NBA looking to change Draft Lottery; 76ers say no

[Mik317]

I don't think anybody is jealous of us...because from the outside looking in..we are a **** ass team with injury prone bigs and a guy who may never play for us.

Being a fan of a team gives you a different prospective on this and not from a optimism standpoint.

Like a lot dudes on this board think Turner and Hawes were good NBA players because statswise...they looked the part...but because they didn't watch the games, they don't have that prospective that the numbers do lie a bit (and I liked both players).

Its a difference of perspective and I do wish some Sixers fans would stop being so aggressive about it...doesn't help out case really.

I do wonder why some people seem to care so much...since our being ass really doesn't effect them too much.

[BullyKing]

I am very much against tanking and would propose a change to the draft system in the future, however I don't like what is being done by the league regarding this.

Here are some key points I will make:
1. If any change happens to the drafting system, there should be a 1-2 year buffer after the announcement is made. This is unfair to teams who already followed through with their plans.
2. The proposed idea for the draft change by the NBA is not that good. This will not solve the tanking issue. Why you ask? well, if you are the worst team after the RS than at worst you can get the 4th pick so it would still be in a teams best interest to tank.
3. Any team that is the worst in the league, whether on purpose or not, will have a slower turnaround than other teams that are much better but still in the draft. This can make it very hard for teams to rebound based on drafting talent.

Now of course drafting positions does not guarantee the best player, there have been plenty of top picks busts and plenty of great players selected late. But all things equal this is still not a good idea.

I think the lotto system should change but the current plan is not good.

I agree with all of this and would add that if the top six teams all have an equal shot at the top pick, it will probably make tanking worse. How many teams were mid-way between the playoffs and bottom-6 at various points in the year? I think a good number of those team at the 7-12 spots would just try to get into the bottom six rather than make a push for the last playoff spot.

[Vides990]

So if we tried ot sign Bledsoe, they matched...would all of our tanking sins be absolved?

Heres the thing about FA.

No one of worth is walking through those doors (If we had of Kept Jrue, Turner, and Hawes...this would be the case too BTW). So you are left with oversigning mid-tier dudes and hoping they pan out into stars. I can't think of many times that has worked out for someone.

Like I have said throughout all of this noise about tanking...if there was a better choice the franchise could have made, I am all ears...however no matter what choice they made, there is risks involved. Hinkie's Tankapalooza could easily backfire (via injuries, not getting the best pick, dudes just not being good)...very easily, however I do wish people would understand that it is just simply another method to build a team..one that we haven't chosen and honestly not many teams are capable of doing (Most teams owners wouldn't stand for it...Josh Harris is on board 100%, most teams don't have the ability to just empty up the board like we do due to having awful contracts..we have/had none). We were just in a special position to try it out. and well we are doing it...I understand you don't want to praise us for being ass..but I do wish people would stop with the hatred we seem to get.

We tried staying the Course with late draft picks..didn't work out.
We tried cashing in with Bynum...it didn't work out.
We for some reason tried a win now move...lol.

We are now trying to the tanking route...who knows how it ends.

But it is worth a try, right?

If you can give me a better solution from the Jrue years, then I'm all ears...I just don't see one better than the choice we made (and I'm not even all happy about the Embiid and Saric draft)

From that perspective fair points because I do agree the team needed new direction to move on from Jrue and the failed years of Iggy (he wasn't a superstar but they tried him as one). I think the point is now that Hinkie has taken it too far and is now not looking at other options that could help improve his team more quickly or help the young guys develop better. People complain about Morey turning over players but at least those guys have NBA talent, Hinkie turned the team over with d-league talent, guys that won’t be in the league 2 years from now, that doesn’t help anyone, especially the young guys.

It really isn’t losing that is the issue, it’s the fact the team has given up on even attempting to be competitive. Philly seems to think rolling over unused cap space (in excess of 22 mill) is acceptable when the league purposely has a salary floor so teams don’t do this (granted no repercussions so keep on keeping on). I mean I hear Sixers fans say its ok, they’ll just give the money to the players on the team as a “bonus.” Guess what I don’t think the rest of the NBPA is happy about that, they could easily give out 1 yr 5-10 mill deals to veterans to help groom the young guys. The team would still be terrible and it gets lottery picks but Hinkie seems to need that 25% chance vs a 15% chance when it’s been proven over and over the number 1 pick is no guarantee.

