DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 (FINAL poll reset)

[cupcakesnake]

Poll results pre-Christmas:

OG Anunoby 24%
Brook Lopez 17%
Giannis 16%
Jarrett Allen 11%
Other 11%

I put new options in the poll. Embiid, Claxton, Jaren Jackson Jr, and Evan Mobley are in (Myles Turner, Wiggins, Mikal Bridges, and Anthony Davis are out for now). I'm curious if a Celtic is going to get a campaign going. Their aDRtg is 8th now and climbing. Time Lord is back. They have like 6-7 all-defense level players.

Still no Draymond or Rudy feels weird.

[eyeatoma]

Poll results pre-Christmas:

OG Anunoby 24%
Brook Lopez 17%
Giannis 16%
Jarrett Allen 11%
Other 11%

I put new options in the poll. Embiid, Claxton, Jaren Jackson Jr, and Evan Mobley are in (Myles Turner, Wiggins, Mikal Bridges, and Anthony Davis are out for now). I'm curious if a Celtic is going to get a campaign going. Their aDRtg is 8th now and climbing. Time Lord is back. They have like 6-7 all-defense level players.

Still no Draymond or Rudy feels weird.

Think you made it so we can select multiple options in the poll, which doesn't work. Think you meant to only make it so that we could change our choice right?

[Triple M]

Can anyone remember when the 10th seed won an individual award. OG is a great defender but it will be difficult for him to win because he isnt on a great defensive team. I know the other candidates have competition on their own teams but i dont think it will be enough for OG despite being the only great defender on TO

[TheLand13]

Picking apart how this poll just seems to be a popularity contest, and people say, oooh he locked down that dude.

OG - Leading the Poll

Drating - Not even on the graph https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/nba-defensive-rating-leaders-this-season
111
D Winshares - 1.3 15th league
DPBM - 1.0 38th in the league

But, he locks down them superstarzzzzz....LOL, raps fans never change.

Lopez

Drating
8th in the NBA - 107
DWS - 9th in NBA - 1.5
DPBM - 19th 1.7

Pretty strong

Bam
Drating - 109.2 - 18th in the NBA
DWS - 1.5 - 6th in the NBA
DPBM - 0.5 - 62nd in the nBA

Definite question marks but can be good for sure

Jarrett Allen
Drating - 104.5 Tied for 1st
DWS - 1.7 - 2nd
DPBM - 22nd

Also very strong

Giannis everyone yearly DPOY candidate
Drating - 4th - 105.4
DWS - 3rd 1.6
DPBM - 2.4 4th

Still a god, best so far

Bridges
D rating - 113.3, not even in the top 25
DWS 1.2 24th
DPBM 0.3 73rd in the league

Lol overrated

AD
D Rating - 106.9 7th
DWS 1.5 7th
DPBM 2.1 11th
Very strong, shame he's hurt

Everyone's other favorite advanced stats god, and apparently now an elite defender
Jokic
Drating - 109.9 22nd in the league
DWS - 1.2 29th
DPBM 1st in the league with 3.9.

This just goes to show that defensive numbers need to be taken with a grain of salt. Can't say he's elite just because he's leading in DPBM which prioritizes rebounding.

Jokic is a slightly above average defender. Much improved, but no where in the realm of a great or even good defender.

Meanwhile Embiid is not even on the poll.

Drating - 104.5 1st in the league
DWS - 1.4 11th
DPBM - 2.7 3rd

According to the advanced stats ya'll love to quote he would be 2nd or 3rd in the rankings.

This really just goes to show how much the GB just hates on Embiid, and refuses to give him his flowers. I get he wasn't good the 1st 2 weeks since then he has anchored the Sixers having the 2nd best defense. Really need to be on the poll. He is a top 3 defender in the league, and most definitely a DPOY candidate.

Here are my sources:

Drating
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/nba-defensive-rating-leaders-this-season
DWS
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2023_advanced.html#advanced_stats::dws
DPBM
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2023_advanced.html#advanced_stats::dbpm

Man, you have this unhealthy persecution complex/Embiid obsession going on where any ounce of objectivity is out the window when it comes to the Raptors or Jokic. You gotta chill on that - watch some other teams play, enjoy the scenery. When it comes to understanding defensive impact there is no substitute to watching these guys play; publically available defensive metrics will always be massively flawed (too skewed by teammates/team play styles among other things), as you can see in the numbers you yourself have pasted.

