RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 2)

[Iwasawitness]

Interesting.

And how did they do in 95? And after Jordan returned? Slightly above .500 34-31 to a 13-4 finish with a rusty Jordan.
Then 72-10 the next season.

That's right, 85-14 with Jordan after barely being above .500. How about them apples?

Once again, one of the cliche crutches used. It was not a super team.

Meanwhile, Lebron, Wade, and Bosh... three prior year MVP candidates team up and can't even get first seed, let alone eclipsing the ceiling raising of Jordan and the Bulls 72 win season.

And the fact that we're even talking about this shows how bad and distant the comparison is


You realize that the Bulls never lost 3 in a row during the 3 peat seasons with Jordan, right? And that they did in 94 and 95? That's how dominant he was.

Okay, now let's actually apply context to what you're saying here, because if there's one thing I've learned, it's that ignoring it is the only thing you're good at.

1. Yes, they were 34-31. A big reason for that is that they lost their all star PF in Horace Grant for nothing. That's going to make a pretty big difference.

2. That 34-31 record is still far better than what Miami and Cleveland's records were when they played without LeBron, and you can't even make the sample size argument. It's a proven fact that Jordan's Bulls had a winning record without him playing. Miami and Cleveland on the other hand didn't.

3. Yes, the Bulls went 72-10 the following season. A big reason however is that they acquired Dennis Rodman for peanuts. Jordan himself before that season stated that they needed a Horace Grant. There's no way they go to the finals, let alone win 72 games, without acquiring Dennis Rodman that season.

Oh, and by the way, let's just get this little nugget out of the way too...

Meanwhile, Lebron, Wade, and Bosh... three prior year MVP candidates team up and can't even get first seed, let alone eclipsing the ceiling raising of Jordan and the Bulls 72 win season.

A sentence that is so devoid of any legitimate thought that if I hadn't known you, I would swear that you were just trolling. Chris Bosh? Not a former MVP candidate, I don't know why you keep saying that. But more importantly, the team that DID get the one seed lost to this very Heat team in five games. The only reason the Heat didn't even get the one seed that season is because they spent the first twenty games trying to learn how to play with each other. Adjusted for that time period, they had the best record in the East compared to every other team, including the Bulls.

I don't understand why you do this. Is it your goal on this site to make Jordan fans look bad? Because you're doing a tremendous job of that.

[Kobe187]

That image is kind of devastating. Yeah, that difference is really an entire HOF careers worth.

Yeah the gap is absolutely ridiculous, kind of makes you wonder what qualifies James to be top 3 all time in all seriousness, lemanufactured media driven legacy, a better question people should be asking is who’s #2 All Time in the NBA after Michael Jordan, likely KAJ.

Messi>Ronaldo

Jordan>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>james

[Tracymcgoaty]

That image is kind of devastating. Yeah, that difference is really an entire HOF careers worth.

Yeah the gap is absolutely ridiculous, kind of makes you wonder what qualifies James to be top 3 all time in all seriousness, lemanufactured media driven legacy, a better question people should be asking is who’s #2 All Time in the NBA after Michael Jordan, likely KAJ.

Messi>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Ronaldo

Jordan>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>james

Fixed it for you.

[Gregoire]

Easily Messi. Like it's not even close. CR7 isn't even a clearcut #2 in most football circles unless you value longevity way more than peak or raw talent. He's not even the best Ronaldo on many people's lists.

LeBron - Jordan is at least an open discussion.

I dont see that its "open discussion", but yes, I think due to longevity, gap is closer.

Longevity, playmaking, going longer before getting real help, having to face a dynasty in Golden State, etc. I'm not saying I have LeBron atop my list, but he has things pointing in his favor that can make it a question of what you value most. There's no perspective that puts Rapey-Ronaldo over little Lio.

If we take about such a minor arguments, Cristiano could also be favored by: more CL titles, more career goals, winning leagues and CL with more teams, going longer without superteam, being in worse NT (Portugal vs Argentina), being best striker in more leagues ect... Also he had better "off-foot" and "header goals" (a la playmaking argument)... Its not close between him and Messi, I agree. But.