[sixerswillrule]

I just don't think Hinkie deserves the praise that he's been getting, especially since he's lost quite a few trades in getting rid of the likes of Hawes and Turner (the only good trade thus far is the Jrue Holiday trade... and that remains to be seen)

If anything better was out there in return for Hawes or Turner, then that would've been done. If you would characterize that as "losing", umm, okay. Losing in terms of what we could've been had in a trade for Turner in July of 2010 vs. February of 2014? Well, yeah. Hindsight is 20/20. Losing in terms of what could've been done in February of 2014? I don't think so. Clearly, those players didn't hold much value. They were expiring contacts who we didn't plan on re-signing. What would've been your proposed alternative? Holding on to these players by signing them to 3-4 year contacts? Seriously?

[Mik317]

I think the system should remain the same..but maybe with lottery drawings for picks 1-5 or 6. A Guaranteed top 5 pick is still not enough hindrance to not tanking...especially in a year like this (in which ironcially not only were we not the worst team in the league but also did not win the lottery and IMO missed out on the best fit in Wiggins...so yeah we totally have benefited from this system yep.)

[GallagherArt]

By the way, for all the perceived Sixers "hate", I don't think it's that much about they way in which the Sixers have been tanking. I think most people agree that the best way to build a team is through high draft picks.

IMO, the biggest reason for the "hate" is how Hinkie is being praised for all of his moves and how some Sixers fans seem to assume that this rebuild is guaranteed to pan out. Again IMO, the Sixers' rebuild is the riskiest plan I've ever seen. They got a good pick with MCW, but their other three cornerstone players are: 1) a raw PF who missed all of his rookie year with a torn ACL, 2) a center with a bad back + bad foot (which are the two worst injuries that a big man can have), and 3) a draft-and-stash player who's not coming to the NBA for another two years, who may not even come at all.

Yes, there's a chance that all of it works out for the Sixers, but unlike the other teams who are trying to rebuild through the draft, there's a much greater chance of missing out. I just don't think Hinkie deserves the praise that he's been getting, especially since he's lost quite a few trades in getting rid of the likes of Hawes and Turner (the only good trade thus far is the Jrue Holiday trade... and that remains to be seen)

Did he really lose the Hawes' trade? We got 2 seconds and Henry Sims, Sims arguably played better than Hawes did for either the Sixers or Cavs. Turner may have been the most unexpected, however he's currently a partially guaranteed MLE player, getting a second rounder for him may have been fairer return than most will admit. There hasn't been a single trade that Hinkie has obviously lost, at least yet. Also, he's made quite a few trades that we've acquired second rounders and players such as Tony Wroten for essentially nothing (heavily protected second rounders or taking on expiring contracts to be waived).

[BullyKing]

So if we tried ot sign Bledsoe, they matched...would all of our tanking sins be absolved?

Heres the thing about FA.

No one of worth is walking through those doors (If we had of Kept Jrue, Turner, and Hawes...this would be the case too BTW). So you are left with oversigning mid-tier dudes and hoping they pan out into stars. I can't think of many times that has worked out for someone.

Like I have said throughout all of this noise about tanking...if there was a better choice the franchise could have made, I am all ears...however no matter what choice they made, there is risks involved. Hinkie's Tankapalooza could easily backfire (via injuries, not getting the best pick, dudes just not being good)...very easily, however I do wish people would understand that it is just simply another method to build a team..one that we haven't chosen and honestly not many teams are capable of doing (Most teams owners wouldn't stand for it...Josh Harris is on board 100%, most teams don't have the ability to just empty up the board like we do due to having awful contracts..we have/had none). We were just in a special position to try it out. and well we are doing it...I understand you don't want to praise us for being ass..but I do wish people would stop with the hatred we seem to get.

