How good is Jokic? [Poll added]

[Atmanne]

I think KAT's stamina and (better) ability to stay out of foul trouble is a pretty significant advantage. Will be interesting to see how many minutes Jokic can play in the playoffs this year if they make it. I'm sure KAT will be around 39.

So while per minute Jokic might always be the better offensive player, I suspect Towns will have more value with stamina/durability/defensive upside.

[Illmatic12]

He needs to start playing some defense before we start talking about GOAT.

His defense is not bad, it's not even average. It is good. Jokic is NOT a defensive liability, far from it.

It is not very good or Elite like some other bigs have shown though. So, he has to work on it. Players tend to get better at the things they do the best, simply because those are also the things they do the most. But working on your personal weaknesses is simply a matter of practice and determination.

Luckily, a good chunk of the defensive attributives a player may have stems from BB IQ (which is something that he has in spades). And another big part is simply the will to defend. So it is certainly something that a young player like him can address.

For a big man, yes Jokic's defense is terrible. He's near the bottom of the league in rim protection numbers and the Nuggets were historically awful defensively with Jokic on the floor, there's no way he doesn't have culpability in that.

[Kabookalu]

Man I think a lot of you guys are sleeping on KAT. I thought his defense would be better but to be honest last season could just be a write off for the entire team. Thibs is a defensive specialist but his intense 8 hour a day practices and exhausting attention to detail could just not be for everyone, at first, especially for the young pups. Seems like the only types of players that are receptive to it well initially are veterans. He was showing a ton of defensive promise in his rookie year.

Who is sleeping on kat? Lots of praise for him in this thread

Saw some people saying he'll just be an empty stats no defense playing star.

[Nuggets_Talk]

Man I think a lot of you guys are sleeping on KAT. I thought his defense would be better but to be honest last season could just be a write off for the entire team. Thibs is a defensive specialist but his intense 8 hour a day practices and exhausting attention to detail could just not be for everyone, at first, especially for the young pups. Seems like the only types of players that are receptive to it well initially are veterans. He was showing a ton of defensive promise in his rookie year.

Who is sleeping on kat? Lots of praise for him in this thread

Saw some people saying he'll just be an empty stats no defense playing star.

thats preposterous

[nomansland]

Ok, if you think Jokic is a top 10 player I'm calling you out. Are you really going to think about it?

There is an argument that he is a top 10 player and was clearly the best young big in the league last year, do you have something saying he wasn't?

As for best young big, that is a very limited group with terms that can be argued about for days. I am not interested in arguments where the goalpost is moved so lets focus on the actual argument of top 10 player or not. I can say that he did not lift his team into the playoffs as people predicted he would last year. Funny enough he got outplayed head to head in his loss to the team that traded for the teammate that he did not get along with. If you are tempted to blame his supporting cast remember that players like Wesbrook, James, and Lillard have all willed teams with not much supporting cast into the playoffs.

I will give you a list of players in no given order. Please tell me that you can not find 10 players on the list better than Jokic right now. Note that there are many very good players not on the list because I did not think of them.

K Durant
R. Westbrook
L. James
J. Harden
A. Davis
K. Leonard
S. Curry
K. Irving
D. Lillard
I. Thomas
P. George
J. Wall
G. Antetokounmpo
K. Thompson
D. Booker
D. DeRozan
B. Griffin
K. Porzingis
K. Towns
D. Green

Booker, Griffin, Porzingis, Thompson are all arguable. Booker especially. Good player but a volume scorer that doesn't defend and doesn't make his teammates better anywhere near the way Jokic does.

[nomansland]

How can people accurately judge his defense when the team trotted out a defensive sieve like Jameer Nelson for major minutes?? It didn't help anything.

I'm infatuated by Jokic and his development and I relish the chance to watch an elite passing big man because I missed out on watching guys like Sabonis and only saw the end of Divac's prime. I watched more Denver games last year than I did in the last decade combined

Yeah Denver having trouble defending the perimeter certainly didn't help. It put Jokic in a lot of bad spots. He was also in foul trouble a lot so he had to choose between risking the foul or being a matador in the paint. Thats on the coaches but it's also smarter to keep him in the game even if it makes him look like a worse defender than he is or could be.