[Ainosterhaspie]

I'd say Messi over the very overrated Ronaldo myself. Messi has won the World Cup, the most converted trophy in all of world sports. Cry baby Ronnie hasn't.

Also I suspect many LeBron Stans are also Ronaldo lovers and I think this thread will be locked soon when it descends onto an utter **** lol

I also pick MJ over LeBron, but the gap is closer

LeBron and Cristiano fans are similar, for sure: its people who think, that longevity and fitness could match peak and talent.

You two don't understand LeBron fans.

I have Messi easily over Ronaldo and LeBron over Jordan. Messi and LeBron's games are similar, as are Jordan and Ronaldo's. Messi/LeBron have the more complete game, Jordan/Ronaldo are marginally better scorers and even that edge is debatable.

[Gregoire]

I'd say Messi over the very overrated Ronaldo myself. Messi has won the World Cup, the most converted trophy in all of world sports. Cry baby Ronnie hasn't.

Also I suspect many LeBron Stans are also Ronaldo lovers and I think this thread will be locked soon when it descends onto an utter **** lol

I also pick MJ over LeBron, but the gap is closer

LeBron and Cristiano fans are similar, for sure: its people who think, that longevity and fitness could match peak and talent.

You two don't understand LeBron fans.

I have Messi easily over Ronaldo and LeBron over Jordan. Messi and LeBron's games are similar, as are Jordan and Ronaldo's. Messi/LeBron have the more complete game, Jordan/Ronaldo are marginally better scorers and even that edge is debatable.

I understand Bron fanboys even if you try to change the narrative. LeBron is very similar to CR7 not only because of lack of technique (but a lot of fitness and physicaality) comparing to Messi/MJ, but becuse its LeBron and CR7 have a lot less complete games. LeBron just lack jumper and of-ball game of MJ, tactical diversity, and only could play "LeBron-ball" in his hands for 24 sec and drive and kick. Like CR7 is only poacher, lack passing, dribbling and could only finish. Its all comparing to Messi/MJ of course. CR7 btw isnt better scorer than Messi (they are similar).

Also todays Lebron is very similar to Cristiano Ronaldo: both know deep in mind than their time is gone, they are not relevant and their archrival are better and they will not catch them (Messi and MJ respectively), but their ego needs to score useless records without winning to prove point and take fake legacy. But at this stage public see it and their legacy only became only less and worse from their "longevity". They need to take it and gone.

[Meat]

11>6

it's wild to me that people still put this much stock into media voted accolades, especially when we all know what **** idiots most folks who work in sports media are.

[Djoker]

Not at all. Cristiano Ronaldo had one of the most dominant stretches in football history:

- Champions League three-peat: 2016, 2017, 2018
- Ballon d’Or wins: 2016, 2017
- UEFA Euro champion: 2016
- All-time Champions League top scorer
- Most goals in a single UCL season: 17 goals (2013–14)

The Champions League is the equivalent of the NBA playoffs—it eclipses domestic achievements in terms of prestige, with Europe’s best clubs battling it out.

Yes, Messi won the World Cup, which is why I personally rank him ahead overall. But in terms of peak dominance—especially in clutch, high-stakes games—Ronaldo’s peak was more impactful.

Not close. Peak Messi was another level than peak Ronaldo. Ronaldo was just poacher in the superteam, Messi impact was ball carrier+assists+goals. Its like compare Magic or Curry or LeBron, who creates gravity and make the difference with someone like Dantley or Melo.

In high-stakes games and clutch... lets compare Messi and CR7 stats in WC and Copa/Euro pllayoffs. Messi won more LaLiga titles despite being in generally worse team. And he won comparable CL titles with comparable stats in finals. Actually in most stakes game between them Messi won (CL final). In h2h matches Messi also way ahead.

You’re throwing out a lot of opinions, but let’s stick to what actually happened.

You said “Messi was much more dominant at his peak than Cristiano”—but Ronaldo’s 3-year peak (2016–2018) is one of the most decorated stretches ever:

- 3 consecutive Champions League titles
- 2 Ballon d’Ors (2016, 2017)
- Euro 2016 champion with Portugal
- Top scorer in all 3 UCL seasons

Clutch performances in quarters, semis, and finals—repeatedly.

