rookies: best, sleeper, bust

[DarkAzcura]

Best: Embiid, Smart, Parker
Sleeper: Ennis (MIA and Phx), Warren, Young, Staukus, Payne
Semi Bust - Payton, Hairston
Bust: Napier, Vonleh, Randle,

Honest question here. Why do u think Marcus Smart will be among the best??


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look for who he roots for.

Yep definitely the only reason why he thinks a top 6 pick could be one of the best in the draft.

/sarcasm.

[Kabookalu]

In some cases a bust is a bust no matter where he goes, in other cases it depends on how the player is utilized and the system he's going to.

For example: Aaron Gordon - playing him at SF is a horrible idea. No skill for the position (he's not a shooter and his handle would probably be more effective against 4s than 3s), plus you also take away the value of his defensive toolkit by limiting him to the perimeter. I think he's more Josh Smith, with even less offensive skill. Problem is Orlando already signed Frye to play PF and it also may be Tobias Harris' best position as well.

Even though it looks like he wears blocks for shoes, I think Gordon's greatest asset is his perimeter defense. He seems to provide the greatest impact when he's defending perimeter players and causing havoc with his help defense.

[DarkAzcura]

Bust:
Marcus Smart - Was never high on him outside of a fantasy perspective. People compare him to Lowry but what many people don't realize about Lowry is that he's sort of like a poor mans Chris Paul; crafty and highly skilled player that can blow by you with a sweet hesitation move. Don't see Smart having that same level of craftiness from Lowry. I see Smart as a PG version of Corey Maggette.

I see you are completely forgetting the defensive side of the floor. It's just pre-season, but you should check out some videos of the defensive impact Smart has already had.

[Kabookalu]

I see you are completely forgetting the defensive side of the floor. It's just pre-season, but you should check out some videos of the defensive impact Smart has already had.

No I haven't, it's obvious I was speaking just offensively.

[tiderulz]

What has payton shown? he has played 0 NBA games. His passing really isnt all that good. He lacks play making ability, shooting ability. I just dont see him ever being a quality starter and getting bounced around a ton.

Gordon might not have a position, but he is explosive and the league has made a transition towards positionless basketball anyhow. im not saying the dude will be an MVP, but i cant see him being a terrible player

Payton has already shown so much more than Gordon. You are wrong about him not being a good passer or playmaker. He is also an incredible defender. Here is a gif of just a couple of his plays from the 4th quarter vs Indy.



He was making passes like these all night but our players just weren't making their shots. He could have easily had 9+ assists. People who say Payton isn't a good passer just aren't watching him. Literally every Magic fan on the forum has been extremely impressed with his passing and playmaking.

basing anything on preseason is just completely riddiculous. its like the people that go haywire when someone does well in summer league.

he wasnt a great passer in college, i dont see that changing much in he NBA

interesting, i live in the south and couldnt watch his college games. How did you watch his games? Are you an alum of ULL? And why do you think he wasnt a great passer in college, when Team USA and opposing coaches both said he is a good passer and a great play maker.

and again, you rip Payton for playing zero games, yet he has 3 yrs college experience as opposed to Gordon with just 1 year.

let the hate go man, you will feel better

[E-Balla]

Bust:
Marcus Smart - Was never high on him outside of a fantasy perspective. People compare him to Lowry but what many people don't realize about Lowry is that he's sort of like a poor mans Chris Paul; crafty and highly skilled player that can blow by you with a sweet hesitation move. Don't see Smart having that same level of craftiness from Lowry. I see Smart as a PG version of Corey Maggette.

I see you are completely forgetting the defensive side of the floor. It's just pre-season, but you should check out some videos of the defensive impact Smart has already had.

He could be the best defensive guard ever with his tools. Seriously he was the best defender in the NCAA as a PG.

[GallagherArt]

Best - Embiid - I doubt this season will be his rookie campaign, although believe he will be the best from the class. Generally out of sight is out of mind, most tend to fall asleep on the prospects that they haven't seen in quite some time. Few excerpts from: http://hoopsanalyst.com/?p=1259

Here are the freshmen centers who topped .600 2PP, 17.0 P40, 10.0 R40 and 4.0 B40 as Embiid did (Anthony Davis did also)

http://i58.tinypic.com/v6i04x.png

That’s 4 HOFers and one guy who just couldn’t stay healthy enough to have a chance to make it there. Prospects who become busts don’t post numbers like Joel Embiid did this past year. While there are flags that are varying degrees of red in the stats of the other top prospects, everything about Joel Embiid says he’ll be a dominant NBA player.

Now consider for how shortly Embiid has actually been playing basketball, sort of puts into perspective why everyone was so giddy about him at the time. Injuries are worrisome, however that's why the Sixers are show such hesitancy.

Sleeper- Gordon - I don't believe he'll be a superstar, however I like the prospect of him being a complete two way player who could be elite on defense, believe that's a likely trajectory.