[PhillySixers22]

Short answer to the title question is incredibly good. Granted I haven't seen nearly as much as Nuggets fans have, but based on the limited games I have seen combined with his elite offensive impact and numbers I have a hard time seeing him outside of the top 15 players this coming season with a clear shot at top ten.

His raw numbers for the season are skewed by the start and limited minutes, making him appear on the surface as lesser than many others like KAT for example. Once you zero in on certain context his impact is more apparent. Denver had the league's best offense after inserting Jokic into the starting lineup for example. This is a 20-21 year old sophomore surrounded by numerous young players and solid, not spectacular vets having that level impact. Obviously it was to a greater degree, but let's not forget Steve Nash took home two MVP's for his ability to impact an offense this way. The guy is money from anywhere inside the arc and most likely the best passer at his position ever at his age.

His only true flaw is defensively, not in the sense that he's a poor defender, because he's not, but in that he'll never anchor a top defense or excel as a rim protector, which is admittedly an important quality for a center. Overall as a prospect though it's hard to argue anyone as obviously more talented. Embiid would be the closest but his health concerns make Jokic the superior prospect until proven otherwise.

[Spintown]

wow this poll is a joke(ic)

[Baseline Runner]

My opinion of the Towns vs Jokic debate...

I always thought Towns was clearly better, but I can see how Jokic is killing him on actual individual impact of winning games at the moment.

With that said Jokic is clearly better "Right Now". But in the future I still expect Towns to become better if not way better than Jokic.

The reason is I expect towns to be a dominant 2 way player. There's no reason for him not to become a great or elite defender in this league. Jokic doesn't have that type of potential.

For that reason I think Towns will be the better of the 2, but at the moment Jokic's impact on a team winning far outweighs Towns until he starts playing D.

D is not something you start playing, either you have it or you don't. All of the great defensive centers, Olajuwon, Robinson, Ewing, Gilmore, Mutombo, Mourning, Chandler, etc., made a big defensive impact their first years in the league. Towns strikes me as a Moses Malone type center, a guy who puts up big numbers on the offensive end but doesn't have the defensive ability.

Jokic is a making a good defensive impact because he has a big 7'3" body and he positions himself well. A guy that big can add a lot to defense if he is good at positioning and anticipation, even if he is slow and not a good shot blocker. Zydrunas Ilgauskus for example was like that and the Cavs were one of the best defensive teams in the league when him and Lebron were playing together.

[Soupman]

KEEP HIM! Keep him from going to the Lakers or the Spurs

Supermax him when he's eligible.

[ChuckyFE]

I have never heard of a single person refer to Jock Itch as being a good thing.

[magnumt]

• Porzingis (BPG & Perimeter edge)
• Jokic (Passing edge(
• KAT (Rebounding & Post Scoring edge)

--Mags

[Ponchos]

Love Jokic, reminds me of Webber when he passes.

He will be a top 15 player, but his defensive limitations will stop him from ever being a legit MVP candidate.

Well, you should be right but I have to disagree - not with your assessment of Jokic - but with your assumption that MVP has anything to do with defense. Not in the modern NBA it doesn't.

It does when you're a C.

[nomansland]

My opinion of the Towns vs Jokic debate...

I always thought Towns was clearly better, but I can see how Jokic is killing him on actual individual impact of winning games at the moment.

With that said Jokic is clearly better "Right Now". But in the future I still expect Towns to become better if not way better than Jokic.

The reason is I expect towns to be a dominant 2 way player. There's no reason for him not to become a great or elite defender in this league. Jokic doesn't have that type of potential.

For that reason I think Towns will be the better of the 2, but at the moment Jokic's impact on a team winning far outweighs Towns until he starts playing D.

D is not something you start playing, either you have it or you don't. All of the great defensive centers, Olajuwon, Robinson, Ewing, Gilmore, Mutombo, Mourning, Chandler, etc., made a big defensive impact their first years in the league. Towns strikes me as a Moses Malone type center, a guy who puts up big numbers on the offensive end but doesn't have the defensive ability.

