Winning Needs to Matter in MVP Conversation Again

[WarriorGM]

Steph "carried" the warriors to 9th. That's not even in the top half. This years Nuggets were quite a bit better than than the Warriors last year. This is probably a good argument for Jokic. Jokic made his team better than an on form Curry scoring 32 ppg and Draymond Green do together. And just for fun it's worth noting Oubre and Wiggins both outscored the Nuggets next best guy. And you had Poole coming off the bench, someone who'd easily be starting for this Nuggets team.

Based on your logic why does Steph not making the playoffs matter? If we can’t critique Jokic’s garbage play in the playoffs?

Steph managed 9th in the RS, which is play-in, not automatic qualification. Jokic managed 6th, which is. It's a benchmark of a successful regular season. He also had the better win record.

There is no conflict of logic.

This is wrong. The Warriors finished 8th at the end of the 2021 regular season.

Also the most important point that is missed in this discussion is that we know Curry's play can contribute to not just regular season wins but championship wins too.

That is the real cause of any uneasiness in Jokic going back-to-back as MVP. We cannot be as certain that his does.

[velkisimo]

This argument was why Steph couldn’t win MVP last year. Now we move the goalposts for him this year.

Did Steph even make the playoffs last season? So isn't it you who is trying to move goalposts for Steph there?

There's an unwritten rule about not selecting MVPs from teams who don't make the playoffs... after Kareem Abdul-Jabbar was gifted the MVP in the 70s despite his Lakers team not making the playoffs.

Source for this newspaper clipping:

I was told today that the MVP’s performance in the playoffs doesn’t matter because the MVP is a regular season award. So by that logic why does Steph missing the playoffs matter? We’re only awarding him for his regular season work. Jokic fans can’t have it both ways. Either sit back and take the beating your guy is getting or try to defend him and get facts thrown in your faces.

What?

I think you have a hard time differentiating playoff performance from qualifying for playoffs. Only 1 of those 2 is a result from regular season.

[dhsilv2]

I agree with the premise. The issue is that the other two clear MVP candidates didn't win enough games to separate themselves from a games won perspective. Giannis only won 3 more games with a proven championship roster. Embiid only won 3 more games, and unfortunately for him he was penalized for getting Harden (even though 90% of the world believes that Harden is washed, so that one didn't make much sense).

Somebody mentioned it already in this thread and I mentioned it yesterday's game thread, but all you don't have to look hard to see that the Nuggets just beat up on bad opponents and we're poor against the good ones. But voters aren't looking that hard at that stuff.
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In my opinion though, there's a clear gap between all three of this years front runners and someone like Booker; probably the best player on the best team.

Keep in mind Jokic won 1 more game than both did in the games these players actually played.

[AleksandarN]

Based on your logic why does Steph not making the playoffs matter? If we can’t critique Jokic’s garbage play in the playoffs?

Steph managed 9th in the RS, which is play-in, not automatic qualification. Jokic managed 6th, which is. It's a benchmark of a successful regular season. He also had the better win record.

There is no conflict of logic.

This is wrong. The Warriors finished 8th at the end of the 2021 regular season.

Also the most important point that is missed in this discussion is that we know Curry's play can contribute to not just regular season wins but championship wins too.

That is the real cause of any uneasiness in Jokic going back-to-back as MVP. We cannot be as certain that his does.

I agree Curry has proven himself Jokic hasn't yet but you also have to acknowledge that Jokic never had the talented teams Curry had to work with. Regardless Jokic needs to do better against this GSW team. I am so jealous the sheer talent GSW has. Money well spent.

[LAL1947]

That’s not my logic that’s the logic I heard today and I’m applying it to Steph. So if it sounds absurd then imagine how the goalpost moving for Jokic sounds to me.

Well, you're applying it wrongly because Steph didn't make the playoffs and Jokic did. That's the point where you started shifting goal-posts.

[NetsJets]

That’s not my logic that’s the logic I heard today and I’m applying it to Steph. So if it sounds absurd then imagine how the goalpost moving for Jokic sounds to me.

Well, you're applying it wrongly because Steph didn't make the playoffs and Jokic did. That's the point where you started shifting goal-posts.

The play IN is not the regular season. Steph made the post season.

[NZB2323]

Jokic has more wins this year than Embiid or Giannis. The Bucks and 76ers won games when Embiid and Giannis were in street clothes. Jokic played in 7 more games than Giannis and 6 more games than Embiid, and one of those guys should win MVP over Jokic because their teams won games when they weren’t playing?

The Bucks and 76ers won 3 more games, and neither team finished as a top 2 seed.

But the OP’s argument is that because the Nuggets are getting blown out by Golden State Jokic isn’t the MVP. The Warriors are a sleeping giant, and it’s a regular season award. Are people saying that Dirk didn’t deserve the MVP in 2007? Or David Robinson in 1995? Or Steph in 2016?

If the Nuggets were the 7th seed, or if the Bucks or 76ers had the best record in the league, I’d be against Jokic winning MVP, but the Bucks and 76ers have better records because they won games when Giannis and Embiid weren’t playing, which shouldn’t add to their MVP argument.

