Statistical proof of LeBron’s HORRIFIC defense

[DarthTeufel]

This is the reason LeBron is in reality not a top 5 player anymore despite the continued jerk circles around him to this day and the reason I don't think the Lakers are a serious threat to win the title. The West goes through the Warriors and Clippers now. 3rd best team in the State.

[Benedict_Boozer]

This thread is really interesting in highlighting how strong human bias is. People will ignore objective reality to fit a narrative in their mind. Crazy.


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[RakimAbdulJabar]

In this thread: Actual footage of Lebron not making any effort on defense is ignored because herpy derpy youtube is not legit derpy

Stats that have no context: This is fine

Reading: Non existent

For the 100th time, most posters don't seem to be questioning whether Lebron is capable of playing good defense, they are questioning his effort, and the eye test is literally the ONLY way you can judge effort, stats aren't going to show you if a guy hustled on a play.

But hey, some people have no shame, when you go from being a Cavs fan to a Raptors fan to a Clippers fan in the space of 3 years...

[Dupp]

Lifelong

[triple_threat]

Those metrics are invalid. Sure he’s still good when he actually guards someone, but he is only actually guarding someone about 1/5 possessions, and all the stats you cherry picked don’t account for that.

If lebron man scores on a spot up and lebron is sitting in the paint i am sure the spot up stats accounts for that. You are reaching.

[Damo25]

Lebron hasn’t played much defense for a few years, it’s only when he is switched on that he contributes on that end

[NbaAllDay]

So typical to see certain people not willing to accept YouTube, as if that footage has been made up.

It’s almost as if they’re incapable of understanding what they’re watching and definitely incapable of reading.

Posters are being VERY clear in this thread by repeatedly saying it’s an issue of effort that’s being questioned, yet even with numerous examples of terrible lack of effort, a few just want to stick their head in the sand and deny it

Then again certain posters change their favourite team almost every season so it’s hard to take their opinion seriously

Simple question to hopefully end my participation in this pointless back and forth;

Do you think Lebrons effort on defense is acceptable?

The issue you have with using youtube as an example is you are collecting maybe 50, or even 100 possession of data, extrapolating that from 1000s and 1000s of possessions, and making a conclusive analysis of his defensive game.

If you can't see why you are being mocked for that, then keep on keeping on.

You also mentioned 'effort'. No one here has said he puts in an elite level effort. Again though, you are saying because he doesn't give effort all of the time, he is a bad defender. It's a lazy narrative to push. There is a lot more to it. You are ignoring the data in favour of your own personal opinion.

[NbaAllDay]

These stats are facts when taking into account LeBron in defensive situations. They are also cherry-picked specific situations. They're also an example of how stats can be used to tell lies.

LeBron is a talented defender when he wants to be, I'm not arguing that even a little bit.

What I've bolded shows him in situations where he's already back on defense. What LeBron has done a significant (noticable) percentage of the time is not get back on defense at all. These numbers don't talk about transition defense at all, which is LeBron's achilles heal in terms of effort. Sure he'll get a chase down block in a playoff game here and there. But if it's the regular season, especially the first 2/3 of the season, you can't rely on him to be present defensively, especially in transition.

Additionally, talking the numbers above, when he IS back and set on defense, 20%, 27%, 30%, and 43% aren't as impressive as you may be giving him credit for. LeBron has the mind and body to be much better than 1 out of every 5 guys in the league at defense. League stats take into account bench players, rookies, and fringe starters, and specialists that can't play D very well. I would hope in this league of hundreds that he'd be better that the next 20 (1/20) or next 50 (1/50) or more guys (top 5% or top 2%), if he is going to be thought of as an elite defender. The numbers you presented show that his talent combined with lack of effort skews numbers from what he should be to lesser numbers in the teens, twenties, or worse, percentage wise.

The frustrations with LeBron's D is the lack of effort getting back, where he prefers to walk or talk to a ref. I don't see transition defensive stats anywhere in your post. Very important as on any given night most teams miss over 50% of their shots. Additionally when the team is back on D, he can be just as lazy in defending, and I think the numbers you provided, when taking into account his great potential as a defender, support that.

This is why folks rag on LeBron's "defense" or lack there of. And that is without even discussing the effect it has on team moral and cohesion when one guy chooses not to get back (talking to ref or just walking) or when he doesn't make the switch because he is conceding the play. These are more difficult arguments to make, but just sticking with the numbers you provided there's enough there to see he's not doing all he can defensively. He coasts.

Your post is honestly all talk and no substance. Please give me some measurable data to prove Lebron "does not get back on D"

There is also a difference between not doing all you can defensively and still not being s negative defender.