We tried staying the Course with late draft picks..didn't work out.
We tried cashing in with Bynum...it didn't work out.
We for some reason tried a win now move...lol.

We are now trying to the tanking route...who knows how it ends.

But it is worth a try, right?

If you can give me a better solution from the Jrue years, then I'm all ears...I just don't see one better than the choice we made (and I'm not even all happy about the Embiid and Saric draft)

Guess what I don’t think the rest of the NBPA is happy about that, they could easily give out 1 yr 5-10 mill deals to veterans to help groom the young guys. The team would still be terrible and it gets lottery picks but Hinkie seems to need that 25% chance vs a 15% chance when it’s been proven over and over the number 1 pick is no guarantee.

Personally, I think this whole "veteranosity" is way overrated and really has no impact on development. But look, if you think he should give someone like Shawn Marion a 1 year, 8 million deal "to help groom the young guys." Fine, whatever, I wouldn't really care. But is the difference between doing that and not doing that really a reason for the uproar about the Sixers tanking and/or implementing a new lottery system immediately?

[BullyKing]

By the way, for all the perceived Sixers "hate", I don't think it's that much about they way in which the Sixers have been tanking. I think most people agree that the best way to build a team is through high draft picks.

IMO, the biggest reason for the "hate" is how Hinkie is being praised for all of his moves and how some Sixers fans seem to assume that this rebuild is guaranteed to pan out. Again IMO, the Sixers' rebuild is the riskiest plan I've ever seen. They got a good pick with MCW, but their other three cornerstone players are: 1) a raw PF who missed all of his rookie year with a torn ACL, 2) a center with a bad back + bad foot (which are the two worst injuries that a big man can have), and 3) a draft-and-stash player who's not coming to the NBA for another two years, who may not even come at all.

Yes, there's a chance that all of it works out for the Sixers, but unlike the other teams who are trying to rebuild through the draft, there's a much greater chance of missing out. I just don't think Hinkie deserves the praise that he's been getting, especially since he's lost quite a few trades in getting rid of the likes of Hawes and Turner (the only good trade thus far is the Jrue Holiday trade... and that remains to be seen)

Did he really lose the Hawes' trade? We got 2 seconds and Henry Sims, Sims arguably played better than Hawes did for either the Sixers or Cavs. Turner may have been the most unexpected, however he's currently a partially guaranteed MLE player, getting a second rounder for him may have been fair return. There hasn't been a single trade that Hinkie has obviously lost to this point. Also, he's made quite a few trades that we've acquired second rounders and players such as Wroten for nothing (heavily protected second rounders or taking on expiring contracts).

And while its surely too soon to call it a win, I think most people would admit to being surprised at how much value he got for moving from 10 to 12 in the draft.

[Mik317]

I'm struggling w/ the idea of signing some washed up vet to "teach" our young players while also either taking minutes away from them or being a waste of a roster spot. If we would sign someone I'd rather he be a future piece or something. We still have Thad and Jason Richardson to give that "veteran leadership". Besides, I think giving guys a long rope is a better way for some to learn than constantly yanking them for a vet who "plays the right way", we did that with Turner and probably **** him up worse in the process. Cap Space is also useful for facilitating lopsided trades to get prospects and help other teams clear cap space.'

Also...I don't think we will be as bad as people think this year. It's summertime optisism and all that but I think adding Noel and KJ alongside of MCWs development will add a few wins. If McRae is a steal like we hope, we may be a lot better than expected...after all remember that the Suns were supposed to be awful last year too.

[Vides990]

Personally, I think this whole "veteranosity" is way overrated and really has no impact on development. But look, if you think he should give someone like Shawn Marion a 1 year, 8 million deal "to help groom the young guys." Fine, whatever, I wouldn't really care. But is the difference between doing that and not doing that really a reason for the uproar about the Sixers tanking and/or implementing a new lottery system immediately?

