Pippen on First Take about Jordan vs Lebron

[so_bored]

A washed up 40 year old Jordan then proceeds to re enters the league with the new rule changes and averages over 20 PPG including multiple 40+ point games

Teams didn't use it right away. It was eased in over time

Can you name a team that plays zone defense? I've literally never seen a team today do so

The guy is trying to argue with a 15 year old article that goes over 15 year old rule just because it fits his agenda. lol

[Ainosterhaspie]

Yes. I don't find averaging what 35 on below 40% shooting all that impressive in 2015 vs GS

The spin that was put on 2015 was amazing. We saw Lebron in the Finals without all-star offensive options against a good team, like in 2007, and his efficiency took an insane dive. I agree winning rings is a team accomplishment; there was no way the Cavs were pulling that off. But instead of that series being used as insight into the weaknesses of James' game, it's hailed as the great heroic performances of his career.

The next year, when the Cavs come back from 3-1 with Kyrie dropping historic scoring nights alongside him (two teammates with 40+ pts in the finals), the same "rings are a team accomplishment" folks idolize Lebron for "beating a 73-9 team down 3-1."

Could not agree more. It's what LeBron fans do though. When the Cavs lose, "LeBron needs more help". When he gets help from Kyrie and win, "LeBron is a god"

He led all players in the five major statistical categories, played great defense including perhaps a series saving block and was generally doing every thing a player could possibly do. If he'd been just a hair less than he was, they don't win. That team he took down, with help from his teammates obviously, had the greatest regular season ever. That was an incredible, unprecedented performance. And yes, Kyrie was incredible in that series too. That's what it takes to beat an all time great team. But having a great teammate play great doesn't take away from what LeBron did.

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[Boarder Patrol]

LeBron's better IMO. Greater longevity already and he probably has at least 4 really good years left the way things look now. Bigger, stronger, better passer and rebounder. Both are elite defenders but LeBron in his prime really was capable of guarding 1-5, MJ less so with the giants of his era. LeBron's slacked off on D the last few years but Jordan did the exact same thing.

MJ's big claim over LeBron is his scoring but for his career he averaged 30.1 points on 22.9 on shots. LeBron's at 27.2 on 19.6 shots. Does anyone really think LeBron couldn't average 2.9 more points on 3.4 more shots? He'd get there even if he took those shots on significantly worse efficiency than where he's been for his career. He's statistically a lot better at the rim and better from 3, MJ has the edge in the mid range and on free throws. Which types of shots are most important again...? (Post ups I honestly have no clue who you'd call better).

He'll probably end his career with more points, rebounds and assists, on a higher career FG% and 3P%, with arguably better defense. That's a strong case to make for Bron.

--

MJ's got the rings, his finals record is amazing and contributes a lot to his lure. But rings are not a good way of comparing 2 players. There's way too many variables surrounding every series to actually tell if LeBron or Jordan were the difference maker (to tell if one of them won a series where there the other wouldn't). Replace MJ with LeBron on any of those 6 Bulls teams and I think he wins all 6. Replace MJ with LeBron on any of his title teams and I think they probably win in '11 but lose in '16 and maybe '13. It's tough to tell, but overall just not a smart way of comparing 2 guys when you have an entire body of work from each of them to look at.

There's also recency bias - we remember James' disappointing 4th quarters, times he was rattled, etc. because it's fresh in our minds and we talk about him on the internet every day. We don't for Jordan because 20 years has allowed us to remember the parts we want to remember. He got phased too. Shot poorly in some 4th quarters too. Did he ever struggle as much as Bron did in, say, 2011? Probably not but are we evaluating their whole careers here or cherry picking individual series we want to make guys look bad?

[so_bored]

Lebron in Finals: 18 wins 27 losses
Jordan in Finals: 24 wins 11 losses

Just saying

[711takeover]

Per game stats are useless cross era. And PER is a rather dated and poor stats as well. We can talk WS, but I'm not sure digging in is going to conclude what you want it to.

So what stat do you want me to look at?

Look at WS, look at VORP. Look at BPM and WS/48. Look at the metrics relative to peers. Look at career totals. Look at their playoff numbers. use PER with context and understand why it favors jordan.

Spend a few hours and if you can't see why there's a number's case for Lebron, make a post and ask people to help you. There's clearly a case to be made here, even if I personally would still rank MJ ahead of Lebron at this point. But no reasonable person would argue there's no stats case for Lebron, that's just not true.

