Cooper Flagg

[NoDopeOnSundays]

A lot depends on the franchise.

The Mavs, if I'm not mistaken, had to trade away basically every starter in Luka's rookie season because they couldn't handle a European white rookie being alpha dog.

The franchise is going to have to give Coop the keys and dismiss anyone not getting in line.

Franchises can ruin careers.

So you're saying he's cooked if he ends up with LaMelo?

[Handlez]

A lot depends on the franchise.

The Mavs, if I'm not mistaken, had to trade away basically every starter in Luka's rookie season because they couldn't handle a European white rookie being alpha dog.

The franchise is going to have to give Coop the keys and dismiss anyone not getting in line.

Franchises can ruin careers.

So you're saying he's cooked if he ends up with LaMelo?

Sheesh.

I'd hate to see it.

Melo is a fantastic highlight player, but I'm concerned about his willingness or ability to play winning basketball. And he seems to miss every other game for whatever reason.

[sikma42]

Flagg is what, a 90-95th percentile athlete in college, along with a 95th+ percentile basketball IQ guy?

In the pros those numbers are gonna be more like 75th and 75th initially. More than enough to be good player right out of the gate, but the adjustment period will be a bit harsh to begin with, because he doesn’t have any super easy way to score, and one assumes his teammates are going to kinda suck unless one of these extra pick holding teams gets really lucky.

That’s why I think he’ll struggle a bit as a rookie and a bunch of people are going to flip out and be quick to judge. But once he gets some experience and additional muscle (which seems inevitable on that frame, at his age), he’ll be back to an 80th+ percentile athlete with 95th+ percentile hoops IQ, along with his remarkable ability to keep adding skills.

Gonna stick with All-Star by year three and All-NBA by year five. And that seems reasonably conservative and based on starting on a struggling team with less-than-ideal teammates for a point forward.

I’d put him as a 99 percentile athlete and 85th percentile basketball iq.

Nah. 99th percentile athlete is guys like Zion and the Thompson twins, Westbrook, DRose, Wall, etc. Cooper doesn’t have a great first step, great hops, freaky Dyson Daniels reflexes, or anything like that. The fact that he’s well above-average in all of those things for his size is still pretty rare, but def not 99th percentile rare.

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[Duke4life831]

Whoever drafts him, they best not have a high Usage player. If they do, they better trade away that high usage guy.

If you draft Flagg, you toss him in the point forward role from day 1. Having him play off of a high usage guard will just be wasting valuable time he can have in that role, which will be his role in the league.

Him next to Ball would be a horrible start to his career.

[JustBuzzin]

A lot depends on the franchise.

The Mavs, if I'm not mistaken, had to trade away basically every starter in Luka's rookie season because they couldn't handle a European white rookie being alpha dog.

The franchise is going to have to give Coop the keys and dismiss anyone not getting in line.

Franchises can ruin careers.

So you're saying he's cooked if he ends up with LaMelo?

Sheesh.

I'd hate to see it.

Melo is a fantastic highlight player, but I'm concerned about his willingness or ability to play winning basketball. And he seems to miss every other game for whatever reason.

There is also the chance Charlotte trades Melo and just build around Flagg/Miller.

I like the idea of the ball in Flagg's hands as the point forward. We don't necessarily have to keep Melo if we get Flagg.

[tmorgan]

Whoever drafts him, they best not have a high Usage player. If they do, they better trade away that high usage guy.

If you draft Flagg, you toss him in the point forward role from day 1. Having him play off of a high usage guard will just be wasting valuable time he can have in that role, which will be his role in the league.

Him next to Ball would be a horrible start to his career.

I think that highly depends on the high usage player you’re talking about.

My Pistons have such a player, but one that’s willing to do whatever it takes to win. If you believe Cade, and I have no reason not to, if the opposing team wants to keep the ball out of his hands and will overcommit to do so, he’s fine with someone else getting the shine.

Of course, we aren’t going to have a shot at Flagg, so it doesn’t really matter. And I agree LaMelo, in his current form, is the wrong kind of teammate. But I do think Cooper isn’t going to be a 20 ppg guy in the beginning, if it all, so having guys that want shots isn’t really a problem. It seems like most successful teams have multiple playmakers anyway, so as long as you aren’t talking about a Beal in Washington scenario, or LaMelo, I think there are plenty of great fits.