I don't know how you possibly can think that when literally every player that sticks in the league credits veteran stars or role players on why they were able to find their niche and become a career player. Barkley, Jordan, Jalen Rose, Kenny Smith, Lebron, Durant, Steve Kerr (any one on open court) etc etc etc all are on record with comments like that. I think there was even an episode where they asked the old guys who their team leaders were when they joined the team and how they were affected by them.

[philly262]

Read through the thread, I can't believe some Sixers fans think that people are actually jealous of their team...

On topic: I actually think the Sixers are right for fighting the potential changes to the lottery system. They definitely should since changing it will harm the way they've been building their team.

I don't think we think other teams are jealous, most Sixer fans could care less about what other teams fans think. The problem that most Sixer fans have is when fans make comments like " The Sixers deserve to be screwed by the NBA" or "When will the Sixers ever stop losing games?" Comments like those make Sixer fans mad because we're really only tanked one season, and it was pretty much only for half a season. We started off 3-0 and people called us stupid for doing that. We'll most likely be bad for one more season.

What we're not doing is trading for marginal players or overpaying for anyone. We're not going to give Bledsoe a max contract because he can't stay healthy and he's a terrible fit. We're not signing Monroe, for the same reason. We're really not looking to trade for anyone because they're no one who is available who is worth our assets, or would stay with us longterm. We're not really tanking, we're just not making moves for the sake of making moves. We're spending money and adding talent like a responible team, and people call that tanking. A regular person who saves his money and waits to use it an approiate time is called a responsible adult, but when a NBA team follows the same model we're looked down at. We should be like Detroit and NO signing guys like Evans and Josh Smith regardless of fit or talent, and then not make the playoffs still but ruin our cap flexibility for the 3-4 years, because that's being competitive.

[kookie_819]

By the way, for all the perceived Sixers "hate", I don't think it's that much about they way in which the Sixers have been tanking. I think most people agree that the best way to build a team is through high draft picks.

IMO, the biggest reason for the "hate" is how Hinkie is being praised for all of his moves and how some Sixers fans seem to assume that this rebuild is guaranteed to pan out. Again IMO, the Sixers' rebuild is the riskiest plan I've ever seen. They got a good pick with MCW, but their other three cornerstone players are: 1) a raw PF who missed all of his rookie year with a torn ACL, 2) a center with a bad back + bad foot (which are the two worst injuries that a big man can have), and 3) a draft-and-stash player who's not coming to the NBA for another two years, who may not even come at all.

Yes, there's a chance that all of it works out for the Sixers, but unlike the other teams who are trying to rebuild through the draft, there's a much greater chance of missing out. I just don't think Hinkie deserves the praise that he's been getting, especially since he's lost quite a few trades in getting rid of the likes of Hawes and Turner (the only good trade thus far is the Jrue Holiday trade... and that remains to be seen)

Did he really lose the Hawes' trade? We got 2 seconds and Henry Sims, Sims arguably played better than Hawes did for either the Sixers or Cavs. Turner may have been the most unexpected, however he's currently a partially guaranteed MLE player, getting a second rounder for him may have been fair return. There hasn't been a single trade that Hinkie has obviously lost, at least yet. Also, he's made quite a few trades that we've acquired second rounders and players such as Tony Wroten for essentially nothing (heavily protected second rounders or taking on expiring contracts to be waived).

IIRC, Hawes was having a pretty good season before he was traded to the Cavs, something like 13/9? And yeah, I definitely think that a stretch big man like Hawes was worth more than 2 seconds and a marginal talent like Henry Sims (who I don't see staying with the Sixers long-term anyway, since they invested a lot in that frontcourt already), even if he was an expiring.

I forgot about Wroten, but he might have been one of the least efficient players last season. I doubt he puts up the same kind of numbers on a more organized team.

Anyway, my point stands. At this moment, Hinkie has picked a bunch of question marks through the draft. If they pan out (and I hope they do, the Sixers being better is more parity for the league), then Hinkie is definitely a genius. But IMO, I think there's just as big a chance that it's not going to work out.

