Greater Accomplishment: Lebron's 4 or Duncan's 5?

[G35]

To the people pointing out that LeBron made three different teams title contenders... do you guys understand how hard it is to succeed in the West that Duncan played in throughout his career? You guys are acting like it was a cake walk for him. The West from 2002-2014 was basically a bloodbath. Hell, in 2016 the Spurs had 67 wins that year and the Warriors still had six more wins than them, and they weren't even the ones who eliminated them.

Repeats (and even threepeats for that matter) are very hard to accomplish. I think that's something a lot of people (myself included) put a lot of stock into with LeBron's title wins in Miami, especially when you factor in how great LeBron was in both of those series. And yeah, Duncan wasn't the FMVP in all of his title wins (and hell, he probably shouldn't have won it in 2005 either). LeBron on the other hand was.

But let's put something into perspective for a second. How many times did the Spurs benefit from game changing free agent moves or trades that ultimately changed the outcome of their team? I'd be willing to be that the number of instances you could count are on one hand. And hell, off the top of my head I can't really think of any. Parker and Manu were guys that the Spurs developed with their own system. These weren't big named players who joined their team in free agency. Danny Green was an important player for the Spurs but he came to that team as a second year player out of Cleveland who didn't get any playing time with said team. We all know the story with Kawhi, who only got to San Antonio in the first place because they took a risk and traded George Hill, who was also an important player for the Spurs.

Going off that, you're looking at a team whose biggest FA pickups are the likes of... Robert Horry (EDIT: right after I hit submit I immediately remembered that the Spurs got LeMarcus Aldridge in FA, so... oops). Granted, Horry was a key factor to SA surviving against the Pistons in 05, but if that's the most notable FA pickup they have, that's pretty telling of how consistent of a system they ran. They didn't trade their first overall pick to get Kevin Love on their team. They didn't trade multiple pieces away to get Anthony Davis. The best they got was basically the equivalent of when Miami got Ray Allen. Just think about that for a moment. They had a system in place that was remarkably consistent for a very long time. It's a testament of how great of a player Tim Duncan really was, and why he's a top ten player in the history of the NBA. LeBron was the better player, and he has the most notable ring with 2016, but Duncan's five will always impress me more than LeBron's four.

Feel like these arguments give Duncan credit for things the Spurs front office is entirely responsible for. Obviously Duncan was vital to their consistency but they arent winning 5 titles if the Spurs dont get 2 massive steals in the draft with Tony Parker at 28 and Manu at 57, or making that key trade for Kawhi. Its the same thing we saw with Curry and Klay/Dray. Drafted 2 steals at the right time whos game complimented their star and whos timing of careers fit perfectly.

I understand Duncans rings are more impressive given what the front has done, but individually I dont really see and argument for Duncan over Lebron

I want to address this. So you are saying that Duncan benefitted from the Spurs drafting a 19 year old Frenchman and a 2nd round pick Argentinian and that propelled Duncan to four more titles, since he had already won without them.

Now I purposely pointed out there backgrounds because it is not immaterial. It is my opinion that Duncan's personality and background allowed the Spurs to draft foreign players. He was able to connect with these players in a way other players have not been able to do. Let me expand.

People compare Duncan with Garnett and say that KG could have done the same thing with the Spurs front office. But what are some of the things that KG has been known for?
- Not getting along with teammates; Marbury left because of the KG's contract, fighting with Wally Z, fighting with rookies and fighting with foreign players like Zaza Pachulia, Andrea Bargnani, Jose Calderon, etc.

Read this article https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2015/1/14/7539949/kevin-garnett-fight-sad-bully

Now Lebron doesn't necessarily get into fights with players but he only likes a specific kind of player. Lebron likes players that make him look good. The question has to be asked:

Why wasn't there one good draft pick during Lebron's entire career? Name the best draft pick ever for a Lebron team

Why didn't Lebron ever develop any players next to him? How common, during his career did we hear Lebron needs more help, how many years did we hear that the front office needs to make a trade to help Lebron.

What you pointed out was that the Spurs DRAFTED these players and developed them. They didn't trade for them during the year to put them over the top. We hear that this year that the Lakers are "wasting" Lebron's great year by not mortgaging their future for a chance to make the damn playoffs.