Did I ever say there is no stats case for LeBron? I said that people saying LeBron clearly has better stats as the argument for why he's better than MJ isn't necessarily true. The stats are pretty close. LeBron in no way definitively had better career stats

[Ainosterhaspie]

A washed up 40 year old Jordan then proceeds to re enters the league with the new rule changes and averages over 20 PPG including multiple 40+ point games

Teams didn't use it right away. It was eased in over time

Can you name a team that plays zone defense? I've literally never seen a team today do so

They don't play zone per say, but they do things that were illegal previously. It's a hybrid man and zone system based on the situation and players involved.

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[711takeover]

Lebron in Finals: 18 wins 27 losses
Jordan in Finals: 24 wins 11 losses

Just saying

Nah apparently you can't compare rings or finals stats according to LeBron fans. It's just not fair I guess

[Louie_Ruckuz]

Lebron in Finals: 18 wins 27 losses
Jordan in Finals: 24 wins 11 losses

Just saying

Nah apparently you can't compare rings or finals stats according to LeBron fans. It's just not fair I guess

3 out of 8 I guess is better than 6 out of 6

"but he went to 8 finals thouh" - Lebron fans logic

[smartyz456]

lebron hasnt even surpassed kobe

what makes anyone think that he can surpass jordan?

[Ainosterhaspie]

Teams didn't use it right away. It was eased in over time

Can you name a team that plays zone defense? I've literally never seen a team today do so

They don't play zone per say, but they do things that were illegal previously. It's a hybrid man and zone system based on the situation and players involved.

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LeBron has won ten games and one series in the playoffs against 65+ win teams. Jordan had zero games won against 65+ win teams. LeBron has generally faced better competition in the finals. That's why the record isn't as pristine.

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[dhsilv2]

So what stat do you want me to look at?

Look at WS, look at VORP. Look at BPM and WS/48. Look at the metrics relative to peers. Look at career totals. Look at their playoff numbers. use PER with context and understand why it favors jordan.

Spend a few hours and if you can't see why there's a number's case for Lebron, make a post and ask people to help you. There's clearly a case to be made here, even if I personally would still rank MJ ahead of Lebron at this point. But no reasonable person would argue there's no stats case for Lebron, that's just not true.

Did I ever say there is no stats case for LeBron? I said that people saying LeBron clearly has better stats as the argument for why he's better than MJ isn't necessarily true. The stats are pretty close. LeBron in no way definitively had better career stats

Fair enough. My issue was more the rather light and poorly explained reason why the stats were not favoring lebron. Definitively better looking at different eras generally requires a huge gap which isn't here yet.

[Yoshun]

It's an interesting debate with no clear winner in either direction. I have to say though, MJ just seemed to be a different animal in the playoffs. As long as he was on the floor, you just never felt like the Bulls were going to lose, even when they were actually losing.

[The4thHorseman]

A washed up 40 year old Jordan then proceeds to re enters the league with the new rule changes and averages over 20 PPG including multiple 40+ point games

Teams didn't use it right away. It was eased in over time

Can you name a team that plays zone defense? I've literally never seen a team today do so

Not all teams use it. Depends on the match-up etc...

Dallas has used it, Detroit, Cavs when Blatt was there. It's not a constant D but used when thought to be an advantage.

[zimpy27]

Do you ever notice that posters that continually splatter a thread with their thoughts look completely crazed and by association their opinion just looks more and more irrational and wrong?

[Lovethisgamegr]

Lebron in Finals: 18 wins 27 losses
Jordan in Finals: 24 wins 11 losses

Just saying

Nah apparently you can't compare rings or finals stats according to LeBron fans. It's just not fair I guess

Here we go again,
11/13.Russell is the GOAT but you can't compare rings or finals stats according to MJ's fans.It's just not fair

[crazy_me_87]

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LeBron has won ten games and one series in the playoffs against 65+ win teams. Jordan had zero games won against 65+ win teams. LeBron has generally faced better competition in the finals. That's why the record isn't as pristine.

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True. While its not MJs fault because you play who is in front of you... his 6/6 gets less "God Like" when you consider who he beat..

MJ:

1991: An Aging Lakers Team with a 22 yo Vlade Divac beeing their 2nd best Player in the Series. Worthy was hobbled and Big Game James ironically missed Game 5. Still propably the most impressive Team on paper

1992: One Man Show Portland. Nothing special at all. Clyde and beyond that not much

1993: Barkley and Kenny where a great Duo.. they played next to no defense though much like the Suns around 2005

1996: Decent but not amazing. Payton was great and Kemp had his best year.