[BullyKing]

Personally, I think this whole "veteranosity" is way overrated and really has no impact on development. But look, if you think he should give someone like Shawn Marion a 1 year, 8 million deal "to help groom the young guys." Fine, whatever, I wouldn't really care. But is the difference between doing that and not doing that really a reason for the uproar about the Sixers tanking and/or implementing a new lottery system immediately?

I don't know how you possibly can think that when literally every player that sticks in the league credits veteran stars or role players on why they were able to find their niche and become a career player. Barkley, Jordan, Jalen Rose, Kenny Smith, Lebron, Durant, Steve Kerr (any one on open court) etc etc etc all are on record with comments like that. I think there was even an episode where they asked the old guys who their team leaders where when they joined the team and how they were affected by them.

Because MCW could easily say the same thing about Thad. Because there's no reason to believe that LeBron or Durant wouldn't have become great players otherwise. I just can't imagine that there is that much difference between having a useless NBA veteran as the 12th man on your bench vs. having Greg Foster on the bench as an assistant coach.

[Mik317]

By the way, for all the perceived Sixers "hate", I don't think it's that much about they way in which the Sixers have been tanking. I think most people agree that the best way to build a team is through high draft picks.

IMO, the biggest reason for the "hate" is how Hinkie is being praised for all of his moves and how some Sixers fans seem to assume that this rebuild is guaranteed to pan out. Again IMO, the Sixers' rebuild is the riskiest plan I've ever seen. They got a good pick with MCW, but their other three cornerstone players are: 1) a raw PF who missed all of his rookie year with a torn ACL, 2) a center with a bad back + bad foot (which are the two worst injuries that a big man can have), and 3) a draft-and-stash player who's not coming to the NBA for another two years, who may not even come at all.

Yes, there's a chance that all of it works out for the Sixers, but unlike the other teams who are trying to rebuild through the draft, there's a much greater chance of missing out. I just don't think Hinkie deserves the praise that he's been getting, especially since he's lost quite a few trades in getting rid of the likes of Hawes and Turner (the only good trade thus far is the Jrue Holiday trade... and that remains to be seen)

Did he really lose the Hawes' trade? We got 2 seconds and Henry Sims, Sims arguably played better than Hawes did for either the Sixers or Cavs. Turner may have been the most unexpected, however he's currently a partially guaranteed MLE player, getting a second rounder for him may have been fair return. There hasn't been a single trade that Hinkie has obviously lost, at least yet. Also, he's made quite a few trades that we've acquired second rounders and players such as Tony Wroten for essentially nothing (heavily protected second rounders or taking on expiring contracts to be waived).

IIRC, Hawes was having a pretty good season before he was traded to the Cavs, something like 13/9? And yeah, I definitely think that a stretch big man like Hawes was worth more than 2 seconds and a marginal talent like Henry Sims (who I don't see staying with the Sixers long-term anyway, since they invested a lot in that frontcourt already), even if he was an expiring.

I forgot about Wroten, but he might have been one of the least efficient players last season. I doubt he puts up the same kind of numbers on a more organized team.

Anyway, my point stands. At this moment, Hinkie has picked a bunch of question marks through the draft. If they pan out (and I hope they do, the Sixers being better is more parity for the league), then Hinkie is definitely a genius. But IMO, I think there's just as big a chance that it's not going to work out.

Can't speak about his time w/ the Cavs but Henry Sims played really damn well with the Sixers and had more of an impact that Hawes. Hawes ALWAYS starts the season looking great, then he gets nicked up and become a soft blob for the rest of the season outside of a few moments. Sims played hard, got boards, got in the way in the post on defense, ran the floor and produced. The Hawes trade worked out very well for us.

As for Wroten, he was very inefficient but he is a nice young prospect that we got for basically nothing. That is a good haul.

The Turner trade is the only one I wasn't happy with and with Turner not getting **** in FA, even that deal becomes a wash (I'm also pretty sure the Pacers don't make that deal if they can do it over).

[BullyKing]

By the way, for all the perceived Sixers "hate", I don't think it's that much about they way in which the Sixers have been tanking. I think most people agree that the best way to build a team is through high draft picks.

