one's era. Note: He's now at -1054 TS Added, career.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1577 » by CobraCommander » Mon Jan 23, 2023 4:49 pm

ty 4191 wrote:Wins/Win Loss % While Playing This Season:

Jokic: 30-11 (.732)
Embiid: 22-12 (.647%)
Giannis: 23-12 (.657%)
Tatum: 33-11 (.750)
Doncic: 25-18 (.581)
Curry: 16-16 (.500)
Durant: 26-13 (.667)
Morant: 27-12 (.692)

So jokic ?
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1578 » by CobraCommander » Mon Jan 23, 2023 4:51 pm

What stops Jokic from getting to 4 In a row?
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1579 » by ty 4191 » Mon Jan 23, 2023 4:53 pm

CobraCommander wrote:So jokic ?


It's not even close, IMHO. Jokic by a mile.

Your thoughts?

Let's hope this hamstring tightness isn't a symptom of something worse.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1580 » by jokeboy86 » Mon Jan 23, 2023 5:09 pm

CobraCommander wrote:What stops Jokic from getting to 4 In a row?


The media will not give him 4 in a row even if he wins a ring and is Finals MVP this year. If Jokic wins a ring this year I doubt that you'll see anybody in the media say he's unquestionably the best player in the game. The entire concept of Jokic actually being the best player in the league over other stars who get considerably more attention(and ratings/clicks) is something that the media will never ever say because it's bad for business in the same way they feel it was during Duncan's run. Hell, I still have yet to hear any media member go on record and say Jokic's career as a Nugget has passed Melo's(and his Knicks career).

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