Jerry West pretty much destroys JJ Redick

[NoStatsGuy]

I understand that reddicks comment is out of line and uncalled for.

but did we just go from "you didnt play, you cant critcize our era" to "you only averaged 12 pts, you cant critize our era" ?

thats ridiculous

[BlackThought]

I agree with Redick 100%. I don't think West actually watched the entire conversation between JJ and Mad Dog Russo. Redick can avg 1 point or 40 points in his career and it wouldn't have made a difference. Don't give Jerry West a pass because dude's old and a legend.

[Genjuro]

Redick's comment was unfortunate particularly beacuse how he phrased it. It feels disrespectful. But I don't think he's that far from the truth.

And then West relies on the oldest trick in the book, the ad hominem argument, trying to discredit Redick for his on court production, when this discussion has nothing to do with how good or bad Redick was playing in the NBA.

But since he brings that argument up, let's take a closer look at Redick's per-game point performance, which is the metric West used.

Now, this is the list of the top white American per-game scorers in the NBA that coincided at any point of their careers with J.J. Redick (the minimum requirement is having played 200 games in the NBA, and hopefully I'm not forgetting anybody):
1.- Kevin Love: 17.6
2.- Gordon Hayward: 15.6
3.- David Lee: 13.5
4.- J.J. Redick: 12.8

In 1960, near the end of Bob Cousy's basketball career, still around 80% of NBA players were white Americans. Now you do the math about how good and impactful would've Redick been back then.

[BallerTalk]

"Destroys"??
I can't help but think some of you are projecting your other issues with Redick into this situation.

West's comments in that clip were little more than a color-by-numbers retort for a notoriously crotchety, aging NBA diva.
I've heard more incisive trash talk at the local gym yet some of you are celebrating it like it was some savage clap back.

The real irony is that West inadvertently affirmed much of what JJ was pointing out.

[DonaldSanders]

"Destroys"??
I can't help but think some of you are projecting your other issues with Redick into this situation.

West's comments in that clip were little more than a color-by-numbers retort for a notoriously crotchety, aging NBA diva.
I've heard more incisive trash talk at the local gym yet some of you are celebrating it like it was some savage clap back.

The real irony is that West inadvertently affirmed much of what JJ was pointing out.

JJ got put in his rightful place. He's a scrub level player compared to an all-time great like Jerry West. Yes, the average players was worse than they are now, but the all-time greats back then would still be all-time greats now, and would look even better with modern science/health stuff.

West didn't affirm what JJ pointed out, he explained people worked part time jobs in the summer, they weren't professional plumbers. They were pro basketball players with side gigs. Stop the revisionist BS.

[AussieRules]

I understand his point, but Jerry is basically saying only the greats can competently talk basketball. That’s just not true. If you make it to the league, your opinion on ball should be revered. But that’s just me. Keep doing your thing JJ!

West obviously took it as a personal dig at him and his contemporaries, which is understandable. That's why he took a personal dig at JJ himself, saying he's nowhere near their level, or whatever.

People should remember that West, for much as he's perceived as a respectful and gracious man, has always been kind of a high maintenance ego (even long after his playing days).

All ATG players have high maintenance ego. West was the best perimeter player in his era, he earned his high maintenance status

[OdomFan]

"Destroys"??
I can't help but think some of you are projecting your other issues with Redick into this situation.

West's comments in that clip were little more than a color-by-numbers retort for a notoriously crotchety, aging NBA diva.
I've heard more incisive trash talk at the local gym yet some of you are celebrating it like it was some savage clap back.

The real irony is that West inadvertently affirmed much of what JJ was pointing out.

The only thing Jerry seemed to have a problem with was the disrespectful way JJ went about calling the past talent firemen and whatever else. Thats where Jerry is like "who the heck were you" to look down on anyone when you yourself wasn't really a top star in your own era. Doesn't mean he wasn't a good contributor for the teams he played for, because he was. but yeah. JJ needs to chill.

[michaelm]

"Destroys"??
I can't help but think some of you are projecting your other issues with Redick into this situation.

West's comments in that clip were little more than a color-by-numbers retort for a notoriously crotchety, aging NBA diva.
I've heard more incisive trash talk at the local gym yet some of you are celebrating it like it was some savage clap back.

The real irony is that West inadvertently affirmed much of what JJ was pointing out.

JJ got put in his rightful place. He's a scrub level player compared to an all-time great like Jerry West. Yes, the average players was worse than they are now, but the all-time greats back then would still be all-time greats now, and would look even better with modern science/health stuff.

West didn't affirm what JJ pointed out, he explained people worked part time jobs in the summer, they weren't professional plumbers. They were pro basketball players with side gigs. Stop the revisionist BS.

The salient thing West said was that in his era players mostly had to supplement their income with side jobs because they weren’t paid enough, whereas now even a role player, not that he was a bad one, like JJ Reddick basically can earn generational wealth over his career.

How much of the current popularity of basketball is due to West himself is a different question, but he is The Logo, and previous generations of players definitely paved the way for current players, Bill Russell in particular which is partly why I myself am such a big Russell fan. I don’t think JJ Reddick’s contribution to the current popularity of the NBA and hence the income of current NBA players is particularly huge.

[BlackThought]

imagine we use this same logic in other areas. Kia cars aren't really better than cars made in the 1950s because kia isn't considered a good brand amongst its peers.

[michaelm]

imagine we use this same logic in other areas. Kia cars aren't really better than cars made in the 1950s because kia isn't considered a good brand amongst its peers.