[LAL1947]

That’s not my logic that’s the logic I heard today and I’m applying it to Steph. So if it sounds absurd then imagine how the goalpost moving for Jokic sounds to me.

Well, you're applying it wrongly because Steph didn't make the playoffs and Jokic did. That's the point where you started shifting goal-posts.

The play IN is not the regular season. Steph made the post season.

The rule says you need to make the playoffs. You're moving the goal-posts by changing playoffs to post-season. No?

[NZB2323]

That’s not my logic that’s the logic I heard today and I’m applying it to Steph. So if it sounds absurd then imagine how the goalpost moving for Jokic sounds to me.

Well, you're applying it wrongly because Steph didn't make the playoffs and Jokic did. That's the point where you started shifting goal-posts.

The play IN is not the regular season. Steph made the post season.

But the play-in also isn’t the playoffs.

[rickbrunson]

Joker is the best player when games dont matter.

Such horsecrap. Jokic is a 26/11/6 on 62%TS playoff performer in 44 games. That's one of the best ever, and literally five of the best six players in this series are playing on the Warriors.

His career playoff record is 20-25. Who cares about individual shooting % when you're a loser?

[Bergmaniac]

Anyone who leads his team to 48 wins when his second best healthy player is Aaron freaking Gordon automatically deserves MVP in my book.

[Drakeem]

Who does Jokic have on his team? Their second best player missed the entire season. Their 3rd best player missed most of it.

Exactly. They have a mediocre team. Maybe Jokic could provide more value with a better surrounding cast, but the current reality is his team is mediocre, and achieved mediocre results, 11th best record and 48 wins. We shouldn’t be rewarding this type of value, we should be rewarding players who can lead their team to success. This isn’t to take anything away from Jokics individual performances this season, but don’t reward him with this prestigious an award two years in a row when it’s obvious his team is not very good.

This isn’t to take anything away from Jokics individual performances this season, but don’t reward him with this prestigious an award

his team is not very good.

[Ambrose]

OP, Booker isn't an MVP caliber player. Of the guys who were, Jokic was the best, and likely most valuable to his team.

The Suns played at a 47 win pace without Booker. They were 8-6 without him. In five of those losses either Ayton, CP3 or both missed the game as well. In games that only Booker missed, they were 4-1. So odds are good that the Suns, minus Booker, are just as good if not better than the current Nuggets. Well how about Denver? The Nuggets played at a 21 win pace without Jokic. They played at a 51 win pace with him. Is 30 extra wins not valuable? is 30 extra wins not "winning mattering"?

[NetsJets]

Well, you're applying it wrongly because Steph didn't make the playoffs and Jokic did. That's the point where you started shifting goal-posts.

The play IN is not the regular season. Steph made the post season.

The rule says you need to make the playoffs. You're moving the goal-posts by changing playoffs to post-season. No?

Is the Play In the post season? Then how am I moving the goalposts?

[LAL1947]

The play IN is not the regular season. Steph made the post season.

The rule says you need to make the playoffs. You're moving the goal-posts by changing playoffs to post-season. No?

Is the Play In the post season? Then how am I moving the goalposts?

Moving the goal-posts implies making a target bigger, which is exactly what you're doing... by moving the goal-posts from "playoffs" to "play-in", to give Curry a larger target to aim at.

[Ambrose]

The play IN is not the regular season. Steph made the post season.

The rule says you need to make the playoffs. You're moving the goal-posts by changing playoffs to post-season. No?

Is the Play In the post season? Then how am I moving the goalposts?

Jokic wouldn't have won MVP if he missed the playoffs so your point is moot.

[zimpy27]

It's a regular season award. Playoffs have nothing to do with it

[NetsJets]

The rule says you need to make the playoffs. You're moving the goal-posts by changing playoffs to post-season. No?

Is the Play In the post season? Then how am I moving the goalposts?

Moving the goal-posts implies making a target bigger, which is exactly what you're doing... by moving the goal-posts from "playoffs" to "play-in", to give Curry a larger target to aim at.

Is that like saying that we can’t criticize Jokic’s garbage play because the playoffs are separate from the regular season?

[NetsJets]

The rule says you need to make the playoffs. You're moving the goal-posts by changing playoffs to post-season. No?

Is the Play In the post season? Then how am I moving the goalposts?

Jokic wouldn't have won MVP if he missed the playoffs so your point is moot.

They would’ve made the play in and votes were counted before that even started.

[LAL1947]

Is the Play In the post season? Then how am I moving the goalposts?

Moving the goal-posts implies making a target bigger, which is exactly what you're doing... by moving the goal-posts from "playoffs" to "play-in", to give Curry a larger target to aim at.

Is that like saying that we can’t criticize Jokic’s garbage play because the playoffs are separate from the regular season?

You are fully free to criticize Jokic in the playoffs or anything you want.

His performance in the playoffs is separate from his performance in the regular season for the MVP race though.