Just to further clarify for you how these numbers are massively flawed - let's look at Drating where Embiid is #1. Let's look at some of the names of the rest of the leaders:

At #5 we have D'Anthony Melton. Fine bench piece, but not even his mother would claim that he's an elite defender. At #11 we have Toby Harris - a notoriously porous defender.

Let's look at the Bucks - Freak #4, Brook #8, Jrue #12. Cool, respectable. But wait, is that Bobby Portis at #10? Jevon Carter at #14??

Cleveland is even more egregious. Allen #2, Mobley #3. Weird, but ok. But wait, is that Donovan freaking Mitchell at #13? Darious Garland at #16? Levert at #20? 3 notoriously porous defenders suddenly evolved into the best in the league?

I won't even mention Luka being on the top defender's list, that one is next level crazy.

And don't get me started on DWS leaders. I encourage folks to read that one for a laugh. Mitchell ranked #7, Luka #9, Harris #10, Melton #11....and you have to scroll waaay down to find Jrue at #31, Caruso at #52, Smart #86, Draymond #100. Come on now.


Anyway, I hope you see the point. These types of stats are driven by the team style as much or moreso than the player and shouldn't be used for anything more than entertainment.

Melton is absolutely an elite defender. Might want to take your own advice and watch other teams sometime.

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk

Yeah I agree, this poster needs to stop blindly following reputations and actually start watching the teams.

I can’t speak for the others, but Mitchell, Garland and Levert have all made strides defensively this season. Obviously they aren’t as good as their rankings imply, but they’ve become capable defensive players in their own right.

[Slade3]

Can anyone remember when the 10th seed won an individual award. OG is a great defender but it will be difficult for him to win because he isnt on a great defensive team. I know the other candidates have competition on their own teams but i dont think it will be enough for OG despite being the only great defender on TO

Raptors have a bunch of guys who are good defenders. Pascal and Fred particularly.

[Triple M]

Can anyone remember when the 10th seed won an individual award. OG is a great defender but it will be difficult for him to win because he isnt on a great defensive team. I know the other candidates have competition on their own teams but i dont think it will be enough for OG despite being the only great defender on TO

Raptors have a bunch of guys who are good defenders. Pascal and Fred particularly.

I didnt say they weren't good but the Raps overall are an above avg to good defense not a good to great defense. They are also the 10th seed currently so i think for OG to have a realistic chance the Raps need to be out of the play in and be closer to being a top 5 defensive team. Being healthier should help the rest of the way but those are the obstacles that exist for OG.

[ty 4191]

Which metrics do people here use to determine the DPOY?

And, who leads in those defensive metrics?

[Slade3]

Can anyone remember when the 10th seed won an individual award. OG is a great defender but it will be difficult for him to win because he isnt on a great defensive team. I know the other candidates have competition on their own teams but i dont think it will be enough for OG despite being the only great defender on TO

Raptors have a bunch of guys who are good defenders. Pascal and Fred particularly.

I didnt say they weren't good but the Raps overall are an above avg to good defense not a good to great defense. They are also the 10th seed currently so i think for OG to have a realistic chance the Raps need to be out of the play in and be closer to being a top 5 defensive team. Being healthier should help the rest of the way but those are the obstacles that exist for OG.

I'm not disagreeing about OG's chances. The Raptors need to be at least the fifth seed for him to have a shot. Having said that, the Raptors are certainly capable of being a top 10 defense team like they were last year.

[Woodsanity]

Can anyone remember when the 10th seed won an individual award. OG is a great defender but it will be difficult for him to win because he isnt on a great defensive team. I know the other candidates have competition on their own teams but i dont think it will be enough for OG despite being the only great defender on TO

The bigger problem is they are only rank 15 on defense.

If they were a top 3 defense but had a bad record due to trash offense sure.

[cupcakesnake]

Poll results pre-Christmas:

OG Anunoby 24%
Brook Lopez 17%
Giannis 16%
Jarrett Allen 11%
Other 11%

I put new options in the poll. Embiid, Claxton, Jaren Jackson Jr, and Evan Mobley are in (Myles Turner, Wiggins, Mikal Bridges, and Anthony Davis are out for now). I'm curious if a Celtic is going to get a campaign going. Their aDRtg is 8th now and climbing. Time Lord is back. They have like 6-7 all-defense level players.

Still no Draymond or Rudy feels weird.

Think you made it so we can select multiple options in the poll, which doesn't work. Think you meant to only make it so that we could change our choice right?

The poll question is who is on your DPOY ballot. I believe the DPOY ballot is 3 people, or even if it isn't, I'm asking for your top 3. It was like that on the poll the first time too.

