Would you be more or less impressed if Jordan was 6-2 in the finals?

[kbitboc]

This is just ridiculous. If I have an option of 6 golds and 2 silvers vs just 6 golds, I take the 6 golds and 2 silvers every time.

[INKtastic]

The real question the thread is asking is how is the left side better than the right side?

[Jables]

This is just ridiculous. If I have an option of 6 golds and 2 silvers vs just 6 golds, I take the 6 golds and 2 silvers every time.

Pretty much the only team sport are in the Olympics where people care about who finishes 2nd, unless counting spots for Champions League or something like that.

[DJ3thenew23]

Suppose you date a beautiful woman for 5-6 weeks. After its over, your friends want to know if you scored...

Do you want to say you got lucky 6 times....or say you got lucky 6 times and two other times you couldn't get it up?? This is literally the same thing

If you're only getting lucky 6 times in 6 weeks you're doing it wrong

[Aventador]

I think it's not about quantity but quality. For example, Horry making it as many times as he did does not count as much as Durant's making it one time.

Lebron's very first appearance vs the Spurs should not be counted against him. No one expected him to be there, and he just knocked off the pistons singlehandedly. This one ADDS to LeBron's lore.

Lebron choked vs the Mavs, pure and simple. If we're counting, this one REMOVES from Lebron's lore. More was lost than was added by young lebron vs the Spurs imo.

The lost against the spurs as a Heatle was a well contested series. I don't count this one against Lebron. Wade was a dumpster fire missing knees. This is a wash.

The lost against the warriors, saw Lebron lose his #2 and #3 and yet he still made it exciting. I don't know how anyone can count this one against him. This adds to Lebron's lore.


All in all, 3 of the 4 losses are not really a problem for LeBron imo. The biggest one is the choke against the Mavs, and to me, that will always remain the reason why LeBron cannot reach Jordan level for me. If Jordan rounded up 2 other top 15 players in the league, boasted that he would win not 5 not 6 not 7, he would NOT have pussed out like Lebron did against the mavs. Nothing Lebron does from here on out will erase that feeling from my mouth. That's me though, and I understand if someone else disagrees. Lebron can win 8 rings and not lose another finals again, and the that pathetic display against the Mavs will always be a blackmark that will deny him a throne for Greatest of All Time. It's not fair, but when we are discussing GOAT, every inch, every hair, and every detail matters. That's how it goes.

[D.Brasco]

Because 3-0 is better than 3-4 no matter how you try and spin it.

There's no way to spin anything.

Making a finals shouldn't be seen as a strike vs losing in the playoffs which is what you're describing.

Either way when it comes to championships only the final tally should matter. Nobody has ever used the 4 times Magic Johnson lost in the finals as a strike against his legacy because they only pay attention to the 5 rings he actually has.

The whole X out X finals is a meme LeBron haters came up with a few years back.

I'm pretty sure plenty pay attention to magic and birds losses considering some of those Finals losses were against each other in the mids of their 1980s rivalry. Which was in fact a huge deal.

Yeah but if anything that's still used to hype their legacy.

In most bios of Magic it is mentioned he made the finals 9 times in his career as a positive to show his extended dominance. Even for Bird even though he ended up on the short stick of rings to Magic him making those epic finals matches still adds to his legacy vs if he never made it there at all.

It only became a negative to lose in the finals vs the playoffs the last few years for LeBron.

[OdomFan]

The real question the thread is asking is how is the left side better than the right side?

The number 1 flaw here is amount of games. There's nothing wrong with the fact that Jordan played College basketball rather than going straight to the NBA nor the fact that he chose to go out on top each time his teams completed the 3 peat regardless of why he chose to do it.

and as far Lebron being in the Finals more times then Jordan goes thats no accomplishment either considering the goal is to actually close out the series which is something Lebron and his team failed to do not once, not twice but 3 times. So with that said shame on whoever created that silly image. Lebron fans will create anything to try to keep their hero looking good.

[Beffiosa]

Suppose you date a beautiful woman for 5-6 weeks. After its over, your friends want to know if you scored...

Do you want to say you got lucky 6 times....or say you got lucky 6 times and two other times you couldn't get it up?? This is literally the same thing

Does the other ten years you fail to even get dates count?