He is good enough on D to not give 100% and when he does give effort it is very impactful. There are more than these so called "cherry picked stats" that have already been mentioned. So for example, if he gives effort only 70% of the time and impacts the game on D at 90% effeciency. He is better than someone who gives 100% effort and is only 50% efficient.

Eye test is a horrible form of judgement for a number of reasons and is even worse so on Defense. We often notice the bad 10 times before we remember the good.

For what NBA dot Com does not provide, you must use those round things in the middle of your skull.

When advanced stats start measuring stuff like not getting back on D I'll have more respect for advanced stats.

Your hypothetical percentage sentence shows you know how to multiply. But it doesn't show you know how to analyze. You have to consider what is efficient. What does the other 30% (of the 70% of the time stat you mentioned) cost? If it's 2 points, versus what is efficient, you have some more math to do.

You mention "eye test" as if I didn't present statistical analysis of the numbers. Yes they were presented with words too, so you have to do some thinking and interpreting, but it's not the "eye test" I am arguing with. It's the numbers. But the eye test does support what the numbers have shown, especially if you look back further in his career (also mentioned in this thread).

Your post shows enough lack of understanding that I don't think I can really help you understand the points being made. Good luck.

So can give me a detailed break down of his "not getting back on D" over 1000s of possession through out the season or are you basing that assumption on a handful of highlights? The round things in the middle of your skull are prone to all forms of bias, they are not a great measure of any forms of data or used as conclusive evidence. Everything you see is filtered through your values, believes, identity etc etc. There is a reason you get laughed at for using what "your eyes see" in a court room. People who make broad stroke claims of someones entire career (or year) based on there eye, should be equally laughed at. Especially if you don''t have any data to back it up. OR if you also have data showing how incorrect you are.

Now I am not saying there isn't any room for analysis by your Eyes. I's just you have very little to back what you are saying with your 'words'

I don't know what numbers you are talking about, but there are far more numbers supporting Lebrons ability to play Defense, at least at a level that suggest he is not a negative defender, more so that this horrible defender who is bad for his team that people seem to be making out.

[OriginalRed]

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

[RakimAbdulJabar]

So typical to see certain people not willing to accept YouTube, as if that footage has been made up.

It’s almost as if they’re incapable of understanding what they’re watching and definitely incapable of reading.

Posters are being VERY clear in this thread by repeatedly saying it’s an issue of effort that’s being questioned, yet even with numerous examples of terrible lack of effort, a few just want to stick their head in the sand and deny it

Then again certain posters change their favourite team almost every season so it’s hard to take their opinion seriously

Simple question to hopefully end my participation in this pointless back and forth;

Do you think Lebrons effort on defense is acceptable?

The issue you have with using youtube as an example is you are collecting maybe 50, or even 100 possession of data, extrapolating that from 1000s and 1000s of possessions, and making a conclusive analysis of his defensive game.

If you can't see why you are being mocked for that, then keep on keeping on.

You also mentioned 'effort'. No one here has said he puts in an elite level effort. Again though, you are saying because he doesn't give effort all of the time, he is a bad defender. It's a lazy narrative to push. There is a lot more to it. You are ignoring the data in favour of your own personal opinion.

Is reading seriously that difficult, OK let's try again

50 to 100 examples of POOR EFFORT on defense from one season is a lot. Not poor defense in general but poor effort.

I couldn't care less if you or anyone else "mocks me" as I wouldn't want to agree with someone that thinks visual proof isn't an acceptable form of evidence. I also don't respect the opinion of the person that was doing so, so them disagreeing with me is a good thing.

Finally, regarding your last paragraph you are putting words into my mouth. I am not saying he is a "bad defender" I am saying he has a large sample of not giving effort on defense and in those instances that is bad defense due to lack of effort. You and others are then taking that and creating your own arguments that me and others aren't even making because you're so defensive (no pun intended) over Lebron

It's very simple and honestly frustrating to keep having to explain it.

Let's try bullet points

* Lebron is more than capable of playing good defense when he wants to

* Lebron doesn't seem to want to as much in the last few years, preferring to save his energy on the defensive end.

In specific incidents that he doesn't make the effort to get back on defense whether he's;
- Yelling at the ref and throwing a hissy fit
- Simply walking/jogging back
- Not rotating to his defensive assignment
- Standing and watching in transition defense

These are bad defensive possessions and as the leader of the team he should be held accountable just like a bench player would be.

It's really not that difficult to understand

[freethedevil]

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

The first play in the first video is literally a example of good help.

As usual, the eyetest crowd doesn't actually understand what they're watching.

