NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 3)

[CharityStripe34]

Stat padding at it's finest.

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Greatest ever since Ricky Davis. He should get +1 bonus rebound for that.

[_NoMas]

The mental gymnastics are exhausting with you bro. Embiid has had far better and healthier teammates his whole career and it ain’t even close.

Yeah I am confused, so Embid should be excused for being an inferior player and therefore should win MVP

You guys don't seem to get it. There are levels. You win 3 MVPS you're held to a higher standard, as opposed to a 3 time runner up. Plenty of people have sucked in the playoffs and won 1 MVP. Playoffs and winning your first MVP, has no relevance, zero, zilch, nada. But when you're in the running for the 3rd, then you're basically in the running for top 15 all time in NBA history. For players who have won 3 in a row? All have won a championship.

Not that difficult guys. You accomplish more, you're expected to do more. That's the way the world works.

Not often I say this, but I completely agree and it’s bizzare that people are pushing back on this. Fact is Jokic is soon to be 3X MVP, seriously rarefied air, so the stakes are simply higher for him this post season.

I absolutely absolve him of any blame the last two play offs… most of his teammates of the last two play offs are now either bench players or not even in the league. Things are different this year and at a minimum he should be expected to make the WCFs (I think they’re going to the finals tbh)…

[greekbuck34]

He tanked his TS% though.

[Papi_swav]

Wrong thread

[AussieCeltic]

Celtics lost to both NY teams on their home court

That’s an astute observation for the MVP thread. Really swayed the votes

[eyeatoma]

Yeah I am confused, so Embid should be excused for being an inferior player and therefore should win MVP

You guys don't seem to get it. There are levels. You win 3 MVPS you're held to a higher standard, as opposed to a 3 time runner up. Plenty of people have sucked in the playoffs and won 1 MVP. Playoffs and winning your first MVP, has no relevance, zero, zilch, nada. But when you're in the running for the 3rd, then you're basically in the running for top 15 all time in NBA history. For players who have won 3 in a row? All have won a championship.

Not that difficult guys. You accomplish more, you're expected to do more. That's the way the world works.

Not often I say this, but I completely agree and it’s bizzare that people are pushing back on this. Fact is Jokic is soon to be 3X MVP, seriously rarefied air, so the stakes are simply higher for him this post season.

I absolutely absolve him of any blame the last two play offs… most of his teammates of the last two play offs are now either bench players or not even in the league. Things are different this year and at a minimum he should be expected to make the WCFs (I think they’re going to the finals tbh)…

At this point it's anything to shield Jokic and deduct points from Embiid.

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[dygaction]

You guys don't seem to get it. There are levels. You win 3 MVPS you're held to a higher standard, as opposed to a 3 time runner up. Plenty of people have sucked in the playoffs and won 1 MVP. Playoffs and winning your first MVP, has no relevance, zero, zilch, nada. But when you're in the running for the 3rd, then you're basically in the running for top 15 all time in NBA history. For players who have won 3 in a row? All have won a championship.

Not that difficult guys. You accomplish more, you're expected to do more. That's the way the world works.

Not often I say this, but I completely agree and it’s bizzare that people are pushing back on this. Fact is Jokic is soon to be 3X MVP, seriously rarefied air, so the stakes are simply higher for him this post season.

I absolutely absolve him of any blame the last two play offs… most of his teammates of the last two play offs are now either bench players or not even in the league. Things are different this year and at a minimum he should be expected to make the WCFs (I think they’re going to the finals tbh)…

At this point it's anything to shield Jokic and deduct points from Embiid.

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At this point Embiid really does not have a strong argument anymore. it is what points you want to add to Embiid to have a case.
32w-18l with him, 9w-4l without
42w-14l with Jokic, 3w-5l without
Jokic won 10 more games and played 6 more games.

[Sharkboy242]

Horford had a freak 6 3 pointer game. Those are pretty rare. Embiid absolutely destroyed Horford in that game. Also, Embiid wasn't on Horford for all those 3s either.

“You can’t expect a 7 footer to chase on 3 point line and man a drop coverage defense” - I’m glad you agree, so let’s talk about Nuggets vs Warriors last year that Embiid fans loved to talk about - are you saying it’s not a fair expectation for a 7 footer to have to chase Curry, Poole and Klay? I’m glad you’re coming around

If you're a 3 time MVP, and are have "statistically the greatest 3 seasons of all time" you need to be making the finals and winning chips. If you're team is good enough to win games in the regular season, they need to be just as good in the playoffs. No excuses.

Or else what? People on forums are going to talk badly about you? Or the media talking heads are going to call you a privileged stat padder?

Oh wait those things are already happening. So what’s going to happen now, what treachery awaits our dear hero Jokic?