Not once did the Spurs ever have to go over the salary cap to help Duncan win. Look at the salary cap history of the Spurs:

2002 - ranked 24th (Wolves 8th)
2003 - 16th (Wolves 9th)
2004 - 24th (Wolves 4th)
2005 - no data
2006 - 10th (Wolves 14th)
2007 - 8th (Wolves 6th)

Minnesota consistently had a much higher salary cap than the Spurs, and the Spurs are winning titles. What does that say.

Then lets go Duncan vs Lebron and salary cap, let's start with the Decision when Lebron goes to Miami because Cleveland's FO was supposedly trash:

2011 - Spurs 11th (Heat 19th)
2012 - no data
2013 - Spurs 8th (Heat 3rd, Heat won title)
2014 - Spurs 19th (Heat 3rd, Spurs won title)
2015 - Spurs 17th (Cavaliers, Lebron's new team 4th)
2016 - Spurs 5th (Cavaliers 1st)
2017 - Spurs 4th (Cavaliers 1st) Duncan retires
2018 - Spurs 16th (Cavaliers 1st)

Lebron has consistently forced his teams to spend money to get him more help. That has not been the case for Tim Duncan, in fact you could say that the Spurs went the el cheapo route by relying on draft pick steals.

This is why what Tim Duncan has done is so impressive:

- Duncan didn't jump from team to team
- Duncan played in a small market that did over spend
- Duncan played for a coach that drafted a lot of foreign players when it was not popular to do so
- Many times Duncan himself was not being paid like a top 5 or 10 player

[Cavsfansince84]

I think looked at individually LeBron's are more impressive on average. If looked at as a whole in terms of continuity over a 16 year period you could argue that Duncan's are more impressive since he was essentially the franchise player for that entire period.

[Mickey8]

Lebron played 7 years for a franchise with no direction and no assets. People talk like he didnt even try. Would Duncan have led those teams to titles?

He went to join the two arguably top 10 players at that period of time. Then when the ship have started to sink again, he returned back to Cleveland which revamped their roster and when that ship started to sink, he left for LA and they got him another top 10 co star. Lebron is the definition of the ring chaser.

[xAIRNESSx]

Lebron played 7 years for a franchise with no direction and no assets. People talk like he didnt even try. Would Duncan have led those teams to titles?

He went to join the two arguably top 10 players at that period of time. Then when the ship have started to sink again, he returned back to Cleveland which revamped their roster and when that ship started to sink, he left for LA and they got him another top 10 co star. Lebron is the definition of the ring chaser.

Joining some of the worst teams in the league is ring chasing?

You think Kyrie and Love were a better supporting cast than Wade and Bosh with Miami also having a top coach and front office? Cavs were near the bottom of the league when LeBron joined them. What free agents were lining up to go join Kyrie, Wiggins and Bennett to try and win a championship?

Same thing with the Lakers. One of the worst teams in the league at the time that no one wanted to sign with but when LeBron goes there with no other stars, that's somehow ring chasing.

This honestly baffles me.

[The Laker Kid]

Timmy went up against Kobe and Shaq, and the Pistons. Way tougher opponents back then.

[Kobe187]

5 Championships is better than 4. Winning all with 1 organization is also better. Easily Duncan.

[MavsDirk41]

Lebron played 7 years for a franchise with no direction and no assets. People talk like he didnt even try. Would Duncan have led those teams to titles?

He went to join the two arguably top 10 players at that period of time. Then when the ship have started to sink again, he returned back to Cleveland which revamped their roster and when that ship started to sink, he left for LA and they got him another top 10 co star. Lebron is the definition of the ring chaser.

Joining some of the worst teams in the league is ring chasing?

You think Kyrie and Love were a better supporting cast than Wade and Bosh with Miami also having a top coach and front office? Cavs were near the bottom of the league when LeBron joined them. What free agents were lining up to go join Kyrie, Wiggins and Bennett to try and win a championship?

Same thing with the Lakers. One of the worst teams in the league at the time that no one wanted to sign with but when LeBron goes there with no other stars, that's somehow ring chasing.

This honestly baffles me.

When he went to Cleveland Kyrie had averaged 21/6/4 in only his second year in the league. He was one of the best young small guards in the nba. Love averaged 26/13/4 the previous year in Minnesota. Love was obviously one of the best power forwards in the nba without question. With James that is 3 allstars on one team.

When he went to LA he couldnt win with Ingram, Ball, Kuzma, KCP, and Josh Hart so him and Rich Paul colluded with AD to get him to LA. Davis averaged 26/12/4 the previous season in New Orleans. Basically after his first 7 years in Cleveland, he has spent the past 13 years building rosters to his liking. This seems pretty clear to me.