That’s dominance at the highest level, in the biggest games, against the strongest competition in world football. No other player has matched that kind of sustained impact in such a short span.

You said Messi “carried more” and was “more complete”. Sure, I agree Messi was better at more things. But this isn’t about play style, it’s about results. Ronaldo's role was to score and win, and in that stretch, he did exactly that.

Messi had incredible moments, but he’s never had a 3-year like that - 3 UCLs, 2 Ballon d’Ors, and a Euro. That’s the definition of peak dominance. The results speak louder than opinions. Your post wasn't about career, but about peak dominance. Ronaldo delivered that. Messi was incredible for a long, long stretch, and overall I have him ahead of Ronaldo by a hair. But peak? That has to be Ronaldo.

Your post implies that Ronaldo had the same role on his team that Messi had which couldn't be further from the truth. Ronaldo in his latter Madrid years became a poacher. He received service from world class players behind him (Modric, Kroos, Casemiro, Marcelo) and finished these chances. Now. he was a very good finisher but this isn't close to as impressive as what prime Messi was doing in the CL from say 2009-2011. Plenty of players since have replicated Ronaldo's performances... Lewandowski in 2020, Benzema in 2022, Haaland in 2023. All those guys put up big goal totals in knockout stages of the CL and led their teams to victory. Ronaldo was more durable and consistent than these players obviously but the level of his performances doesn't touch the pantheon greats of the sport.

Messi on the other hand scored chances AND created chances with both his passing and dribbling. Messi is literally a GOAT-level scorer, passer and dribbler. Ronaldo is just a GOAT-level scorer. Younger Ronaldo circa 2012 was clearly a superior player than 2016-2018 version IMO even if the stats don't say so. Also, his 2016 Euro run is super overrated. He only showed up against Hungary in the group stage and then against a really mediocre Wales side, maybe the worst team ever to make the SF of the Euro.

[bledredwine]

So did Jordan lol

lol no. That's literally a narrative started by Lebron fans as an excuse to compare the two. It was never a narrative in the 90s.

Even the PC forum ranked Rodman as a top 100 player. Only insane people try to rank him higher. Those of us who watched know.

Um, yeah it absolutely was. I know you didn't watch during the 90s, but the Bulls were considered a powerhouse during the 90s and were absolutely considered a stacked team. I just can't with this revisionist history from people who clearly weren't watching during that time frame (and don't pretend you did because no you didn't).

Go ahead and show me any clip from the 90s referring to the Bulls squad as a superteam, because not of their dominance but their actual assembly.
Not CURRENT from lebron fans or whatever, but actually existing in the 90s and at the time.

I'll wait for as long as it takes.

And what about 91-93 three-peat? Are you going to refer to Grant, Bill Cartwright, BJ, Paxson, etc as the makings of a superteam as well?

Did Jordan ever get to play with a player who equaled or came near his production?

[Ainosterhaspie]

LeBron and Cristiano fans are similar, for sure: its people who think, that longevity and fitness could match peak and talent.

You two don't understand LeBron fans.

I have Messi easily over Ronaldo and LeBron over Jordan. Messi and LeBron's games are similar, as are Jordan and Ronaldo's. Messi/LeBron have the more complete game, Jordan/Ronaldo are marginally better scorers and even that edge is debatable.

I understand Bron fanboys even if you try to change the narrative. LeBron is very similar to CR7 not only because of lack of technique (but a lot of fitness and physicaality) comparing to Messi/MJ, but becuse its LeBron and CR7 have a lot less complete games. LeBron just lack jumper and of-ball game of MJ, tactical diversity, and only could play "LeBron-ball" in his hands for 24 sec and drive and kick. Like CR7 is only poacher, lack passing, dribbling and could only finish. Its all comparing to Messi/MJ of course. CR7 btw isnt better scorer than Messi (they are similar).