It puts a tear in my eye just thinking about the mean things eyetoma and others are going to say if Jokic wins his 3rd MVP and doesnt win a championship. Maybe if they cry loudly enough the NBA can have award rescinded

[Papi_swav]

Celtics lost to both NY teams on their home court

That’s an astute observation for the MVP thread. Really swayed the votes

lmao thought this was the game thread smh delete

[eyeatoma]

“You can’t expect a 7 footer to chase on 3 point line and man a drop coverage defense” - I’m glad you agree, so let’s talk about Nuggets vs Warriors last year that Embiid fans loved to talk about - are you saying it’s not a fair expectation for a 7 footer to have to chase Curry, Poole and Klay? I’m glad you’re coming around

If you're a 3 time MVP, and are have "statistically the greatest 3 seasons of all time" you need to be making the finals and winning chips. If you're team is good enough to win games in the regular season, they need to be just as good in the playoffs. No excuses.

Or else what? People on forums are going to talk badly about you? Or the media talking heads are going to call you a privileged stat padder?

Oh wait those things are already happening. So what’s going to happen now, what treachery awaits our dear hero Jokic?

It puts a tear in my eye just thinking about the mean things eyetoma and others are going to say if Jokic wins his 3rd MVP and doesnt win a championship. Maybe if they cry loudly enough the NBA can have award rescinded

Asterisk MVPs that's all. Just like the asterisk chip the Lakers won in the bubble, and the asterisk chip the Raptors won with Kawhi, when KD and Klay went down. History will remember that's all.

[dygaction]

If you're a 3 time MVP, and are have "statistically the greatest 3 seasons of all time" you need to be making the finals and winning chips. If you're team is good enough to win games in the regular season, they need to be just as good in the playoffs. No excuses.

Or else what? People on forums are going to talk badly about you? Or the media talking heads are going to call you a privileged stat padder?

Oh wait those things are already happening. So what’s going to happen now, what treachery awaits our dear hero Jokic?

It puts a tear in my eye just thinking about the mean things eyetoma and others are going to say if Jokic wins his 3rd MVP and doesnt win a championship. Maybe if they cry loudly enough the NBA can have award rescinded

Asterisk MVPs that's all. Just like the asterisk chip the Lakers won in the bubble, and the asterisk chip the Raptors won with Kawhi, when KD and Klay went down. History will remember that's all.

Cannot believe this... Let's get Embiid the Realgm MVP then

[Wolfgang630]

If you're a 3 time MVP, and are have "statistically the greatest 3 seasons of all time" you need to be making the finals and winning chips. If you're team is good enough to win games in the regular season, they need to be just as good in the playoffs. No excuses.

Or else what? People on forums are going to talk badly about you? Or the media talking heads are going to call you a privileged stat padder?

Oh wait those things are already happening. So what’s going to happen now, what treachery awaits our dear hero Jokic?

It puts a tear in my eye just thinking about the mean things eyetoma and others are going to say if Jokic wins his 3rd MVP and doesnt win a championship. Maybe if they cry loudly enough the NBA can have award rescinded

Asterisk MVPs that's all. Just like the asterisk chip the Lakers won in the bubble, and the asterisk chip the Raptors won with Kawhi, when KD and Klay went down. History will remember that's all.

Oh lord lol

[AussieCeltic]

If you're a 3 time MVP, and are have "statistically the greatest 3 seasons of all time" you need to be making the finals and winning chips. If you're team is good enough to win games in the regular season, they need to be just as good in the playoffs. No excuses.

Or else what? People on forums are going to talk badly about you? Or the media talking heads are going to call you a privileged stat padder?

Oh wait those things are already happening. So what’s going to happen now, what treachery awaits our dear hero Jokic?

It puts a tear in my eye just thinking about the mean things eyetoma and others are going to say if Jokic wins his 3rd MVP and doesnt win a championship. Maybe if they cry loudly enough the NBA can have award rescinded

Asterisk MVPs that's all. Just like the asterisk chip the Lakers won in the bubble, and the asterisk chip the Raptors won with Kawhi, when KD and Klay went down. History will remember that's all.

Lebron won his first championship the same year he won his third MVP. Did you asterisk those original MVP’s??

Moses Malone was the same.

Plenty of guys with MVPs and no championship. Nash, Barkley, Rose, Westbrook, Harden. Do we asterisks all them as well?

[eyeatoma]

Or else what? People on forums are going to talk badly about you? Or the media talking heads are going to call you a privileged stat padder?

Oh wait those things are already happening. So what’s going to happen now, what treachery awaits our dear hero Jokic?

It puts a tear in my eye just thinking about the mean things eyetoma and others are going to say if Jokic wins his 3rd MVP and doesnt win a championship. Maybe if they cry loudly enough the NBA can have award rescinded

Asterisk MVPs that's all. Just like the asterisk chip the Lakers won in the bubble, and the asterisk chip the Raptors won with Kawhi, when KD and Klay went down. History will remember that's all.