[MavsDirk41]

To the people pointing out that LeBron made three different teams title contenders... do you guys understand how hard it is to succeed in the West that Duncan played in throughout his career? You guys are acting like it was a cake walk for him. The West from 2002-2014 was basically a bloodbath. Hell, in 2016 the Spurs had 67 wins that year and the Warriors still had six more wins than them, and they weren't even the ones who eliminated them.

Repeats (and even threepeats for that matter) are very hard to accomplish. I think that's something a lot of people (myself included) put a lot of stock into with LeBron's title wins in Miami, especially when you factor in how great LeBron was in both of those series. And yeah, Duncan wasn't the FMVP in all of his title wins (and hell, he probably shouldn't have won it in 2005 either). LeBron on the other hand was.

But let's put something into perspective for a second. How many times did the Spurs benefit from game changing free agent moves or trades that ultimately changed the outcome of their team? I'd be willing to be that the number of instances you could count are on one hand. And hell, off the top of my head I can't really think of any. Parker and Manu were guys that the Spurs developed with their own system. These weren't big named players who joined their team in free agency. Danny Green was an important player for the Spurs but he came to that team as a second year player out of Cleveland who didn't get any playing time with said team. We all know the story with Kawhi, who only got to San Antonio in the first place because they took a risk and traded George Hill, who was also an important player for the Spurs.

Going off that, you're looking at a team whose biggest FA pickups are the likes of... Robert Horry (EDIT: right after I hit submit I immediately remembered that the Spurs got LeMarcus Aldridge in FA, so... oops). Granted, Horry was a key factor to SA surviving against the Pistons in 05, but if that's the most notable FA pickup they have, that's pretty telling of how consistent of a system they ran. They didn't trade their first overall pick to get Kevin Love on their team. They didn't trade multiple pieces away to get Anthony Davis. The best they got was basically the equivalent of when Miami got Ray Allen. Just think about that for a moment. They had a system in place that was remarkably consistent for a very long time. It's a testament of how great of a player Tim Duncan really was, and why he's a top ten player in the history of the NBA. LeBron was the better player, and he has the most notable ring with 2016, but Duncan's five will always impress me more than LeBron's four.

Feel like these arguments give Duncan credit for things the Spurs front office is entirely responsible for. Obviously Duncan was vital to their consistency but they arent winning 5 titles if the Spurs dont get 2 massive steals in the draft with Tony Parker at 28 and Manu at 57, or making that key trade for Kawhi. Its the same thing we saw with Curry and Klay/Dray. Drafted 2 steals at the right time whos game complimented their star and whos timing of careers fit perfectly.

I understand Duncans rings are more impressive given what the front has done, but individually I dont really see and argument for Duncan over Lebron

Some stars like Duncan dont want all the glory tho. Duncan doesnt have to have the ball in his hands all the time, or lead his team in shot attempts. Duncan is like the joker in that regard. You can put Duncan on any team and he will fit in. You cant say the same for James. There is proof of it. James is the better player but Duncans rings are more impressive and he is more likeable than James. Sorry but its the way it is.

[TheLand13]

To the people pointing out that LeBron made three different teams title contenders... do you guys understand how hard it is to succeed in the West that Duncan played in throughout his career? You guys are acting like it was a cake walk for him. The West from 2002-2014 was basically a bloodbath. Hell, in 2016 the Spurs had 67 wins that year and the Warriors still had six more wins than them, and they weren't even the ones who eliminated them.

Repeats (and even threepeats for that matter) are very hard to accomplish. I think that's something a lot of people (myself included) put a lot of stock into with LeBron's title wins in Miami, especially when you factor in how great LeBron was in both of those series. And yeah, Duncan wasn't the FMVP in all of his title wins (and hell, he probably shouldn't have won it in 2005 either). LeBron on the other hand was.

But let's put something into perspective for a second. How many times did the Spurs benefit from game changing free agent moves or trades that ultimately changed the outcome of their team? I'd be willing to be that the number of instances you could count are on one hand. And hell, off the top of my head I can't really think of any. Parker and Manu were guys that the Spurs developed with their own system. These weren't big named players who joined their team in free agency. Danny Green was an important player for the Spurs but he came to that team as a second year player out of Cleveland who didn't get any playing time with said team. We all know the story with Kawhi, who only got to San Antonio in the first place because they took a risk and traded George Hill, who was also an important player for the Spurs.