[Duke4life831]

Whoever drafts him, they best not have a high Usage player. If they do, they better trade away that high usage guy.

If you draft Flagg, you toss him in the point forward role from day 1. Having him play off of a high usage guard will just be wasting valuable time he can have in that role, which will be his role in the league.

Him next to Ball would be a horrible start to his career.

I think that highly depends on the high usage player you’re talking about.

My Pistons have such a player, but one that’s willing to do whatever it takes to win. If you believe Cade, and I have no reason not to, if the opposing team wants to keep the ball out of his hands and will overcommit to do so, he’s fine with someone else getting the shine.

Of course, we aren’t going to have a shot at Flagg, so it doesn’t really matter. And I agree LaMelo, in his current form, is the wrong kind of teammate. But I do think Cooper isn’t going to be a 20 ppg guy in the beginning, if it all, so having guys that want shots isn’t really a problem. It seems like most successful teams have multiple playmakers anyway, so as long as you aren’t talking about a Beal in Washington scenario, or LaMelo, I think there are plenty of great fits.

I think any high usage player in general will be a bad pairing if you’re trying to reach Flagg’s ceiling. Doesn’t matter if it will be a struggle his first season or two.

The Spurs aren’t going to make the playoffs in the first two years of Wemby, just like the Cavs didn’t make the playoffs the first two years with LeBron. So I don’t think immediate individual or team success really matters here.

But if I’m drafting Flagg, my hope is he is going to be THE franchise cornerstone. At least for 2 years, I’m handing him the ball and a high usage role to see how much he improves in those 2-3 years. If by then he’s not showing potential as your #1 option, okay I might start to rethink it.

Right now I don’t want to pair him with another high usage player. I’m giving him the LeBron/Luka treatment from day 1.

Luka his first year: Harrison Barnes and Tim Hardaway were the 2nd and 3rd leading scorers.
Year 2: they did bring in KP, but KP has always been a very low Time Per Possession guy. So it’s not like he was taking the ball out of Luka’s hands.

Same thing with LeBron. Hell Jeff McInnis was Cleveland’s secondary ball handler and 3rd scoring option during LeBron’s 2nd year.

I think this is the same scenario you build around Flagg early on. Allow him to take his bumps and bruises early on. Then slowly start filling out off ball players that fit around him. Then once he has a really good grasp as the definitive #1 guy, you can bring in another high usage guy to be his #2.

[tmorgan]

Just saving a big quote, but def a good post above.

Not sure I agree. “Sink or swim” isn’t always the best approach with young guys. Maybe it’s fine with someone this talented, but I’m not so sure. It’ll be fun to see whatever franchise gets him decides to do, tho.

So do you think going to the Spurs would be bad for Coop? Raps? Sounds like the Wizards are a good fit in your mind as long as they Siberia Poole ahead of time. Blazers? Hornets if they deal Ball? I mean, one of those happening is pretty damn likely…

[Duke4life831]

Just saving a big quote, but def a good post above.

Not sure I agree. “Sink or swim” isn’t always the best approach with young guys. Maybe it’s fine with someone this talented, but I’m not so sure. It’ll be fun to see whatever franchise gets him decides to do, tho.

So do you think going to the Spurs would be bad for Coop? Raps? Sounds like the Wizards are a good fit in your mind as long as they Siberia Poole ahead of time. Blazers? Hornets if they deal Ball? I mean, one of those happening is pretty damn likely…

I agree it’s not always the best route to go. I do think you need certain qualities to make it work. You need the elite skill level and you need confidence that never wavers. I do think Flagg fits those things.

I don’t think Washington is a good fit for any player in all honesty. They have yet to show the owner or the front office have any idea what they’re doing (similar to the Pelicans). I do think the Jazz are the best fit, and I’m not saying this because he’s white. I think this because Jazz has Ainge running things and a ton of assets.

I do think if it’s the Hornets, best bet would be to trade Ball. Plus that should help boost the rebuild with the excess assets you would get from Ball. Portland doesn’t seem like a bad landing spot either. They have some guards that are gunners, but I don’t think Simons or Sharpe are high enough level players to get in Flagg’s way. If they don’t buy in, those are east trades to make.

