Better player next season: Simmons or Doncic?

[dorkestra]

The one that had been to the playoffs and plays elite defense.

[notericjr]

It's fine to like Simmons but he's not close to Doncic. Luka is younger, a decent enough athlete for a 19 year old just turning 20. He played last year with a dumpster roster of Tim Hardaway, DJ, Dirks Corpse and other retreads.

doncic would be shining brighter if he was surrounded by elite roster players like

*checks notes*

jarryd bayless
tj mcconnell
richaun holmes
trevor booker

uhhh

*checks again*

bad shoulder markelle fultz?
amir johnson?

yeah screw that ummm...well ben did get to play with dario who looked like a potential future all star level player. he's currently starring as the timberwolves whipping boy/scapegoat for whenever they lose a game. guess Ben was a big reason why he looked so good and just doesn't get those open looks that an elite passer can get you, anymore.

[TheBallsDeeper]

I just said he guards 5 positions, which includes PG. Simmons and Richardson are our primary perimeter defenders.

Either way I agree with HBK that PG is a function of offense, hence Magic Johnson being universally recognized as a PG.

There are two problems with DreamTeam09's post.

(1) Simmons does guard point guards, and 3 other positions, depending on matchups. Was he a point guard in the Series against Brooklyn when he dominated Russel? Under "he is what he gaurds", is he a PG, SG, SF and PF all in the one game, or does it vary game to game what you classify him as?

(2) According to DreamTeam09 - Robert Covington is a point guard.

If Robert Covington covers the pg then who did Teague or Rose gaurd while they were on the court ?? Yes other players can gaurd multiple positions and not be at the primary position they are covering. Covington doesn't take any point gaurd duties either, To call Ben Simmons a true pg is a bit of a reach but that is semantics neway. Not something I'd really argue either, If he did cover the pg in the nets series then I can't really refute that, he didn't gaurd Lowry against the Raptors.

I guess this year he'll have to cover the pg full-time unless he takes the 2 and Richardson gaurds the point.

I'm really confused with this post. What's the reference to Teague and Rose? EDIT - got it now, you're talking about Wolves ROCO, I was talking about Sixers ROCO

When you say "other players can guard multiple positions and not be at the primary position they are covering", do you mean players other than Simmons, or are you agreeing that Simmons is a point guard?

Also, you say "Covington doesn't take any point guard duties either", I'm assuming that you mean bringing the ball up and facilitating, is that correct? Because your whole point earlier was that is not what makes a point guard, it's who they guard, so I'm unsure what you consider "point guard duties"

[Alatan]

im not the biggest simmons fan cause of his poor shooting but that voting result is ridiculously lopsided.

yall ignore defense

Ben is such a tremendous defender that he improves the defense of both his own and the opposing team at the same time.

[Slim Tubby]

When you look at their overall game and future potential, it’s Doncic, but Simmons is a heck of a talent.


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[LKN]

If Simmons really hasn't made his shooting a real priority until now that is a huge indictment of him and/or the Sixers organization. I mean I honestly find that hard to believe. How the hell could he not be working on perhaps the most important skill for any perimeter player?

How is it hard to believe? it is well known that he is an early bloomer who is extremely blessed to have the talent he has, he is doing the same things he was doing in high school, but he has never cared about improving at all, he is good enough to where his raw talent makes him an all star and gets him a max contract with only being in shape and barely training basketball skills. He would easily be a top 5 player in the NBA if he practiced hard.

So he's lazy and unmotivated?

[ballup]

Doncic...i think he will continue to the better player the entirety of their careers. Hes already a leading man on a team. If BS was on the Mavs in his place having to lead a team offensively it wouldnt be pretty.

We've already seen Simmons have to lead a team offensively when Embiid broke his eye socket last year.

The result? The 76ers only managed to win 17 straight games and he made Bellinelli and Ilyasova alot of money in free agency

Embiid got injured during the 74th game of that season and he returned game 3 of the first round. How exactly does that equate to 17 straight games let alone wins? That's 11 games and most of them were against bad teams (Hornets, Nets, Pistons, Bucks) or tanking teams (Knicks, Hawks x2, Mav) at the end of the season. They got two good wins against decent teams like the Cavs and the Heat. But hey, we gotta leave out context right?

[LKN]

Doncic...i think he will continue to the better player the entirety of their careers. Hes already a leading man on a team. If BS was on the Mavs in his place having to lead a team offensively it wouldnt be pretty.