Also todays Lebron is very similar to Cristiano Ronaldo: both know deep in mind than their time is gone, they are not relevant and their archrival are better and they will not catch them (Messi and MJ respectively), but their ego needs to score useless records without winning to prove point and take fake legacy. But at this stage public see it and their legacy only became only less and worse from their "longevity". They need to take it and gone.

You say you understand LeBron fans, yet no LeBron fan in this thread has assessed this they way you predicted they would and two now have looked at it differently.

LeBron fans were arguing LeBron over Jordan way before longevity came into the picture and those arguments were based on LeBron being elite in all areas of the game with Jordan having only a marginal edge over LeBron in scoring.

That is the exact same argument Messi has over Ronaldo. Ronaldo can finish in ways Messi can't (headers and bicycle kicks on high crosses for example), but Messi, like LeBron is a much better passer, is more unstoppable when he's moving in space and had more unselfish make the right play mindset while Jordan/Ronaldo want all the scoring titles.

Jordan also has more Penaldo about him too, padding his scoring thanks to freebies, while Messi/LeBron work through contact. Jordan had a far friendlier whistle than LeBron which gave him extra points every game.

Jordan and Ronaldo are also the more marketable guys in terms of image. I just see far more similarities between Jordan/Ronaldo and LeBron/Messi, and suspect most LeBron people would agree, though I won't presume to speak for them as you have.

The one similarity between LeBron and Ronaldo that is notable for me is they are outlier physical specimens, but LeBron employs those tools in a much better way than Ronaldo.

[ShouldaPaidBG]

Cristiano vs Messi is more like Westbrook vs Curry

[lessthanjake]

The gap between Messi and Ronaldo is probably bigger. But there’s some different ways to think about this and arguments to be made.

On one hand, LeBron is at least probably actually the #2 player ever, while Ronaldo is further down than that (at least Pele is ahead of him, but also probably a few others). LeBron also has a longevity angle people can push where he does actually have an advantage.

On the other hand, Ronaldo did actually have more success in the competition that has the highest standard of play—the Champions League. It’s not the most *important* competition (that’s the World Cup, which Messi has won and Ronaldo has not), but it does probably have the highest standard of play, at least in the knockout stages. And Ronaldo had more success there than Messi. This is in contrast with LeBron, who simply doesn’t have an argument for having more team success than Jordan. This sort of thing does matter for greatness purposes.

On balance, I think the gap between Messi and Ronaldo is bigger—in significant part because I think the “he had more Champions League success” argument is a pretty awkward one to make when Messi has won the World Cup and Ronaldo hasn’t.

[ScrantonBulls]

lol no. That's literally a narrative started by Lebron fans as an excuse to compare the two. It was never a narrative in the 90s.

Even the PC forum ranked Rodman as a top 100 player. Only insane people try to rank him higher. Those of us who watched know.

Um, yeah it absolutely was. I know you didn't watch during the 90s, but the Bulls were considered a powerhouse during the 90s and were absolutely considered a stacked team. I just can't with this revisionist history from people who clearly weren't watching during that time frame (and don't pretend you did because no you didn't).

Go ahead and show me any clip from the 90s referring to the Bulls squad as a superteam, because not of their dominance but their actual assembly.
Not CURRENT from lebron fans or whatever, but actually existing in the 90s and at the time.

I'll wait for as long as it takes.

And what about 91-93 three-peat? Are you going to refer to Grant, Bill Cartwright, BJ, Paxson, etc as the makings of a superteam as well?

Did Jordan ever get to play with a player who equaled or came near his production?

Imagie acting like you know anything about MJ and 80s/90s basketball while writing the quote in my sig. You're out of your league, son. Just quit with the act.

[Jta444]

Jordan over Lebron. Lebron has recency bias and high-definition video in his favor. Ofc people especially his fans will have a lot of sentimentality and nostalgia over him since his prime was more recent than Jordan. Also more people are able to watch him because the game has become globalized thanks to Jordan.

But yes, Jordan over Lebron easily.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Go ahead and show me any clip from the 90s referring to the Bulls squad as a superteam, because not of their dominance but their actual assembly.
Not CURRENT from lebron fans or whatever, but actually existing in the 90s and at the time.

I'll wait for as long as it takes.