[cupcakesnake]

Can anyone remember when the 10th seed won an individual award. OG is a great defender but it will be difficult for him to win because he isnt on a great defensive team. I know the other candidates have competition on their own teams but i dont think it will be enough for OG despite being the only great defender on TO

The bigger problem is they are only rank 15 on defense.

If they were a top 3 defense but had a bad record due to trash offense sure.

I think we get a little over fixated on team record and rankings in frozen snapshots when evaluating awards in the first half of the season.

The Raps were a top-10ish defense and then dealt with injuries. Siakam and Precious went down, and when Siakam came back OG missed 4 games. The Raps were JOKES on defense in the 4 games OG missed (120+ DRtg) and then immediately got back to business when he returned.

I think the Raps are more likely to finish as a top 10 defense if they stay healthy. Or at the very least, I know that so far their defensive struggles have had more to do with health than being a weak defensive team. They're a weird and volatile team. They force the most turnover in the league, but also give up too many easy shots (last in opponent EFG%). One of the weirdest defenses I've ever seen tbh. Knowing Nurse's track record, I think it's more likely the Raps improve over the season rather than go the other way (or stay average after getting healthy).

Like Boston was a garbage defense early in the season, but I don't think any of us were like: this is real, they will be 26th all season long. Time Lord is back now and I wouldn't be surprised to see Boston as a top 3 defense in the second half of the season. I always try to factor in what I expect to happen, and what I know about the context of teams performing well or poorly over stretches of the season. Things always always always change!

[Kurtz]

Yeah I agree, this poster needs to stop blindly following reputations and actually start watching the teams.

Did you watch the Raps-Cavs game the other night? Any lessons learned by you from that affair?

Maybe this will jog your memory - here is a SF physically bullying your dpoy candidate:

Read on Twitter

[eyeatoma]

Poll results pre-Christmas:

OG Anunoby 24%
Brook Lopez 17%
Giannis 16%
Jarrett Allen 11%
Other 11%

I put new options in the poll. Embiid, Claxton, Jaren Jackson Jr, and Evan Mobley are in (Myles Turner, Wiggins, Mikal Bridges, and Anthony Davis are out for now). I'm curious if a Celtic is going to get a campaign going. Their aDRtg is 8th now and climbing. Time Lord is back. They have like 6-7 all-defense level players.

Still no Draymond or Rudy feels weird.

Think you made it so we can select multiple options in the poll, which doesn't work. Think you meant to only make it so that we could change our choice right?

The poll question is who is on your DPOY ballot. I believe the DPOY ballot is 3 people, or even if it isn't, I'm asking for your top 3. It was like that on the poll the first time too.

Gotcha

[TheLand13]

Yeah I agree, this poster needs to stop blindly following reputations and actually start watching the teams.

Did you watch the Raps-Cavs game the other night? Any lessons learned by you from that affair?

Maybe this will jog your memory - here is a SF physically bullying your dpoy candidate:

Read on Twitter

This might be one of the most pathetic things I’ve ever seen on this site.

First off, what does Mobley have to do with what I’m talking about? I mentioned three players, none of whom are Mobley.

Second, in what way is Mobley our DPOY candidate? He’s not even the best defensive player on our own team (he will be eventually).

Third, Barnes has ten plus pounds on Mobley and is a stronger player who is also shorter. Him being able to bully Mobley doesn’t surprise me at all, Mobley needs to put on more muscle. I feel like this is common knowledge.

Fourth, who cares? Mobley has still been having a better sophomore season. This game doesn’t really change that.

I really hope this isn’t how every Raptor fan responds to something like this. As someone who normally defends both their fan base and the team itself, this is a pretty poor look on your part. Do better or don’t bother replying.

[cupcakesnake]

My all-defense teams so far:

G: Jrue Holiday
G: OG Anunoby
F: Bam Adebayo
F: Jaren Jackson Jr.
C: Jarrett Allen

G: Alex Caruso
G: Derrick White
F: Giannis Antetokoumpo
F: Evan Mobley
C: Brook Lopez

The guys I'm seriously considering: Anthony Davis, Joel Embiid, Mathisse Thybulle, Jaden McDaniels, PJ Tucker, De'Anthony Melton, Dillon Brooks, Jevon Carter, Quentin Grimes, Draymond Green, Nicholas Claxton, Rudy Gobert, Kevin Durant, Dorian Finney-Smith, Marcus Smart, Jayson Tatum, Ben Simmons, Ivica Zubac, Pascal Siakam, Mitchell Robinson, Herb Jones, Jimmy Butler, Myles Turner, Lu Dort

So funny that we get 4 guards and 2 centers every year. I always try to shove wings into guard spots and smaller centers into forward spots when I can. I get they want it to make the team look like a real team, but what's the point of awarding the leagues best defenders when more than half of the top 10 defenders are centers and we only get 2 of those.