[OdomFan]

There's no way to spin anything.

Making a finals shouldn't be seen as a strike vs losing in the playoffs which is what you're describing.

Either way when it comes to championships only the final tally should matter. Nobody has ever used the 4 times Magic Johnson lost in the finals as a strike against his legacy because they only pay attention to the 5 rings he actually has.

The whole X out X finals is a meme LeBron haters came up with a few years back.

I'm pretty sure plenty pay attention to magic and birds losses considering some of those Finals losses were against each other in the mids of their 1980s rivalry. Which was in fact a huge deal.

Yeah but if anything that's still used to hype their legacy.

In most bios of Magic it is mentioned he made the finals 9 times in his career as a positive to show his extended dominance. Even for Bird even though he ended up on the short stick of rings to Magic him making those epic finals matches still adds to his legacy vs if he never made it there at all.

It only became a negative to lose in the finals vs the playoffs the last few years for LeBron.

None of what you said here changes the fact that the losses matter. Ask Larry bird about trips to the finals being an accomplishment and i guarantee you he'd say the samething.

Everybody wants to win the championship and when they don't its a tough pill to swallow. So yeah..this whole adding up the trips to the finals thing is nothing more then something fans came up with.

[ChartFiction]

Easily less impressed if he was 6-2.

Jordan being 6-0 can tell you a number of things. One, he never choked away a series. Two, when he got to the finals and won, he was definitively the best team in the league. There's no question of an easy ride to the finals and chances at rings. When he got his opportunity to win a ring in the finals, there was nothing you could say to diminish that he deserved to be there because he not only led the best team in his conference, he led the best team in either conference.

[Beffiosa]

The real question the thread is asking is how is the left side better than the right side?

The number 1 flaw here is amount of games. There's nothing wrong with the fact that Jordan played College basketball rather than going straight to the NBA nor the fact that he chose to go out on top each time his teams completed the 3 peat regardless of why he chose to do it.

and as far Lebron being in the Finals more times then Jordan goes thats no accomplishment either considering the goal is to actually close out the series which is something Lebron and his team failed to do not once, not twice but 3 times. So with that said shame on whoever created that silly image. Lebron fans will create anything to try to keep their hero looking good.

Where does Pippen fit in the conversation? Jordan was 1-9 in the playoffs without Pippen. Jordan retired after a 57 win season and the following year the Bulls started 5-7 with Pippen missing the fisrt 12 games of the season. Pippen came back and lead his team to 55 wins and was 3rd in MVP. They were also a bad call from a chance of getting the the NBA finals without Jordan. Not trying to discredit Jordan, but it seem like Pippen doesn't get the credit he deserves for Bulls success.

[INKtastic]

Easily less impressed if he was 6-2.

Jordan being 6-0 can tell you a number of things. One, he never choked away a series. Two, when he got to the finals and won, he was definitively the best team in the league. There's no question of an easy ride to the finals and chances at rings. When he got his opportunity to win a ring in the finals, there was nothing you could say to diminish that he deserved to be there because he not only led the best team in his conference, he led the best team in either conference.

He certainly choked away the series in 1995.

[Catchall]

Okay, so if Lebron goes on a tear and leads a team to 3 more chips, he'll catch Jordan.

[Patches Perry]

Jordan fans really do their guy a disservice when they move the goalposts so fervently.

Jordan played 15 seasons and won a championship in 6 of them. LeBron has 3 in 14. All of this selective these seasons don't count and losing in these rounds don't count. With JUST THE FACTS, Jordan still was pretty remarkable.

The frequent moving of goalposts just make you seem worried and like you're protecting turf.

[INKtastic]

The real question the thread is asking is how is the left side better than the right side?

The number 1 flaw here is amount of games. There's nothing wrong with the fact that Jordan played College basketball rather than going straight to the NBA nor the fact that he chose to go out on top each time his teams completed the 3 peat regardless of why he chose to do it.

and as far Lebron being in the Finals more times then Jordan goes thats no accomplishment either considering the goal is to actually close out the series which is something Lebron and his team failed to do not once, not twice but 3 times. So with that said shame on whoever created that silly image. Lebron fans will create anything to try to keep their hero looking good.