Bust - Exum - May be prospects more likely to bust completely, however believe he's the most likely to be the furthest from reaching his ceiling or of what most expectations were for him.

[majortom71]

really? preseason?

ive seen him play in college. i think thats a better gauge then meaningless preseason games

Ok. So let me get this straight. Pre-season NBA game where the significant number of players are much better than college players is NOT as good as assessing a player than his college games?

I wouldn't pay too much mind to what he has to say about anything Orlando related. He seems like he has a bit of beef with the Magic.

I am not here to make a believer out of this guy, but his arguments are so flawed that I can't help replying to them.
I am not sure if he has an agenda against the Magic since he has a favorable view of Gordon.
If he thinks Payton is bust material that's fine, at least have some valid argument other than "he wasn't a great passer in college".
Also saying that pre-season is meaningless compared to college is downright silly.
The weird thing is most people would think that NBA pre-season would be a good way to gauge a player considering every player there is playing for their livlihood and most are trying to make the cut.
Anyway, I'm not going to waste time here with someone who can't defend their statements properly.

[zronv7]

Best: Wiggins
Sleeper: Warren
Semi Bust - Exum
Bust: Embiid

[tiderulz]

Bust:
Marcus Smart - Was never high on him outside of a fantasy perspective. People compare him to Lowry but what many people don't realize about Lowry is that he's sort of like a poor mans Chris Paul; crafty and highly skilled player that can blow by you with a sweet hesitation move. Don't see Smart having that same level of craftiness from Lowry. I see Smart as a PG version of Corey Maggette.

I see you are completely forgetting the defensive side of the floor. It's just pre-season, but you should check out some videos of the defensive impact Smart has already had.

He could be the best defensive guard ever with his tools. Seriously he was the best defender in the NCAA as a PG.

thought the best defender award went to Payton, another PG.

[DarkAzcura]

I see you are completely forgetting the defensive side of the floor. It's just pre-season, but you should check out some videos of the defensive impact Smart has already had.

No I haven't, it's obvious I was speaking just offensively.

This is a thread about who will be the best rookies (or sleepers or busts). It's not obvious you were only talking about the offensive end because this thread is about judging a player's overall impact. Defense matters when you are going to talk about who is best or worst or a sleeper. This isn't a thread about who will be the best offensive rookie/player in the future.

[Kabookalu]

This is a thread about who will be the best rookies (or sleepers or busts). It's not obvious you were only talking about the offensive end because this thread is about judging a player's overall impact. Defense matters when you are going to talk about who is best or worst or a sleeper. This isn't a thread about who will be the best offensive rookie/player in the future.

We already know Marcus Smart is going to be one of the best defenders at his position, what'll determine his future is how he ends up being offensively.

[Dat2U]

In some cases a bust is a bust no matter where he goes, in other cases it depends on how the player is utilized and the system he's going to.

For example: Aaron Gordon - playing him at SF is a horrible idea. No skill for the position (he's not a shooter and his handle would probably be more effective against 4s than 3s), plus you also take away the value of his defensive toolkit by limiting him to the perimeter. I think he's more Josh Smith, with even less offensive skill. Problem is Orlando already signed Frye to play PF and it also may be Tobias Harris' best position as well.

Even though it looks like he wears blocks for shoes, I think Gordon's greatest asset is his perimeter defense. He seems to provide the greatest impact when he's defending perimeter players and causing havoc with his help defense.

I'm not questioning his athleticism. I think he's got the athleticism to defend all over the court, but the skill level is woeful for a SF. I don't see how it works offensively, You already got non-shooters everywhere but Frye and maybe Oladipo. The good thing about Gordon is that he measured out well for a PF in terms of length. That's where his future is and where his skillset won't be a complete drag on the offense. Defensively, at the moment his best asset may be his ability to fly around on the perimeter and cause havoc... however as he grows into his frame over the next few years, I would expect him to become more impactful as an active big that excels at closing off driving lanes and challenging shots in the paint.

[Kabookalu]

I'm not questioning his athleticism. I think he's got the athleticism to defend all over the court, but the skill level is woeful for a SF. I don't see how it works offensively, You already got non-shooters everywhere but Frye and maybe Oladipo. The good thing about Gordon is that he measured out well for a PF in terms of length. That's where his future is and where his skillset won't be a complete drag on the offense. Defensively, at the moment his best asset may be his ability to fly around on the perimeter and cause havoc... however as he grows into his frame over the next few years, I would expect him to become more impactful as an active big that excels at closing off driving lanes and challenging shots in the paint.