And what about 91-93 three-peat? Are you going to refer to Grant, Bill Cartwright, BJ, Paxson, etc as the makings of a superteam as well?

Did Jordan ever get to play with a player who equaled or came near his production?

That wasn't really a thing until people got mad at LeBron for wanting to play with other great players just like every other top 10 ATG before him had had the privilege of doing. Then people pretended like top guys playing together had never happened and coined the term to act like it was a new phenomenon. In response, rational people who understand history began pointing out that sure enough, all the other ATGs had quality rosters around them.

Superteams in the 90s wouldn't be that big a deal coming on the heals of the 80s Cetics packed with all stars, the Lakers with two top five all time guys plus an all star or two. Then Jordan's Bulls, Shaq's Lakers and the 00s Celtics continued the trend.

No one throughout NBA history cared about that until LeBron did it and suddenly hyprocites want to act like it's a bad thing if a star gets to play with other stars.

[lessthanjake]

Um, yeah it absolutely was. I know you didn't watch during the 90s, but the Bulls were considered a powerhouse during the 90s and were absolutely considered a stacked team. I just can't with this revisionist history from people who clearly weren't watching during that time frame (and don't pretend you did because no you didn't).

Go ahead and show me any clip from the 90s referring to the Bulls squad as a superteam, because not of their dominance but their actual assembly.
Not CURRENT from lebron fans or whatever, but actually existing in the 90s and at the time.

I'll wait for as long as it takes.

And what about 91-93 three-peat? Are you going to refer to Grant, Bill Cartwright, BJ, Paxson, etc as the makings of a superteam as well?

Did Jordan ever get to play with a player who equaled or came near his production?

Imagie acting like you know anything about MJ and 80s/90s basketball while writing the quote in my sig. You're out of your league, son. Just quit with the act.

Okay, so I lived in the Chicago area throughout the 1990s and watched virtually all their games and generally paid a lot of attention to them. Grant and Rodman were definitely seen as the third-best players on those three-peat teams, but they were not considered serious stars, and people really did not think that the Bulls were a stacked superteam. Of course, people understood that Pippen was an elite player and that the Bulls had a good supporting cast, but the Bulls were absolutely understood as a team that was clearly led by Jordan, who had a great sidekick in Pippen, and some well-fitting pieces around them. They weren’t considered a “superteam” any more than a team like the Shaq/Kobe Lakers were. Anyone calling those Bulls a “superteam” really is just trying to go back post-hoc and apply a concept to them that no one thought applied at the time, as a way to counter arguments against LeBron.

[Tracymcgoaty]

Not close. Peak Messi was another level than peak Ronaldo. Ronaldo was just poacher in the superteam, Messi impact was ball carrier+assists+goals. Its like compare Magic or Curry or LeBron, who creates gravity and make the difference with someone like Dantley or Melo.

In high-stakes games and clutch... lets compare Messi and CR7 stats in WC and Copa/Euro pllayoffs. Messi won more LaLiga titles despite being in generally worse team. And he won comparable CL titles with comparable stats in finals. Actually in most stakes game between them Messi won (CL final). In h2h matches Messi also way ahead.

You’re throwing out a lot of opinions, but let’s stick to what actually happened.

You said “Messi was much more dominant at his peak than Cristiano”—but Ronaldo’s 3-year peak (2016–2018) is one of the most decorated stretches ever:

- 3 consecutive Champions League titles
- 2 Ballon d’Ors (2016, 2017)
- Euro 2016 champion with Portugal
- Top scorer in all 3 UCL seasons

Clutch performances in quarters, semis, and finals—repeatedly.

That’s dominance at the highest level, in the biggest games, against the strongest competition in world football. No other player has matched that kind of sustained impact in such a short span.

You said Messi “carried more” and was “more complete”. Sure, I agree Messi was better at more things. But this isn’t about play style, it’s about results. Ronaldo's role was to score and win, and in that stretch, he did exactly that.

Messi had incredible moments, but he’s never had a 3-year like that - 3 UCLs, 2 Ballon d’Ors, and a Euro. That’s the definition of peak dominance. The results speak louder than opinions. Your post wasn't about career, but about peak dominance. Ronaldo delivered that. Messi was incredible for a long, long stretch, and overall I have him ahead of Ronaldo by a hair. But peak? That has to be Ronaldo.