As I just said I think West’s point was that back in the day people had to have side jobs because their basketball income wasn’t huge, rather than the players being firemen, milkmen or plumbers by primary avocation who happened to play basketball.

[BlackThought]

imagine we use this same logic in other areas. Kia cars aren't really better than cars made in the 1950s because kia isn't considered a good brand amongst its peers.

As I just said I think West’s point was that back in the day people had to have side jobs because their basketball income wasn’t huge, rather than the players being firemen, milkmen or plumbers by avocation who happened to play basketball.

Dude the first 5 on 5 basketball game ever played those people were literally the 10 best players in the world. The amount of dominance those people have over the rest of the world was unmatched. Today we have constant debates on who the top 10 players are and a lot of them are very debatable. But those 10, oh my. You would be crazy back then to think anyone else can compete with them.

[BK_2020]

Are we going to sit here and pretend they didn't play against janitors and plumbers because we should "respect our elders?"

What JJ said was the truth. The truth is uncomfortable.

The idea they were plumbers is extremely stupid. Like really really really stupid.

As is the idea that being a plumber means you were automatically not that good at basketball.
I'm trying to figure out the logic behind the sentiment that if you worked a second job to take care of your family, you suck at basketball
Literally makes no sense. It's as logical as saying Draymond Green is a podcaster and therefore he isn't good at basketball. Or Michael Jordan was an actor and brand spokesperson, and therefore wasn't really that good at basketball.
It's funny how many people are defending the "plumbers and firefighters" comment as analysis, when it's plainly moronic and not insightful at all, not to mention not accurate as you said.

Jerry West himself said players back then couldn't dedicate themselves to the game because they held down part-time jobs out of necessity. So I guess he's plainly moronic and not insightful about his own era.

[michaelm]

Again, you don’t get his most salient point and ignore my explanation of it.

Of course the average player is better these days, although players can’t do any more than be the best of their era and the very best may still have been exceptional in other eras. I don’t see 10 Michael Jordans running around basketball courts currently, and Shaq is probably the only guy who has rivalled Wilt Chamberlain as a physical freak in 60 odd years. Certainly in another sport with a very large number of participants the guy who is very likely the best cricket batsmen ever was at his peak in the 1930s.

My reading of West’s major point is that it hardly behoves a guy who has made tens of millions of dollars or more as a role player in this era to sneer at players 50 years ago as being firemen or milkmen or whatever given they needed to have side jobs because they didn’t make all that much money playing basketball back then.

[BlackThought]

Again, you don’t get his most salient point and ignore my explanation of it.

Of course the average player is better these days, although players can’t do any more than be the best of their era and the very best may still have been exceptional in other eras. I don’t see 10 Michael Jordans running around basketball courts currently, and Shaq is probably the only guy who has rivalled Wilt Chamberlain as a physical freak in 60 odd years. Certainly in another sport with a very large number of participants the guy who is very likely the best cricket batsmen ever was at his peak in the 1930s.

My reading of West’s major point is that it hardly behoves a guy who has made tens of millions of dollars or more as a role player in this era to sneer at players 50 years ago as being firemen or milkmen or whatever given they needed to have side jobs because they didn’t make all that much money playing basketball back then.

[Sprewell4Three]

Not many top current NBA players disrespect the older players like JJ Redick and Perkins. These 2 scrubs are talking about the NBA as if they were all stars or something. They act like people didn’t see their average careers.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BlackThought]

Again, you don’t get his most salient point and ignore my explanation of it.

Of course the average player is better these days, although players can’t do any more than be the best of their era and the very best may still have been exceptional in other eras. I don’t see 10 Michael Jordans running around basketball courts currently, and Shaq is probably the only guy who has rivalled Wilt Chamberlain as a physical freak in 60 odd years. Certainly in another sport with a very large number of participants the guy who is very likely the best cricket batsmen ever was at his peak in the 1930s.

My reading of West’s major point is that it hardly behoves a guy who has made tens of millions of dollars or more as a role player in this era to sneer at players 50 years ago as being firemen or milkmen or whatever given they needed to have side jobs because they didn’t make all that much money playing basketball back then.

lol you should read your own post back and try not to laugh out loud yourself. So if Lebron came out and called those players plumber and fireman somehow those points would fundamentally change? This is the part people find ridiculous. JJ make a point, West didn't argue that point but had to bring out Redick's career numbers as if that matters. It's clear who's the bully here and just because dude's old doesn't mean he should get a pass for it.

[michaelm]

Nice straw man. I didn’t say it would be OK for any current player including LeBron to say it at all. As far as I know he has never made any comments along those lines, and I would be very surprised if he did.

[BlackThought]

This whole thing about we should thank and respect those people for "paving the way" as if those guys had that in mind when they played. Welcome to the life of a human being. When you go to work tomorrow make sure you remember that you are "paving the way" for future generations. Give yourself a pat on the back and make sure to keep that head up.

[LessEyeTest]

I looked at clips of the guys playing in the 60s and it's laughable. Missed layups from running at 100% full speed, guards shooting 15ft hooks, etc. Jerry West has absolutely no right to talk down on Redick considering high school Redick was probably a better player than peak West.

Clown

[michaelm]

This whole thing about we should thank and respect those people for "paving the way" as if those guys had that in mind when they played. Welcome to the life of a human being. When you go to work tomorrow make sure you remember that you are "paving the way" for future generations. Give yourself a pat on the back and make sure to keep that head up.

Yes Bill Russell was in no way a pioneer.