[Kurtz]

Yeah I agree, this poster needs to stop blindly following reputations and actually start watching the teams.

Did you watch the Raps-Cavs game the other night? Any lessons learned by you from that affair?

Maybe this will jog your memory - here is a SF physically bullying your dpoy candidate:

Read on Twitter

This might be one of the most pathetic things I’ve ever seen on this site.

First off, what does Mobley have to do with what I’m talking about? I mentioned three players, none of whom are Mobley.

Second, in what way is Mobley our DPOY candidate? He’s not even the best defensive player on our own team (he will be eventually).

Third, Barnes has ten plus pounds on Mobley and is a stronger player who is also shorter. Him being able to bully Mobley doesn’t surprise me at all, Mobley needs to put on more muscle. I feel like this is common knowledge.

Fourth, who cares? Mobley has still been having a better sophomore season. This game doesn’t really change that.

I really hope this isn’t how every Raptor fan responds to something like this. As someone who normally defends both their fan base and the team itself, this is a pretty poor look on your part. Do better or don’t bother replying.

Don't get into hysterics. Calm down. Listen, watch, and try to learn something instead of throwing tantrums.

You were arguing that Mobley is a dpoy level defender for half of this thread - those clips are a good display at how his lower body weakness prevents him from being able to hold his own in the post right now. If you, like Mobley, no longer hold that position, that's great, let's stop talking about Mobley in the DPOY thread.

We also saw both Mobley and Allen have trouble defending in space against forwards, but let's call that a one-off.

On the other end, you saw a good display of how OG dominates whatever assignment he's on - and that assignment is usually the other team's top scorer. Again, that's back to back games now where he's held Mitchell to season lows. And he's done this all year against everyone (except Zion). That's why he's in the dpoy conversation.

[DCasey91]

My all-defense teams so far:

G: Jrue Holiday
G: OG Anunoby
F: Bam Adebayo
F: Jaren Jackson Jr.
C: Jarrett Allen

G: Alex Caruso
G: Derrick White
F: Giannis Antetokoumpo
F: Evan Mobley
C: Brook Lopez

The guys I'm seriously considering: Anthony Davis, Joel Embiid, Mathisse Thybulle, Jaden McDaniels, PJ Tucker, De'Anthony Melton, Dillon Brooks, Jevon Carter, Quentin Grimes, Draymond Green, Nicholas Claxton, Rudy Gobert, Kevin Durant, Dorian Finney-Smith, Marcus Smart, Jayson Tatum, Ben Simmons, Ivica Zubac, Pascal Siakam, Mitchell Robinson, Herb Jones, Jimmy Butler, Myles Turner, Lu Dort

So funny that we get 4 guards and 2 centers every year. I always try to shove wings into guard spots and smaller centers into forward spots when I can. I get they want it to make the team look like a real team, but what's the point of awarding the leagues best defenders when more than half of the top 10 defenders are centers and we only get 2 of those.

I think one of Embiid or Melton should be a lock imo. They’ve both been great all year it’s just that the C spot is stacked with great defenders. Melton has been incredible all season I have him comfortably over Caruso, quote me if I’m wrong but it’s basically the Sixers have had the best defence once Melton got inserted into the starting spot.

But other than good lists it’s just as you said you’ll end up with 3 centers on each All NBA team lol.

[TheLand13]

Did you watch the Raps-Cavs game the other night? Any lessons learned by you from that affair?

Maybe this will jog your memory - here is a SF physically bullying your dpoy candidate:

Read on Twitter

This might be one of the most pathetic things I’ve ever seen on this site.

First off, what does Mobley have to do with what I’m talking about? I mentioned three players, none of whom are Mobley.

Second, in what way is Mobley our DPOY candidate? He’s not even the best defensive player on our own team (he will be eventually).

Third, Barnes has ten plus pounds on Mobley and is a stronger player who is also shorter. Him being able to bully Mobley doesn’t surprise me at all, Mobley needs to put on more muscle. I feel like this is common knowledge.

Fourth, who cares? Mobley has still been having a better sophomore season. This game doesn’t really change that.