We've already seen Simmons have to lead a team offensively when Embiid broke his eye socket last year.

The result? The 76ers only managed to win 17 straight games and he made Bellinelli and Ilyasova alot of money in free agency

Embiid got injured during the 74th game of that season and he returned game 3 of the first round. How exactly does that equate to 17 straight games let alone wins? That's 11 games and most of them were against bad teams (Hornets, Nets, Pistons, Bucks) or tanking teams (Knicks, Hawks x2, Mav) at the end of the season. They got two good wins against decent teams like the Cavs and the Heat. But hey, we gotta leave out context right?

I went and looked it up - they won 9 games in a row after Embiid was injured.

[JoseRizal]

Doncic is the more complete player right now, so that makes him better than Simmons.

[ballup]

We've already seen Simmons have to lead a team offensively when Embiid broke his eye socket last year.

The result? The 76ers only managed to win 17 straight games and he made Bellinelli and Ilyasova alot of money in free agency

Embiid got injured during the 74th game of that season and he returned game 3 of the first round. How exactly does that equate to 17 straight games let alone wins? That's 11 games and most of them were against bad teams (Hornets, Nets, Pistons, Bucks) or tanking teams (Knicks, Hawks x2, Mav) at the end of the season. They got two good wins against decent teams like the Cavs and the Heat. But hey, we gotta leave out context right?

I went and looked it up - they won 9 games in a row after Embiid was injured.

I mentioned the 11 total games, not wins. They won 10 in a row if you count the first round of the playoffs

[kio80]

Ben is still on his rookie deal?

And stopped being a PG?

Is he not still on his rookie deal??? Doesn't his extension kick in next summer

and Ben doesn't guard PGs so yea he is a point forward

Ben is not 6’8 though, he’s 6’10, maybe taller


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[CIN-C-STAR]

Simmons really is a way better defender right now than Doncic though, and will be for the foreseeable future.
Doncic is obviously the better and the higher ceiling prospect long term, but it's not crazy to think Simmons will have a better season.
With Butler gone, Simmons will get to do more of what he likes in the half court, and he's a monster in transition. I see him having a 20 & 8 season with strong rebounding and excellent defense.
Doncic is one of the most exciting players in the league and arguably thee most exciting young player in the league, but he's still not even old enough to drink legally in the states

[Ben Simmons]

Doncic doesn't have anything he can really improve dramatically.
He's a well-rounded player (at least offensively), but he's physically limited

[dhsilv2]

Is he not still on his rookie deal??? Doesn't his extension kick in next summer

and Ben doesn't guard PGs so yea he is a point forward

True his max doesn’t kick in until next summer. But regarding position, point forward is typically used to describe forwards that facilitate half court offense without dribbling the ball up the court. Ben is a true PG that can guard 5 positions.

How is he a true pg if he doesn't guard pgs??? You are the position you defend, not the position your coach puts you in on offense. When does Ben guard the PG??

So if Ben is the offensive point guard but doesn't guard point guards, the point guard on the other team can't be guarding the point guard...so by that NEITHER team has a point guard. thus we must conclude positions don't exist and never have!

[dhsilv2]

Luka. Put him on 76ers instead of Ben and it's a CHAMPIONSHIP.

Agreed. Imo, the match between Embiid and Simmons ain't too great. It could change if Simmons starts shooting, but imo both need the ball in their hands, neither is good at spotting up(Embiid hits them here and there, but when he misses it's some heavy bricks), and they kinda shrink the floor for one another. What the C's did last year and this was double Embiid at times using Simmons' man. Doncic would fit there sooo much better.

I'd take Doncic for now, but both have room for improvement.

They work far better defensively together than Doncic and him would. There's more to basketball than scoring in the half court.

[dhsilv2]

After the Celtics series last year, Ben was asked if he planned to work on his jump shot. He laughed at the question and responded with "I'm going to work on being a better player" which demonstrated to me he wasn't taking it seriously.

After the Raptor's series this year, both he and Brett Brown listed his jump shot as an offseason priority. That was before any of these jump shot videos started coming out. No, shooting in an empty gym is not the same as shooting in the game, but the fact that it's a priority for him is the important difference.

Okay, all that being said, he still won't be an efficient shooter, the free-throw rate is a justifiable precedent and learning to shoot off the dribble takes time. I believe you that he's placed it as a priority, but one offseason Isn't enough, he's still too young to accept drastic change, with the style of play so entrenched in his mind, I think it'll take him a couple more years to adapt. Shooting 30% from three and bricking pull-up mid-ranges is what's going to happen next season if he decides to shoot them, I think this is the most realistic expectation for him and I hope we can agree upon that.