I'm actually a fan of both players.

I'm also a fan of logic. It's illogical to think losing before the finals is somehow better than losing in the finals.

[Catchall]

This is just ridiculous. If I have an option of 6 golds and 2 silvers vs just 6 golds, I take the 6 golds and 2 silvers every time.

Yeah, the NBA doesn't actually give out silver medals.

[INKtastic]

This is just ridiculous. If I have an option of 6 golds and 2 silvers vs just 6 golds, I take the 6 golds and 2 silvers every time.

Yeah, the NBA doesn't actually give out silver medals.

They do actually give out conference championship trophies and banners.

[D.Brasco]

I'm pretty sure plenty pay attention to magic and birds losses considering some of those Finals losses were against each other in the mids of their 1980s rivalry. Which was in fact a huge deal.

Yeah but if anything that's still used to hype their legacy.

In most bios of Magic it is mentioned he made the finals 9 times in his career as a positive to show his extended dominance. Even for Bird even though he ended up on the short stick of rings to Magic him making those epic finals matches still adds to his legacy vs if he never made it there at all.

It only became a negative to lose in the finals vs the playoffs the last few years for LeBron.

None of what you said here changes the fact that the losses matter. Ask Larry bird about trips to the finals being an accomplishment and i guarantee you he'd say the samething.

Everybody wants to win the championship and when they don't its a tough pill to swallow. So yeah..this whole adding up the trips to the finals thing is nothing more then something fans came up with.

Ask Larry if he'd rather have not made it to the finals at all and just lost in the eastern conference?

Whether you consider finals appearances an achievement or not, losing in the finals is not a bigger negative in any way than losing in the playoffs.

This whole started as a response to some one posting 3-0 was better than 3-4.

[mtron929]

No, my logic says that Iguodala had a better WCSF than Russell Westbrook, which is absolutely true. I said nothing about the season as a whole. Read more carefully before you reply next time.

What are you talking about? This whole thread is about evaluating careers as a whole. And you replied to my post first where I talked about how 3-3 can be greater than 3-4 upon evaluating Lebron's career as a whole and when it comes to legacy. You are the one who is confused about the proper context of this argument.

For 3-4 to be worse than 3-3 for LeBron (or for anyone for that matter), it would have to necessarily be true that his performance in that 7th Finals is worse than not making the Finals and giving NO performance. I'm telling you that's plainly ridiculous.

Bad performance > No performance

If that weren't absolutely true, I could argue that I have had a better NBA career than some end of the bench scrub, because my lack of NBA play somehow trumps his bad NBA play.

I don't think you are understanding the concept of averages when it comes to evaluating a player. When we evaluate some player X, we take into account accumulated stats as well as averaged stats. Because of the latter, it is not necessarily true that playing more games is necessarily better than playing less games as bad performance can hurt your average stats and thus negatively affect your legacy. Accordingly, it doesn't make sense to compare just the bad performance and no performance.

[mtron929]

Later on, when we evaluate Lebron's 2017 season as a whole, we will take into account his regular season numbers and his playoff numbers and grade him accordingly. Just because he played in the finals, that does not mean that his 2017 season as a whole would be automatically viewed as greater than if he had not played in the finals due to being eliminated earlier on. For example, in the extreme case, let's say Lebron James misses every shot he takes in the Finals and averages 0 points on 0/80 shooting? Would it still be the case that Lebron's legacy is enhanced because he made the finals? Of course not. Context matters.

This is absolutely ridiculous. Can't have him winning the conference finals because someone thinks, hey, maybe he'll go 0-80 shooting in the finals.

He wasn't good enough to beat the Pistons 2 years. he made the critical turnover to lose against the Magic one year. Make the plays to win two of those 3 times and come up short in the finals. That has to be better than not winning those series.

I am not sure what your point is. With regards to Lebron, the problem isn't the number of losses per se. It is how you perform during the losses that matter. With regards to Lebron, 3 of his final performances were perfectly great enough that it doesn't hurt his legacy. It is his 2011 performance that hurts his legacy. So if were being picky, if somehow his Miami 2011 team was eliminated earlier due to him being injured, it would have been better for his legacy as well as his GOAT rankings.