IMO, the biggest reason for the "hate" is how Hinkie is being praised for all of his moves and how some Sixers fans seem to assume that this rebuild is guaranteed to pan out. Again IMO, the Sixers' rebuild is the riskiest plan I've ever seen. They got a good pick with MCW, but their other three cornerstone players are: 1) a raw PF who missed all of his rookie year with a torn ACL, 2) a center with a bad back + bad foot (which are the two worst injuries that a big man can have), and 3) a draft-and-stash player who's not coming to the NBA for another two years, who may not even come at all.

Yes, there's a chance that all of it works out for the Sixers, but unlike the other teams who are trying to rebuild through the draft, there's a much greater chance of missing out. I just don't think Hinkie deserves the praise that he's been getting, especially since he's lost quite a few trades in getting rid of the likes of Hawes and Turner (the only good trade thus far is the Jrue Holiday trade... and that remains to be seen)

Did he really lose the Hawes' trade? We got 2 seconds and Henry Sims, Sims arguably played better than Hawes did for either the Sixers or Cavs. Turner may have been the most unexpected, however he's currently a partially guaranteed MLE player, getting a second rounder for him may have been fair return. There hasn't been a single trade that Hinkie has obviously lost, at least yet. Also, he's made quite a few trades that we've acquired second rounders and players such as Tony Wroten for essentially nothing (heavily protected second rounders or taking on expiring contracts to be waived).

IIRC, Hawes was having a pretty good season before he was traded to the Cavs, something like 13/9? And yeah, I definitely think that a stretch big man like Hawes was worth more than 2 seconds and a marginal talent like Henry Sims (who I don't see staying with the Sixers long-term anyway, since they invested a lot in that frontcourt already), even if he was an expiring.

So what, Hinkie turned down better offers? Hawes is worth exactly what the market says he's worth, which was apparently two second round picks and Henry Sims. Would I have liked to have gotten more? Sure. But a player is only worth what the best offer for him is.

[Sixteen]

Idk man, if i wanted my team to tank and there was a team taking all the top 5 picks and ROTY id be pretty darn jealous and angry myself.

[Mik317]

Idk man, if i wanted my team to tank and there was a team taking all the top 5 picks and ROTY id be pretty darn jealous and angry myself.

and this is why people hate on us.

we really shouldn't be all smarmy about being a bad team or over a hypothetical future.

[snoopdogg88]

Too many people in this thread want it both ways

No ones asking you to "declare us champions" or treat Hinkie like a genius

But you can't take shots at the Sixers and make fun of us and call us stupid and then not expect us to get defensive and argue back.

[GallagherArt]

IIRC, Hawes was having a pretty good season before he was traded to the Cavs, something like 13/9? And yeah, I definitely think that a stretch big man like Hawes was worth more than 2 seconds and a marginal talent like Henry Sims (who I don't see staying with the Sixers long-term anyway, since they invested a lot in that frontcourt already), even if he was an expiring.

When I compare players I'm not referring to their raw stats, Sims was a 17.4 PER and a +2.08 DRAPM player for the Sixers, he was stellar considering it was his first opportunity starting. Regarding Hawes, he did play well, he may have been more valuable than what we were able to get for him, however the Sixers had no leverage, he was an expiring contract whom the Sixers' had no desire to resign, if they had him signed to a reasonable contract for multiple seasons they may have gotten more.

I forgot about Wroten, but he might have been one of the least efficient players last season. I doubt he puts up the same kind of numbers on a more organized team.

He was lol, however he's a young asset that we got for a heavily protected second rounder that will never transpire.

Anyway, my point stands. At this moment, Hinkie has picked a bunch of question marks through the draft. If they pan out (and I hope they do, the Sixers being better is more parity for the league), then Hinkie is definitely a genius. But IMO, I think there's just as big a chance that it's not going to work out.

I'm hopeful as a Sixers' fan, however as you mentioned it may not work out, if that's the case than I at least understand what Hinkie's intentions were for his decisions which is more than I can say regarding the decisions of past management.

[andremcosta]

'You guys wanna change it now, that we're going to outtank the whole league? No way!'