Going off that, you're looking at a team whose biggest FA pickups are the likes of... Robert Horry (EDIT: right after I hit submit I immediately remembered that the Spurs got LeMarcus Aldridge in FA, so... oops). Granted, Horry was a key factor to SA surviving against the Pistons in 05, but if that's the most notable FA pickup they have, that's pretty telling of how consistent of a system they ran. They didn't trade their first overall pick to get Kevin Love on their team. They didn't trade multiple pieces away to get Anthony Davis. The best they got was basically the equivalent of when Miami got Ray Allen. Just think about that for a moment. They had a system in place that was remarkably consistent for a very long time. It's a testament of how great of a player Tim Duncan really was, and why he's a top ten player in the history of the NBA. LeBron was the better player, and he has the most notable ring with 2016, but Duncan's five will always impress me more than LeBron's four.

Feel like these arguments give Duncan credit for things the Spurs front office is entirely responsible for. Obviously Duncan was vital to their consistency but they arent winning 5 titles if the Spurs dont get 2 massive steals in the draft with Tony Parker at 28 and Manu at 57, or making that key trade for Kawhi. Its the same thing we saw with Curry and Klay/Dray. Drafted 2 steals at the right time whos game complimented their star and whos timing of careers fit perfectly.

I understand Duncans rings are more impressive given what the front has done, but individually I dont really see and argument for Duncan over Lebron

Some stars like Duncan dont want all the glory tho. Duncan doesnt have to have the ball in his hands all the time, or lead his team in shot attempts. Duncan is like the joker in that regard. You can put Duncan on any team and he will fit in. You cant say the same for James. There is proof of it. James is the better player but Duncans rings are more impressive and he is more likeable than James. Sorry but its the way it is.

I'm not really sure I agree with the idea that you put Joker on any team and he'd fit in.

[Lala870]

I find it wild that people think LeBron going to Cleveland and LA were sure fire great situations.

He primarily went back to Cleveland to try and fix his image and he went to the Lakers because he wanted to live in LA.

Both teams were perennially in the bottom of the standings before he joined.

LeGM knows what hes doing. He knew very well Lakers were landing AD lol

[MavsDirk41]

Feel like these arguments give Duncan credit for things the Spurs front office is entirely responsible for. Obviously Duncan was vital to their consistency but they arent winning 5 titles if the Spurs dont get 2 massive steals in the draft with Tony Parker at 28 and Manu at 57, or making that key trade for Kawhi. Its the same thing we saw with Curry and Klay/Dray. Drafted 2 steals at the right time whos game complimented their star and whos timing of careers fit perfectly.

I understand Duncans rings are more impressive given what the front has done, but individually I dont really see and argument for Duncan over Lebron

Some stars like Duncan dont want all the glory tho. Duncan doesnt have to have the ball in his hands all the time, or lead his team in shot attempts. Duncan is like the joker in that regard. You can put Duncan on any team and he will fit in. You cant say the same for James. There is proof of it. James is the better player but Duncans rings are more impressive and he is more likeable than James. Sorry but its the way it is.

I'm not really sure I agree with the idea that you put Joker on any team and he'd fit in.

I think for the most part you could because of his unselfishness. I think he would find his place on any team. Unselfish player, doesnt need a certain amount of shots, gets his teammates involved, doesnt need the glory.

[TheLand13]

Some stars like Duncan dont want all the glory tho. Duncan doesnt have to have the ball in his hands all the time, or lead his team in shot attempts. Duncan is like the joker in that regard. You can put Duncan on any team and he will fit in. You cant say the same for James. There is proof of it. James is the better player but Duncans rings are more impressive and he is more likeable than James. Sorry but its the way it is.

I'm not really sure I agree with the idea that you put Joker on any team and he'd fit in.

I think for the most part you could because of his unselfishness. I think he would find his place on any team. Unselfish player, doesnt need a certain amount of shots, gets his teammates involved, doesnt need the glory.

If you put Joker on a team with a ball dominant PG, you are severely reducing his effectiveness as a player.

[MavsDirk41]

I'm not really sure I agree with the idea that you put Joker on any team and he'd fit in.

I think for the most part you could because of his unselfishness. I think he would find his place on any team. Unselfish player, doesnt need a certain amount of shots, gets his teammates involved, doesnt need the glory.