I don't disagree that he's a weird fit at SF because of his shooting and lack of overall scoring skills on the perimeter. He's better as a PF, so I'm befuddled with what the Magic's long term goals for him are. Although I don't think it's absolutely impossible for him to be an SF. He could be more of a SF in the 80's than one in current times, which is why I have him as his absolute best case scenario as Gerald Wallace, if the Magic are insistent of developing him as a SF. He has a nice first step, decent enough handles to get to the bucket, and good strength/athleticism to finish above the rim. He could operate in the mid range and elbow areas rather than beyond the 3 point line, work in the triple threat, and draw fouls or make plays.

For that to work however he needs to work work work work work work work on his jumper.

However I just wouldn't take the chance at that happening and would try developing him at where he's best suited, and that's as a PF imo.

[Prokorov]

He has played 2 pre-season NBA games, I am not sure what you meant by 0 games.
His passing is actually pretty good but I am not sure you know this since you seem to not be aware that the pre-season has started.
He is a legit point guard and the offense comes alive with his court presence.
Only thing you got right was his shooting, actually it's his outside shooting.
Anyway, your post is very spotty. I would watch a few games or read about them before making further statements.

really? preseason?

ive seen him play in college. i think thats a better gauge then meaningless preseason games

Ok. So let me get this straight. Pre-season NBA game where the significant number of players are much better than college players is NOT as good as assessing a player than his college games?

yes.... 30 games of competitive college ball is 100 times more meaningful then 2 preseason games where teams dont care about the outcome and are just trying certain things, installing some wrinkles, trying to sort out those last few roster spots... etc.

[Prokorov]

interesting? you defend Gordon (who still doesnt know what his true position will be) but have Payton as a bust when he has already shown to be a very good passer and defender playing PG.

What has payton shown? he has played 0 NBA games. His passing really isnt all that good. He lacks play making ability, shooting ability. I just dont see him ever being a quality starter and getting bounced around a ton.

Gordon might not have a position, but he is explosive and the league has made a transition towards positionless basketball anyhow. im not saying the dude will be an MVP, but i cant see him being a terrible player

im going off of college for both guys. basing anything on preseason is idiotic

are you being serious here? His passing has looked great. his defense is very good too. Shooting, that is an issue with many rookies.

And how many NBA games has Gordon played? so what has he shown? can use it on one but not the exact same argument on the other.

[Austincys21]

Best - Wiggins

Sleeper- Warren or Payton

Bust- Smart

[majortom71]

What has payton shown? he has played 0 NBA games. His passing really isnt all that good. He lacks play making ability, shooting ability. I just dont see him ever being a quality starter and getting bounced around a ton.

Gordon might not have a position, but he is explosive and the league has made a transition towards positionless basketball anyhow. im not saying the dude will be an MVP, but i cant see him being a terrible player

im going off of college for both guys. basing anything on preseason is idiotic

are you being serious here? His passing has looked great. his defense is very good too. Shooting, that is an issue with many rookies.

And how many NBA games has Gordon played? so what has he shown? can use it on one but not the exact same argument on the other.

I disagree with you and your buddy. Made a post explaining it, but it's cool keep failing at arguments.

[MagicStarwipe]

Payton is an excellent passer. I don't know if I'm more impressed with his passing or his defence. Probably his passing because I was already aware that he could defend. He actually has some teammates that aren't completely horrible to pass it to now. He carried the Ragin' Cajuns with every team focusing completely on him and without having a reliable jumpshot and having to guard the best player every night. You'll just have to wait and see when he crushes the soul of your teams starting PG.

[GameOver25]

I'm not questioning his athleticism. I think he's got the athleticism to defend all over the court, but the skill level is woeful for a SF. I don't see how it works offensively, You already got non-shooters everywhere but Frye and maybe Oladipo. The good thing about Gordon is that he measured out well for a PF in terms of length. That's where his future is and where his skillset won't be a complete drag on the offense. Defensively, at the moment his best asset may be his ability to fly around on the perimeter and cause havoc... however as he grows into his frame over the next few years, I would expect him to become more impactful as an active big that excels at closing off driving lanes and challenging shots in the paint.

I don't disagree that he's a weird fit at SF because of his shooting and lack of overall scoring skills on the perimeter. He's better as a PF, so I'm befuddled with what the Magic's long term goals for him are. Although I don't think it's absolutely impossible for him to be an SF. He could be more of a SF in the 80's than one in current times, which is why I have him as his absolute best case scenario as Gerald Wallace, if the Magic are insistent of developing him as a SF. He has a nice first step, decent enough handles to get to the bucket, and good strength/athleticism to finish above the rim. He could operate in the mid range and elbow areas rather than beyond the 3 point line, work in the triple threat, and draw fouls or make plays.

For that to work however he needs to work work work work work work work on his jumper.

However I just wouldn't take the chance at that happening and would try developing him at where he's best suited, and that's as a PF imo.

I think Gordon position will eventually be PF. Frye is holding down the PF spot for now since Gordon is such a raw player and needs to development. He also needs to physically and mentally get used to NBA bigs.