Your post implies that Ronaldo had the same role on his team that Messi had which couldn't be further from the truth. Ronaldo in his latter Madrid years became a poacher. He received service from world class players behind him (Modric, Kroos, Casemiro, Marcelo) and finished these chances. Now. he was a very good finisher but this isn't close to as impressive as what prime Messi was doing in the CL from say 2009-2011. Plenty of players since have replicated Ronaldo's performances... Lewandowski in 2020, Benzema in 2022, Haaland in 2023. All those guys put up big goal totals in knockout stages of the CL and led their teams to victory. Ronaldo was more durable and consistent than these players obviously but the level of his performances doesn't touch the pantheon greats of the sport.

Messi on the other hand scored chances AND created chances with both his passing and dribbling. Messi is literally a GOAT-level scorer, passer and dribbler. Ronaldo is just a GOAT-level scorer. Younger Ronaldo circa 2012 was clearly a superior player than 2016-2018 version IMO even if the stats don't say so. Also, his 2016 Euro run is super overrated. He only showed up against Hungary in the group stage and then against a really mediocre Wales side, maybe the worst team ever to make the SF of the Euro.

THANK YOU! Finally someone who actually watched the 2016 tournament! They won against france in the finals when he was on the bench FFS.

[KGtabake]

Ronaldo hasn't won the greatest trophy in world sports.
Nothing is comparable with the World Cup.
5 billion people watched the Final in 2022.
5 BILLION.
Messi has won everything.
It's not a debate.
For basketball we've said the same things millions of times, everyone can have his/her opinion.
But for football, there's no debate.

so if a player wins the balloon d'or 12 times and leads his league is scoring every year and has a bunch of league titles and champions league titles but his home country is Ghana or Switzerland he'll basically have no shot at winning the world cup therefore will never be goat. interesting

My dude.
Messi has won the ballon d or a bazillion times.
And the champions league.
And championships. And cups.
And has a million goals. And a million assists.

So does Ronaldo.
The crucial difference is that Messi won with Argentina everything that could be won in the last 5 years. And the World Cup sealed the deal.

If you know any player from Switzerland or Ghana that came close to the things you mentioned, let us know.

[EmpireFalls]

Is one World Cup truly that big of a deal to separate what were pretty equal careers up to that stage?

Or was the gap between Messi and Ronaldo already enormous before 2022?

[lessthanjake]

Is one World Cup truly that big of a deal to separate what were pretty equal careers up to that stage?

Or was the gap between Messi and Ronaldo already enormous before 2022?

Prior to winning the World Cup, Messi was already widely understood to be the superior player to Ronaldo and was widely seen as a top-tier GOAT candidate, while Ronaldo was not. The World Cup was just an important missing piece in Messi’s GOAT resumé (not as compared to Ronaldo—who has never won the World Cup—but compared to guys like Pelé and Maradona). Regarding the comparison between Messi and Ronaldo, prior to Messi winning the World Cup, it was actually a bit ambiguous which one of Messi or Ronaldo had had more team success, since Messi had won more league titles and more domestic cups, but Ronaldo had won the Champions League more times, and they’d both won a continental title with their national team (i.e. the Euros and Copa America). With the World Cup win, Messi has pretty clearly had more team success in his career, on top of being pretty clearly the superior individual performer. But Messi was already widely considered the greater player even before that. The World Cup just clearly closed the door in any discussion, outside of the most dedicated pro-Ronaldo people.

But yeah, the World Cup is an incredibly big deal in soccer, because it is by far the most important competition in the sport. It is a major hole in a GOAT resumé to not have it, and it is an unparalleled addition to add it. Think of it as being somewhat akin to what winning a title in basketball does for the perception of a player’s greatness in the NBA. It’s obviously a bit different, since there’s other things to win in soccer, but the World Cup is unequivocally the most important. Maybe in that sense it’s like what winning the NCAA tournament in basketball does for a player’s resumé in terms of college basketball greatness.