[spikeslovechild]

All I know is LeBron was robbed of his Shaqtin' a Fool MVP Award this season. Such a travesty. The voters should have their rights revoked!

That inbounds off the backboard would get it from any other player but Lebron is protected. Noone dares criticize the king.

[spikeslovechild]

This thread is really interesting in highlighting how strong human bias is. People will ignore objective reality to fit a narrative in their mind. Crazy.


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There is nothing objective about trying to cook the books with bogus stats then saying it's the reality. It maybe your reality but I saw a shitton of Lakers games last year. Lebron was bad when he was forced to guard somebody it isn't debatable. We also all saw the effort level.

Maybe that changes this year it should especially now he has more talent and the excuse of having to take plays off on defense no longer applies.

[freethedevil]

What's the point of watching basketball if the numbers tell us everything?

Anyone watching the actual games will tell you that LeBron isn't playing defense. He usually walks back on defense as well.

I watched the games and you're wrong.

This is why we have the burden of proof.

[freethedevil]

In this thread: Actual footage of Lebron not making any effort on defense is ignored because herpy derpy youtube is not legit derpy

No, the footage is being dismissed because lebron sagging of a sub 30% shooter isn't bad defense.
Tracking durant and forcing him to switch onto another defender isn't bad defense.



The tape is being dismissed because the poster using the tape doesn't understand what he's watching. From the looks of things, neither do you.

[freethedevil]

Lebron must get a stop every single defensive possession because YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

This is why people think durant is a two way player.

[homecourtloss]

This thread is really interesting in highlighting how strong human bias is. People will ignore objective reality to fit a narrative in their mind. Crazy.

Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

It really, really is. I actually thought about titling the thread differently, e.g., “Even in 2002, MJ was a defensive monster” and posting some of the stats before people figured it out. Would the same people who refuse to believe objective criteria because they’ve made up their minds about something be the ones saying, “That’s not evidence,” “I saw the games myself—these stats aren’t right”? Or would they be willing to all of a sudden “believe” these stats because they align with preconceived beliefs?

[RakimAbdulJabar]

In this thread: Actual footage of Lebron not making any effort on defense is ignored because herpy derpy youtube is not legit derpy

No, the footage is being dismissed because lebron sagging of a sub 30% shooter isn't bad defense.
Tracking durant and forcing him to switch onto another defender isn't bad defense.



The tape is being dismissed because the poster using the tape doesn't understand what he's watching.

Not every example in the YouTube clips provided is bad defense or Lebron's fault. Somewhere between 60-70% are. If you read the comments I made when originally referring to the clips which I posted I was clear that they weren't all on Lebron. I'm well aware of what I'm watching, maybe you want to call out Billups and the other players/analysts as not knowing what they're watching too.

He's not the first 'superstar' to take possessions off on defense and he won't be the last. But when your team is fighting for a playoff spot and you come out and claim you're "activating playoff mode" then you should be held accountable when you can't be bothered making the effort.

Moving on, please and thank you. Arguing with Lebron fans is pointless, it's almost as if some of you think he's an actual King and can't be criticised in any way, shape or form. I promise you, he's not a real king and you won't get your head chopped off for acknowledging his faults

[freethedevil]

In this thread: Actual footage of Lebron not making any effort on defense is ignored because herpy derpy youtube is not legit derpy

No, the footage is being dismissed because lebron sagging of a sub 30% shooter isn't bad defense.
Tracking durant and forcing him to switch onto another defender isn't bad defense.



The tape is being dismissed because the poster using the tape doesn't understand what he's watching.

Not every example in the YouTube clips provided is bad defense or Lebron's fault. Somewhere between 60-70% are.

Good. Now tell me what % of lebron's defensive possesions are bad ones.
Oh wait? You can't?

Then you can't really tell me how good, bad, not bad, or how detrimental or beneficial lebron's defense is, can you?

This is why we use stats. And real analysts, supplement those stats with tape tracking where they take a steady sample and count how frequently a specifc type of play. A few sentences on a highlight video isn't analysis. It's a biased sample. Acting informed because you are capable of writing those sentences is silly.

If you're going to use an eyetest, use one from someone whose watched a good sample size of tape:

Watch on YouTube

Otherwise chill, coz your analysis isn't worth kcp.

[freethedevil]

It's no secret that LeBron had his lazy days on defense last season. It was unprofessional. You could tell he was just waiting for AD or some other star.

But he still has it in him. He is not slowing down like people think. He will be much more motivated this year, and I think we will see his Miami type defense.

We are not seeing la 34 yr old defend like he did when he was 27 sorry.