MJ VS LEBRON VS WHOEVER THREAD

[The4thHorseman]

WTF

Jordan had TWO 3 peats

If he didn’t retire for baseball he most likely would have won 8 straight.

How does he win 8 straight, when he wasn't able play more than 7 consecutive full seasons without having to quit the league due to mental and physical fatigue?

After away from the game for almost 2yrs, he was only able to play 3 more consecutive seasons before quitting again citing "mental exhaustion." No chance whatsoever that he leads the Bulls to 8 straight.

Two 3peats is an enormous feat but it would have been much more impressive if he didn't feel the need to take almost 2 seasons off to rest up.

[mixerball]

russell is 11- kareem? how does that work?

[mixerball]

LeBron doesn't belong to this group of GOATs. They have like twice MVPs and rings.

The funniest thing to me is that Lebron fans deep down all know he doesn't belong which is why they are constantly trying to find another argument that they can try to use.

Why are you so insecure?

Here's Lebron's argument:

-> possible GOAT peak
-> Potentially valuable career
-> GOAT prime

Here's jordan's argument
-> possible GOAT peak

One player has multiple venues of argumentation, the other has one. Jordan's case vs Lebron is based on something he can't claim close to goathood in. Russell and Kareem were unquestionably greater winners. That's just reality.

I'd expect a former mod to have better comping mechanisms.

lol only one argument?

[MGB8]

Lebron's carrying the Cavs to the finals win over the Warriors is phenomenal... even with the Draymond Green issue and banged up Warriors team. Lebron's play in that series can be compared to anyone.

But on the whole? Yes, Lebron is a great player. And, sure, we don't know what Lebron would have been like if he had played in the 90's and we'd have been able to get a direct comparison. But 6 for 6, separated by a retirement, on a team that without him lost in the 2nd round (although the Bulls managed to push that team to a 7 game series due to home cooking....) to the more tough than talented Knicks (who did go on to the finals and to push Houston to 7 games... evidence that with MJ, the Bulls would have won the finals that year....)

No one faults Lebron for not immediately getting to the finals, just like no one faults MJ or Kobe or Shaq, etc. Players get a few years to develop and get their team built up. And Lebron got a weak Cavs team past a decent Pistons team to the finals in 07, but then got SWEPT by the Spurs... and then couldn't get back until he made the decision to join to then other top 10 players in Wade and Bosh on superteam 1. And even that team, monster that it was, went 2 of 4 in the Finals.

[The4thHorseman]

In the 1998 Finals, MJ avg. 4 boards and 2 assists and shot 42% in the 6 game series. How many of the top 10 superstars could lead their team to a title with such small numbers and low FG%?

[Fencer reregistered]

Russell is my #1 in the GOAT rankings, for a variety of reasons. The big one that's perhaps least discussed is how radically he changed the game. Leaving your feet to defend was thought of as wrong, and he defied conventional wisdom (including his own coach).

It's actually laughable how 2000's fans repeat "no one cared about effiency" when Russell clearly did and planned accordingly. When someone from the 50's solves analytics, you only have yourself to blame.

In one of Russell's books, he talks about how he and KC Jones did calculations to answer the question, "If you are late running out to contest a jump shot (so you are contesting from a distance), when is it better to jump toward the shooter with your arm high and when is it better to jump straight up and extend your arm at an angle toward the shooter. He didn't include the actual calculations or all the specific parameters they considered, but they concluded that jumping straight up and extending the arm forward gets you closer to the release point (and reduces the risk of fouling).

I can't really judge the validity of the conclusion, but the point is how analytical his thinking was and how much he paid attention to detail in his approach to the game.

Amusingly, it is both the case that:

-- KC Jones has one of the thinnest playing resumes for anybody in the HOF; basically, he was carried there by Russell.
-- KC Jones' theoretical contributions to the game are very underrated (because they were as research assistant to Russell).

I think that's just coincidence. But if the voters who put him the HoF did it on purpose for that reason -- well, then kudos to them.

[shtolky]

There really is no other convincing argument than the eye test, for me personally. I grew up watching 90's basketball and obviously watch today's NBA. When I watched Jordan play I felt there was no way he was losing. You could tell the other team feared him because he just wasn't going to lose. When I watch Lebron play, I don't get the same exact sense. They are 1 and 2 respectively, and I would argue it's so close that the 2011 finals vs. Dallas invalidates Lebron as the best because he was atrocious that series on a superteam no less.

Lebron is a legendary all time great, but Jordan was the better player.

[Myth]

Why is this obvious troll thread still not locked?

[Stannis]

I agree to some extent. Some are making as if 6/6 is better than the 6/8 he woulda been if he didn't play baseball.

[Ugalde]

Jordan
6 NBA Championships
6 Finals MVPs
5 Regular Season MVPs

LeBron
3 NBA Championships
3 Finals MVPs
4 Regular Season MVPs

Jordan’s resume looks better to me. now i’ve never watched Jordan play live so i’m definitely not a stan. i’ve actually been watching LeBron since his first stint in Cleveland. he’s my favorite player in the NBA. i just don’t see his argument as GOAT as convincing enough yet.