Bruce Bowen shot 44.1% from 3 the same year he shot 40.4% from the line. More than any other part of basketball, jump shooting can be improved with practice. We are seeing that more and more, especially with modern bigs who have been tasked with spreading the court. I've been preaching "incremental progress" for Ben, so 30% from 3 would be a welcomed improvement in my book. That said I see no reason to cap my expectations at "bricking pull-up mid-range" jumpers.

30% from 3 from Ben would be down right SHOCKING. He's got a LOT of work to do. Everything about his jump shot is broken.

[dhsilv2]

I just said he guards 5 positions, which includes PG. Simmons and Richardson are our primary perimeter defenders.

Either way I agree with HBK that PG is a function of offense, hence Magic Johnson being universally recognized as a PG.

There are two problems with DreamTeam09's post.

(1) Simmons does guard point guards, and 3 other positions, depending on matchups. Was he a point guard in the Series against Brooklyn when he dominated Russel? Under "he is what he gaurds", is he a PG, SG, SF and PF all in the one game, or does it vary game to game what you classify him as?

(2) According to DreamTeam09 - Robert Covington is a point guard.

If Robert Covington covers the pg then who did Teague or Rose gaurd while they were on the court ?? Yes other players can gaurd multiple positions and not be at the primary position they are covering. Covington doesn't take any point gaurd duties either, To call Ben Simmons a true pg is a bit of a reach but that is semantics neway. Not something I'd really argue either, If he did cover the pg in the nets series then I can't really refute that, he didn't gaurd Lowry against the Raptors.

I guess this year he'll have to cover the pg full-time unless he takes the 2 and Richardson gaurds the point.

Simmons guards the best offensive threat on the other team outside of bigs. He's the team's best man defender.

[TheBallsDeeper]

Simmons really is a way better defender right now than Doncic though, and will be for the foreseeable future.
Doncic is obviously the better and the higher ceiling prospect long term, but it's not crazy to think Simmons will have a better season.
With Butler gone, Simmons will get to do more of what he likes in the half court, and he's a monster in transition. I see him having a 20 & 8 season with strong rebounding and excellent defense.
Doncic is one of the most exciting players in the league and arguably thee most exciting young player in the league, but he's still not even old enough to drink legally in the states

I don't agree that "Doncic is obviously the better and the higher ceiling prospect long term"

Simmons is bigger, faster, a better athlete and a better defender. BBIQ, which I think is the most important, could go either way. Simmons can't shoot, and if he continues to struggle Donic might go past him. Donic will never be the Athlete that Simmons is and will struggle on defense in comparison, but he will most likely be the better scorer.

To date Simmons has been better, but he is also older. I think it's 50/50 as to who will be better next year and long term.

Although if Simmons drops the attitude and starts using his correct hand to shoot it's all over for Donic.

[ThumbsUpBaby]

Looks like I'm going to be part of the minority here.

I personally think Simmons has the better talent and higher ceiling than Doncic. Even with his lack of shooting next year, I don't think Doncic will be better than him. If and only if, Simmons doesn't develop a 3pt shot throughout his career, I have Doncic easily overtaking him.

With that said, give me Ben Simmons with a 3pt shot, or any resemblance of shooting, over Doncic any day. Both are MVP talents, but Simmons > Doncic imo. We'll have to see this upcoming season though.

Edit:
I'm reading through this thread and I can't believe people actually think Doncic was a better player than Simmons last season. Ridiculous. I'm part of the Doncic hype train, but damn, this train is falling off the rails to cuckoo land.

[ThumbsUpBaby]

Simmons didn't get (much) better in his 2nd season. His jump shot, which is a huge factor in becoming a better player in this era, hasn't got any better at all. Simmons will most probably remain Simmons from 2017-18 and 2018-19. Doncic, on the other hand, can spend the offseason working on his body, improve his conditioning, his jump shot (selection?), and won't need to do as much as he was asked to in the last 30-40 regular season games. While his per game stats will probably remain similar, there is IMO a high chance that his efficiency will improve.
I would have to go with Doncic. (we are talking about offense, aren't we?)

Doncic can improve but for some reason, you think Simmons will remain the same? Under what basis? Everyone is acting like Simmons is a finished product. News flash, he's not. He just finished his 2nd season and is still developing.