I think the Spurs would be great as well. I don’t know Fox’s contract. But as long as he only has like a year left after this year, I don’t think that would be an issue. Because there you can do a somewhat slow transition to Flagg being your primary guy. And if Fox is on an expiring deal next year. You can just flip him at the deadline for an asset, if you’re out of playoff contention. But ya long term, Wemby next to Flagg is pretty much the ideal pairing on both ends. Wemby floats around that 2 second Time Per Possession area. Which would be ideal, if Flagg is your primary guy.

[CptCrunch]

Flagg is what, a 90-95th percentile athlete in college, along with a 95th+ percentile basketball IQ guy?

In the pros those numbers are gonna be more like 75th and 75th initially. More than enough to be good player right out of the gate, but the adjustment period will be a bit harsh to begin with, because he doesn’t have any super easy way to score, and one assumes his teammates are going to kinda suck unless one of these extra pick holding teams gets really lucky.

That’s why I think he’ll struggle a bit as a rookie and a bunch of people are going to flip out and be quick to judge. But once he gets some experience and additional muscle (which seems inevitable on that frame, at his age), he’ll be back to an 80th+ percentile athlete with 95th+ percentile hoops IQ, along with his remarkable ability to keep adding skills.

Gonna stick with All-Star by year three and All-NBA by year five. And that seems reasonably conservative and based on starting on a struggling team with less-than-ideal teammates for a point forward.

I’d put him as a 99 percentile athlete and 85th percentile basketball iq.

Nah. 99th percentile athlete is guys like Zion and the Thompson twins, Westbrook, DRose, Wall, etc. Cooper doesn’t have a great first step, great hops, freaky Dyson Daniels reflexes, or anything like that. The fact that he’s well above-average in all of those things for his size is still pretty rare, but def not 99th percentile rare.

Top 1% just implies 1% of ~450 NBA players, which is about top 5 in the league which fits the Thompson, Westbrook, Rose. Wall wasn't near top 1%, he was closer to top 10-20 in the NBA.

Cooper will be a top 15% athlete in the NBA. He is going to be about top 70 athelete, so roughly he is the top 2 athelete on an average team.

[Handlez]

Whoever drafts him, they best not have a high Usage player. If they do, they better trade away that high usage guy.

If you draft Flagg, you toss him in the point forward role from day 1. Having him play off of a high usage guard will just be wasting valuable time he can have in that role, which will be his role in the league.

Him next to Ball would be a horrible start to his career.

I think that highly depends on the high usage player you’re talking about.

My Pistons have such a player, but one that’s willing to do whatever it takes to win. If you believe Cade, and I have no reason not to, if the opposing team wants to keep the ball out of his hands and will overcommit to do so, he’s fine with someone else getting the shine.

Of course, we aren’t going to have a shot at Flagg, so it doesn’t really matter. And I agree LaMelo, in his current form, is the wrong kind of teammate. But I do think Cooper isn’t going to be a 20 ppg guy in the beginning, if it all, so having guys that want shots isn’t really a problem. It seems like most successful teams have multiple playmakers anyway, so as long as you aren’t talking about a Beal in Washington scenario, or LaMelo, I think there are plenty of great fits.

I think any high usage player in general will be a bad pairing if you’re trying to reach Flagg’s ceiling. Doesn’t matter if it will be a struggle his first season or two.

The Spurs aren’t going to make the playoffs in the first two years of Wemby, just like the Cavs didn’t make the playoffs the first two years with LeBron. So I don’t think immediate individual or team success really matters here.

But if I’m drafting Flagg, my hope is he is going to be THE franchise cornerstone. At least for 2 years, I’m handing him the ball and a high usage role to see how much he improves in those 2-3 years. If by then he’s not showing potential as your #1 option, okay I might start to rethink it.

Right now I don’t want to pair him with another high usage player. I’m giving him the LeBron/Luka treatment from day 1.