[KrisKringle]

Lebron's 2011 finals are probably the weakest NBA finals performance of any top 10 player of all time. It's almost unfathomable that the unquestioned best player in the game at the time put up the following en route to losing to a much less talented team in 6:

17.8 Pts (3rd on his own team), 7.2 rebounds, 6.8 assists on 54% TS

Game 4 stats: 8 points and 0 in the fourth quarter in a tight loss

To me, the 2011 finals alone disqualifies Lebron for GOAT contention. He's unquestionably one of the greatest players ever but with margin for error at the top so razor thin, this type of legendary meltdown is disqualifying.

[Stannis]

The annoying thing about Jordan stans, is they make it like Jordan was some perfect mythical creature. He had a lot of things go his way. Pippen and PJax, hand check and illegal defense rules, a deluded league, playing baseball instead of facing a prime Hakeem.

Say if a somebody says their top 5 is this:

1) Jordan
2) Russell
3) Kareem
4) Wilt
5) Bird

Jordan stans say it should be like this:

1) Jordan










2) Russell
3) Kareem
4) Wilt
5) Bird

Don't get me wrong. I have Jordan as my GOAT or my top 3 at least.

LBJs 2011 appearance was pretty bad. And I think he should be compared to the likes of Magic Johnson and Bird instead.

[BigtimeNBAfan]

Apparently Michael Jordan's legacy is better because he lost to Detroit in 89 and 90. Hell it is better that he didn't make the playoffs in 2003! Imagine if at 40 years old he led the Wizards to the finals but lost to the Spurs? The horror!!! He wouldn't be 6-0 in the finals! Much better to go 0-82 compared to making the finals according to the "serious basketball fans" on here.

[YogurtProducer]

lebron has been the best player in the finals 7 times now, jordan only made the finals 6 times playing inferior teams. lebron may also end up with 40k/10k/10k which is insane. lebron is the clear-cut goat and it's not even close.

You can’t be the Goat and lose most of your finals, especially when you chickened out on your team to go play with your friends.

Jordon would NEVER, I mean NEVER go play with other players on another team.

Lebron can be 2nd and remove Kareem but he cemented his legacy

You have no idea what MJ would do if he wasn’t on a stacked team in Chicago. He would’ve been gone.

[ropjhk]

lebron has been the best player in the finals 7 times now, jordan only made the finals 6 times playing inferior teams. lebron may also end up with 40k/10k/10k which is insane. lebron is the clear-cut goat and it's not even close.

I always know to dismiss an opinion when I see the term "and it's not even close".

[BigtimeNBAfan]

Lebron's 2011 finals are probably the weakest NBA finals performance of any top 10 player of all time. It's almost unfathomable that the unquestioned best player in the game at the time put up the following en route to losing to a much less talented team in 6:

17.8 Pts (3rd on his own team), 7.2 rebounds, 6.8 assists on 54% TS

Game 4 stats: 8 points and 0 in the fourth quarter in a tight loss

To me, the 2011 finals alone disqualifies Lebron for GOAT contention. He's unquestionably one of the greatest players ever but with margin for error at the top so razor thin, this type of legendary meltdown is disqualifying.

By this logic Kobe is disqualified for his 2000 finals performance. Imagine if Lebron only scored 15pts a game on 36% shooting and went 12-47 in the last two games not to mention have a teammate average 38 pts in the series and be that incredibly dominant? Would any Lebron critic ever let him live that down?

[The4thHorseman]

According to this thread, isn't Robert Horry one of the greatest?

Did you mispell Russell?

Jordan's bulls coasted to contention without him, Russell's celtics were average in his absence.

Do you have like, any concept of history?

If you think the Bulls coasted without Jordan than you are only proving that you do not know what you are talking about. Not to mention the Bulls changed over half their roster that summer.

They did?

Bulls starting 5 in the 1993 Finals:
BJ Armstrong
MJ
Pippen
Grant
Cartwright

Starting 5 for 1994 reg. season:
BJ
Pete Myers (a 6th round pick, 120th overall n the 1986 draft)
Pippen
Grant
Cartwright/Longley/Stacey King

Starting 5 against the NYK in the 1994 ECSF:
BJ
Myers
Pippen
Grant
Cartwright

I realize they added Kukoc and Kerr also, but Kerr was just about a bigger journeyman as Pete Myers was. Kerr was a nobody when he signed with Chicago. The didn't overall their roster that much.

[BigtimeNBAfan]

Yep if rings are all that matter than Russell is the GOAT. If you bring up eras, stats, performance, teammates, etc. . . you are admitting rings are not the only thing that matter and it opens the door to other arguments.

If you want to say Michael Jordan is better than Lebron because he has more rings than you have to accept Bill Russell is better than Jordan because he almost has double the amount of rings as him. I'm not even saying that. Jordan's prime was the best of all time, but rings alone is a stupid argument. There are a lot of factors that go into winning championships beyond just who the best individual player was.

[jfs1000d]

1. Jordan
2. LeBron
3. Russell
4. Wilt
5. Kareem
6. Bird
7. Magic
8. Oscar

Those are the top 8 players in nba history. Jordan is 1 on almost all lists. We can argue about the other 7 where they belong depending on what you value.

And on Russell and Wilt....PJ Tucker is 6-5 and starts for the Rockets. I don't want to hear bout couldn't play in today's NBA. Would destroy it these days. Especialyl Wilt.

[BigtimeNBAfan]

Why is this obvious troll thread still not locked?

Because it is a relevant topic. Lebron gets beat up on here all the time for not having as many rings as Michael Jordan and sometimes even as many as Kobe yet if that is the case why isn't Bill Russell considered the greatest of all time for having as many rings as Kobe and Jordan combined?