Lebron won his first championship the same year he won his third MVP. Did you asterisk those original MVP’s??

Moses Malone was the same.

Plenty of guys with MVPs and no championship. Nash, Barkley, Rose, Westbrook, Harden. Do we asterisks all them as well?

They didn't win 3 in a row. You keep ignoring this. In a row is the issue. Back to back to back. That is unprecedented. Also LeBron was the heir apparent. Basically the incoming goat. He had his team in the finals. There was also no other player really playing close to him.

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[antonac]

They didn't win 3 in a row. You keep ignoring this. In a row is the issue. Back to back to back. That is unprecedented. Also LeBron was the heir apparent. Basically the incoming goat. He had his team in the finals. There was also no other player really playing close to him.

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It's crazy how your main argument revolves around flat out excluding him from the voting because of things beyond his control this season (he can't retroactively go back in time and win a chip to validate his MVP push this year, which sounds like the only thing you'd accept). Because by extension that means you essentially agree he is actually the best player this year and what he's doing is "unprecedented", just it should default to Giannis or Embiid.

[B-easy]

@eyeatoma You know what was also unprecedented? There has never been a 7 foot center who is a goat level passer who lives in Denver who has won an MVP. Therefore, it shouldn't happen.

This is what you are doing, you are taking such a high resolution view on this. Think at a higher level of abstraction and find a model that best describes the past MVP seasons. Good models are simple with few rules but explain most of the data.

My model is MVP = max{Record (not seed) + Stats (counting +impact) - Teammates (better is harder to win MVP)}

See how there is no reference to previous MVPs or playoff success? Simple and explains almost all previous MVPs.

[nikster]

If you're a 3 time MVP, and are have "statistically the greatest 3 seasons of all time" you need to be making the finals and winning chips. If you're team is good enough to win games in the regular season, they need to be just as good in the playoffs. No excuses.

Or else what? People on forums are going to talk badly about you? Or the media talking heads are going to call you a privileged stat padder?

Oh wait those things are already happening. So what’s going to happen now, what treachery awaits our dear hero Jokic?

It puts a tear in my eye just thinking about the mean things eyetoma and others are going to say if Jokic wins his 3rd MVP and doesnt win a championship. Maybe if they cry loudly enough the NBA can have award rescinded

Asterisk MVPs that's all. Just like the asterisk chip the Lakers won in the bubble, and the asterisk chip the Raptors won with Kawhi, when KD and Klay went down. History will remember that's all.

So nothing of significance. History will remember that he outplayed embiid in 3 straight seasons

[eyeatoma]

Or else what? People on forums are going to talk badly about you? Or the media talking heads are going to call you a privileged stat padder?

Oh wait those things are already happening. So what’s going to happen now, what treachery awaits our dear hero Jokic?

It puts a tear in my eye just thinking about the mean things eyetoma and others are going to say if Jokic wins his 3rd MVP and doesnt win a championship. Maybe if they cry loudly enough the NBA can have award rescinded

Asterisk MVPs that's all. Just like the asterisk chip the Lakers won in the bubble, and the asterisk chip the Raptors won with Kawhi, when KD and Klay went down. History will remember that's all.

So nothing of significance. History will remember that he outplayed embiid in 3 straight seasons

No, history will remember that they tried to anoint him as the next GOAT, with middling playoff success. History will remember that although advanced stats have their place in the NBA its not the end all and be all of determining who the best is. Jokic will be a cautionary tale for future voters, on how not to vote for an MVP.

[_NoMas]

Somehow this MVP convo is simultaneously the most entertaining and tedious thread across the whole forum

[Sharkboy242]

If you're a 3 time MVP, and are have "statistically the greatest 3 seasons of all time" you need to be making the finals and winning chips. If you're team is good enough to win games in the regular season, they need to be just as good in the playoffs. No excuses.

Or else what? People on forums are going to talk badly about you? Or the media talking heads are going to call you a privileged stat padder?

Oh wait those things are already happening. So what’s going to happen now, what treachery awaits our dear hero Jokic?

It puts a tear in my eye just thinking about the mean things eyetoma and others are going to say if Jokic wins his 3rd MVP and doesnt win a championship. Maybe if they cry loudly enough the NBA can have award rescinded

Asterisk MVPs that's all. Just like the asterisk chip the Lakers won in the bubble, and the asterisk chip the Raptors won with Kawhi, when KD and Klay went down. History will remember that's all.

I find it hilarious that a Sixer fan of all people is using these 3 examples as asterisks

1) The Sixers were swept in the bubble so naturally you're going to be inclined to call the bubble a farce
2) Kawhi hit an epic game winning shot against... you guessed it, the Sixers. Naturally his championship run means farce too
3) Jokic winning MVPs with a Sixer coming in 2nd for potentially 3 straight years....

Here's some light reading for you
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motivated_reasoning