Luka his first year: Harrison Barnes and Tim Hardaway were the 2nd and 3rd leading scorers.
Year 2: they did bring in KP, but KP has always been a very low Time Per Possession guy. So it’s not like he was taking the ball out of Luka’s hands.

Same thing with LeBron. Hell Jeff McInnis was Cleveland’s secondary ball handler and 3rd scoring option during LeBron’s 2nd year.

I think this is the same scenario you build around Flagg early on. Allow him to take his bumps and bruises early on. Then slowly start filling out off ball players that fit around him. Then once he has a really good grasp as the definitive #1 guy, you can bring in another high usage guy to be his #2.

Correct.

Maximize his potential by allowing him to learn on the court.

He'll just reach his potential faster that way.

[sikma42]

I’d put him as a 99 percentile athlete and 85th percentile basketball iq.

Nah. 99th percentile athlete is guys like Zion and the Thompson twins, Westbrook, DRose, Wall, etc. Cooper doesn’t have a great first step, great hops, freaky Dyson Daniels reflexes, or anything like that. The fact that he’s well above-average in all of those things for his size is still pretty rare, but def not 99th percentile rare.

Top 1% just implies 1% of ~450 NBA players, which is about top 5 in the league which fits the Thompson, Westbrook, Rose. Wall wasn't near top 1%, he was closer to top 10-20 in the NBA.

Cooper will be a top 15% athlete in the NBA. He is going to be about top 70 athelete, so roughly he is the top 2 athelete on an average team.

To be fair, the original message said top percentile of "college athletes." Flagg is definitely top 1% of college athletes imo.

[tsherkin]

So do you think going to the Spurs would be bad for Coop? Raps?

If the Spurs nab Flagg, they're going to be a dynasty again.

I hope Toronto gets him, for obvious reasons, but a San Antonio landing would be insane. Him and Wemby on the same roster? JFC.

[Duke4life831]

Flagg with one of his most dominant games.

28/8/7 with 2 steals and 3 blocks

10-16 shooting and 3-6 from 3.

The guy is a freak

[JustBuzzin]

Flagg with one of his most dominant games.

28/8/7 with 2 steals and 3 blocks

10-16 shooting and 3-6 from 3.

The guy is a freak

Looked like Grant Hill Jr. tonight.

I'm sold on this kid as a superstar. I wasn't sold earlier in the season, but he's doing it all out there now.

Please let Charlotte get this kid in the draft!

[Special_Puppy]

Yeah don’t overthink it

[azcatz11]

Flagg with one of his most dominant games.

28/8/7 with 2 steals and 3 blocks

10-16 shooting and 3-6 from 3.

The guy is a freak

Looked like Grant Hill Jr. tonight.

I'm sold on this kid as a superstar. I wasn't sold earlier in the season, but he's doing it all out there now.

Please let Charlotte get this kid in the draft!

Wake forest isn’t that bad either. They’re a decent team and Flagg and duke schooled like a hs girls team.

[Duke4life831]

Flagg with one of his most dominant games.

28/8/7 with 2 steals and 3 blocks

10-16 shooting and 3-6 from 3.

The guy is a freak

Looked like Grant Hill Jr. tonight.

I'm sold on this kid as a superstar. I wasn't sold earlier in the season, but he's doing it all out there now.

Please let Charlotte get this kid in the draft!

Yup. The fact that he’s basically been a 90% FT shooter and 40% 3pt shooter after the first month of the season.

Adding high level shooting potential to his point forward offensive skill set and elite defense.

I’ve been one that hasn’t been calling him a generational prospect. But I’m starting to hop on that train now. His offensive potential is actually higher than his defense. And that’s crazy to say

[FrodoBaggins]

His rate of improvement is crazy.

[Ice Man]

Flagg with one of his most dominant games.

28/8/7 with 2 steals and 3 blocks

10-16 shooting and 3-6 from 3.

The guy is a freak

Plus smothering defense. By my count, his man (meaning anybody on the court, given how much switching went on) scored one basket on him all game. Most don't even try to shoot. They take a dribble or two, get nowhere, and then pass the ball.

He's also an excellent positional defender when off the ball. Honestly, he would be a useful NBA player today, at age 18, even if he had no offensive abilities, because you could use him as a glue player -- rebounder, floor runner, dunker.