I really hope this isn’t how every Raptor fan responds to something like this. As someone who normally defends both their fan base and the team itself, this is a pretty poor look on your part. Do better or don’t bother replying.

Don't get into hysterics. Calm down. Listen, watch, and try to learn something instead of throwing tantrums.

You were arguing that Mobley is a dpoy level defender for half of this thread - those clips are a good display at how his lower body weakness prevents him from being able to hold his own in the post right now. If you, like Mobley, no longer hold that position, that's great, let's stop talking about Mobley in the DPOY thread.

We also saw both Mobley and Allen have trouble defending in space against forwards, but let's call that a one-off.

On the other end, you saw a good display of how OG dominates whatever assignment he's on - and that assignment is usually the other team's top scorer. Again, that's back to back games now where he's held Mitchell to season lows. And he's done this all year against everyone (except Zion). That's why he's in the dpoy conversation.

Show me. Show me right now where I ever once argued in this thread that Mobley deserved DPOY consideration this year, let alone over Allen. I’m not reading the rest of your post until you do.

[Kurtz]

My all-defense teams so far:

G: Jrue Holiday
G: OG Anunoby
F: Bam Adebayo
F: Jaren Jackson Jr.
C: Jarrett Allen

G: Alex Caruso
G: Derrick White
F: Giannis Antetokoumpo
F: Evan Mobley
C: Brook Lopez

The guys I'm seriously considering: Anthony Davis, Joel Embiid, Mathisse Thybulle, Jaden McDaniels, PJ Tucker, De'Anthony Melton, Dillon Brooks, Jevon Carter, Quentin Grimes, Draymond Green, Nicholas Claxton, Rudy Gobert, Kevin Durant, Dorian Finney-Smith, Marcus Smart, Jayson Tatum, Ben Simmons, Ivica Zubac, Pascal Siakam, Mitchell Robinson, Herb Jones, Jimmy Butler, Myles Turner, Lu Dort

So funny that we get 4 guards and 2 centers every year. I always try to shove wings into guard spots and smaller centers into forward spots when I can. I get they want it to make the team look like a real team, but what's the point of awarding the leagues best defenders when more than half of the top 10 defenders are centers and we only get 2 of those.

Anthony Davis won't have enough gp to be considered, but he absolutely deserves to be on that list if we're making an "up to now" list. Claxton probably too, but it's tight at the C spot.

[Kurtz]

This might be one of the most pathetic things I’ve ever seen on this site.

First off, what does Mobley have to do with what I’m talking about? I mentioned three players, none of whom are Mobley.

Second, in what way is Mobley our DPOY candidate? He’s not even the best defensive player on our own team (he will be eventually).

Third, Barnes has ten plus pounds on Mobley and is a stronger player who is also shorter. Him being able to bully Mobley doesn’t surprise me at all, Mobley needs to put on more muscle. I feel like this is common knowledge.

Fourth, who cares? Mobley has still been having a better sophomore season. This game doesn’t really change that.

I really hope this isn’t how every Raptor fan responds to something like this. As someone who normally defends both their fan base and the team itself, this is a pretty poor look on your part. Do better or don’t bother replying.

Don't get into hysterics. Calm down. Listen, watch, and try to learn something instead of throwing tantrums.

You were arguing that Mobley is a dpoy level defender for half of this thread - those clips are a good display at how his lower body weakness prevents him from being able to hold his own in the post right now. If you, like Mobley, no longer hold that position, that's great, let's stop talking about Mobley in the DPOY thread.

We also saw both Mobley and Allen have trouble defending in space against forwards, but let's call that a one-off.

On the other end, you saw a good display of how OG dominates whatever assignment he's on - and that assignment is usually the other team's top scorer. Again, that's back to back games now where he's held Mitchell to season lows. And he's done this all year against everyone (except Zion). That's why he's in the dpoy conversation.

Show me. Show me right now where I ever once argued in this thread that Mobley deserved DPOY consideration this year, let alone over Allen. I’m not reading the rest of your post until you do.

Your first post in this thread:

"OG behind the 16th ranked defense has more votes than Allen (or Mobley who’s not even in the poll) on the #1 defense that’s a full point ahead of the second place team in DRTG. Totally makes sense."

Second post:

"Mobley and Allen obviously make things easier for each other, but in order to sustain a #1 ranked defense, we basically need both guys playing at DPOY levels just to cover for all the holes elsewhere.

I don't mind OG getting mentioned as an All-Defensive Team guy. I just think he has a pretty weak case when you compare him to the rim protectors in the conversation."


Should I keep going? Do you know what selective amnesia is?