1997 and 1998: Stockalone where great as usual. Good Coaching.

I count 7 Hall of Famers(not counting end of Bench guys) so Hofmers who still where able to play like it. Only 2 of 6 Teams had more than 1 Hofmer.

Lebron:

2007: Spurs: Manu, Parker, Duncan. Oh and Pop

2011: Dirk and Kidd

2012: KD,Westbrook and Harden(if you have to count him as half a HOFmer)

2013: Spurs again

2014: Spurs again this time with Kahwi

2015 + 2016 GSW with Curry,Klay,Draymond

2017: Add KD to GSW

I count 12 Hofmers with no Team less than two Hofmers(or assumed HOFmers in the case of the guys still playing)

Lebron has never faced only 1 Hofmer.. let that sink in... MJ did 4 Times.
Not taking anything away from MJ.. as i said above.. not his fault. But especially the 2013 and 14 Spurs and GSW 15 onwards are on a Level MJ never had to face. He himself was on the Historical Team with more talent.. he did not have to beat it.

[axeman23]

The numbers argument is always laughable. The best of the best players will always put up numbers across the board if that’s what their role is.

Lebron puts up his loaded box score numbers because he has the ball in his hands every possession & he basically runs a drive & kick system to run his numbers up.

When MJ was placed in a similar role in the late 80s, he put up 33/8/8. MJ put up monster box score numbers before Phil Jackson came in & installed a system. Even Kobe put up monster assist stats when he played a similar style as Lebron.

We just saw Westbrook & Harden put up monster stats across the board last season because they played that “archangel” offense Lebron runs.

Let’s not act like MJ doesn’t have crazy numbers himself when compared to Lebron.

Fact of the matter is, Lebron will always get his numbers because he is the system on his teams. I guarantee if he actually stopped trying to be the coach & GM on his teams, he would’ve won more than the 3 titles he had to squeeze out.

No MJ propogator uses the ring argument because it’s lazy. Although I see a lot of Lebron fans trying to use that strawman.

Lebron’s GOAT argument is built on excuses.

Thank you so much. When Doug Collins moved MJ to point, he fired off 10 triple doubles in 11 games. 7 in a row. Those numbers are about role, system, and teambuilding. We've seen increasing evidence that more and more players are capable of the "all-around game". It's especially exploitable with the spacing of today.

The argument about illegal defenses is a respectable one. One poster said you could space out with no 3pt shooters. But the difference is now if the ballhandler draws help and kicks out, all those dudes on the perimeter are elite 3pt shooters, so that's easily a way more potent offense than anything in the 90's.

And how many rings did "walking triple-double Jordan" win under Doug Collins? That's what Jordan fans like to say about Lebron's number in finals like last year, when his TEAM was just over-matched? Or young Lebron from his first stint in Cleveland?

[Barnzy]

Lebron in Finals: 18 wins 27 losses
Jordan in Finals: 24 wins 11 losses

Just saying

Compare the point differential in Jordan’s finals opponents.

There’s a great graphic around I can’t find that illustrates it.

Basically LeBron has played historically a few of the best teams to ever play. The worst team he played was nearly the equal of the best team Jordan faced.

Edit: here you go

[711takeover]

Can you name a team that plays zone defense? I've literally never seen a team today do so

They don't play zone per say, but they do things that were illegal previously. It's a hybrid man and zone system based on the situation and players involved.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

LeBron has won ten games and one series in the playoffs against 65+ win teams. Jordan had zero games won against 65+ win teams. LeBron has generally faced better competition in the finals. That's why the record isn't as pristine.

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Please... you really think MJ and the bulls are losing to that Mavs team?

[711takeover]

Lebron in Finals: 18 wins 27 losses
Jordan in Finals: 24 wins 11 losses

Just saying

Nah apparently you can't compare rings or finals stats according to LeBron fans. It's just not fair I guess

Here we go again,
11/13.Russell is the GOAT but you can't compare rings or finals stats according to MJ's fans.It's just not fair

Actually MJ fans say you can. Russell has the most rings... doesn't mean he's better. Horry has 7 - doesn't mean he's superior to Kobe Lebron or MJ. The difference is being 6-0 vs 3-5 when comparing two top players definitely is significant enough to mention, chief.