Jokic is a making a good defensive impact because he has a big 7'3" body and he positions himself well. A guy that big can add a lot to defense if he is good at positioning and anticipation, even if he is slow and not a good shot blocker. Zydrunas Ilgauskus for example was like that and the Cavs were one of the best defensive teams in the league when him and Lebron were playing together.

.

Jokic is 6'11". He has good defensive instincts, great footwork and a solid IQ. So while he'll never be Duncan level on D he can still improve a lot. Plus he should get a lot stronger over the next 2-3 years.
,

[NuggetsWY]

Love Jokic, reminds me of Webber when he passes.

He will be a top 15 player, but his defensive limitations will stop him from ever being a legit MVP candidate.

Well, you should be right but I have to disagree - not with your assessment of Jokic - but with your assumption that MVP has anything to do with defense. Not in the modern NBA it doesn't.

It does when you're a C.

In the past maybe - probably. These days? I'm not so sure.

[NuggetsWY]

Can we get a poll option for "I want KAT & Jokic"?

[Chi]

My opinion of the Towns vs Jokic debate...

I always thought Towns was clearly better, but I can see how Jokic is killing him on actual individual impact of winning games at the moment.

With that said Jokic is clearly better "Right Now". But in the future I still expect Towns to become better if not way better than Jokic.

The reason is I expect towns to be a dominant 2 way player. There's no reason for him not to become a great or elite defender in this league. Jokic doesn't have that type of potential.

For that reason I think Towns will be the better of the 2, but at the moment Jokic's impact on a team winning far outweighs Towns until he starts playing D.

D is not something you start playing, either you have it or you don't. All of the great defensive centers, Olajuwon, Robinson, Ewing, Gilmore, Mutombo, Mourning, Chandler, etc., made a big defensive impact their first years in the league. Towns strikes me as a Moses Malone type center, a guy who puts up big numbers on the offensive end but doesn't have the defensive ability.

Jokic is a making a good defensive impact because he has a big 7'3" body and he positions himself well. A guy that big can add a lot to defense if he is good at positioning and anticipation, even if he is slow and not a good shot blocker. Zydrunas Ilgauskus for example was like that and the Cavs were one of the best defensive teams in the league when him and Lebron were playing together.

If you're right about Towns then he's trash and never will get any better than trash...

If he doesn't become a great defender then what on earth does he have to look forward to? He's already a monster at everything else.

Post game - Check
Jump shot - Check
3pt range - Check
Handles - Passing - Rebounding - Check Check Check

He's the total package offensively and it hasn't equated to winning. If he doesn't pick up the defense he'll never be anything in this league. He's literally the definition of empty stats at the moment.

But, I contribute that to him just being young. IMO you are absolutely wrong and he will become a great defender because he's physically built for it and he has the hunger and drive to get there because that's what it takes for him to be truly Great and Win...

[akhan786]

Jokic might be the first player in a long, long time that is just pure untapped potential. He reminds me of Steph Curry in the sense that he's such an outlier in terms of NBA history that putting a ceiling on him at this point is just a bad bet. We've seen a big man in his prime with this type of playmaking vision exactly once, in the form of Bill Walton, who looked like he was ready to lead a dynasty in a league with prime Kareem if injuries didn't ruin him. We missed out on prime Sabonis, but Jokic seems like the continuation of that lineage.

His defense will be a problem. But he looks to be the type of talent that could compete for multiple MVPs if he's healthy, and the offensive ceiling of a team with lots of perimeter shooting surrounding a high post playmaker is as yet untapped, but based on what we see from peak Garnett and Draymond the future looks damn bright.

I think it will be interesting to see if Ball, Simmons, and Jokic all reach their ceilings. Could usher in the next stylistic change in the NBA as Curry and GSW just did with the 3 ball.

[Kalela]

Wow @ the individuals who think Jokic is better than Embiid. If Embiid is healthy he is damn near the most impactful player in the league.

[Yuri Vaultin]

Wow @ the individuals who think Jokic is better than Embiid. If Embiid is healthy he is damn near the most impactful player in the league.

Absolutely...

But his health is a massive part of who he has been as a basketball player. To put things into perspective Oden had played more games this far into his career.