If you put Joker on a team with a ball dominant PG, you are severely reducing his effectiveness as a player.

Luka is a ball dominate PG but i think they would work it out just fine. Jokers assist would go down but he would still be a secondary play maker and primary playmaker when Luka sits. I would love to see these two team up

[nikster]

To the people pointing out that LeBron made three different teams title contenders... do you guys understand how hard it is to succeed in the West that Duncan played in throughout his career? You guys are acting like it was a cake walk for him. The West from 2002-2014 was basically a bloodbath. Hell, in 2016 the Spurs had 67 wins that year and the Warriors still had six more wins than them, and they weren't even the ones who eliminated them.

Repeats (and even threepeats for that matter) are very hard to accomplish. I think that's something a lot of people (myself included) put a lot of stock into with LeBron's title wins in Miami, especially when you factor in how great LeBron was in both of those series. And yeah, Duncan wasn't the FMVP in all of his title wins (and hell, he probably shouldn't have won it in 2005 either). LeBron on the other hand was.

But let's put something into perspective for a second. How many times did the Spurs benefit from game changing free agent moves or trades that ultimately changed the outcome of their team? I'd be willing to be that the number of instances you could count are on one hand. And hell, off the top of my head I can't really think of any. Parker and Manu were guys that the Spurs developed with their own system. These weren't big named players who joined their team in free agency. Danny Green was an important player for the Spurs but he came to that team as a second year player out of Cleveland who didn't get any playing time with said team. We all know the story with Kawhi, who only got to San Antonio in the first place because they took a risk and traded George Hill, who was also an important player for the Spurs.

Going off that, you're looking at a team whose biggest FA pickups are the likes of... Robert Horry (EDIT: right after I hit submit I immediately remembered that the Spurs got LeMarcus Aldridge in FA, so... oops). Granted, Horry was a key factor to SA surviving against the Pistons in 05, but if that's the most notable FA pickup they have, that's pretty telling of how consistent of a system they ran. They didn't trade their first overall pick to get Kevin Love on their team. They didn't trade multiple pieces away to get Anthony Davis. The best they got was basically the equivalent of when Miami got Ray Allen. Just think about that for a moment. They had a system in place that was remarkably consistent for a very long time. It's a testament of how great of a player Tim Duncan really was, and why he's a top ten player in the history of the NBA. LeBron was the better player, and he has the most notable ring with 2016, but Duncan's five will always impress me more than LeBron's four.

Feel like these arguments give Duncan credit for things the Spurs front office is entirely responsible for. Obviously Duncan was vital to their consistency but they arent winning 5 titles if the Spurs dont get 2 massive steals in the draft with Tony Parker at 28 and Manu at 57, or making that key trade for Kawhi. Its the same thing we saw with Curry and Klay/Dray. Drafted 2 steals at the right time whos game complimented their star and whos timing of careers fit perfectly.

I understand Duncans rings are more impressive given what the front has done, but individually I dont really see and argument for Duncan over Lebron

I want to address this. So you are saying that Duncan benefitted from the Spurs drafting a 19 year old Frenchman and a 2nd round pick Argentinian and that propelled Duncan to four more titles, since he had already won without them.

Now I purposely pointed out there backgrounds because it is not immaterial. It is my opinion that Duncan's personality and background allowed the Spurs to draft foreign players. He was able to connect with these players in a way other players have not been able to do. Let me expand.

People compare Duncan with Garnett and say that KG could have done the same thing with the Spurs front office. But what are some of the things that KG has been known for?
- Not getting along with teammates; Marbury left because of the KG's contract, fighting with Wally Z, fighting with rookies and fighting with foreign players like Zaza Pachulia, Andrea Bargnani, Jose Calderon, etc.

Read this article https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2015/1/14/7539949/kevin-garnett-fight-sad-bully

Now Lebron doesn't necessarily get into fights with players but he only likes a specific kind of player. Lebron likes players that make him look good. The question has to be asked:

Why wasn't there one good draft pick during Lebron's entire career? Name the best draft pick ever for a Lebron team

Why didn't Lebron ever develop any players next to him? How common, during his career did we hear Lebron needs more help, how many years did we hear that the front office needs to make a trade to help Lebron.

What you pointed out was that the Spurs DRAFTED these players and developed them. They didn't trade for them during the year to put them over the top. We hear that this year that the Lakers are "wasting" Lebron's great year by not mortgaging their future for a chance to make the damn playoffs.

Not once did the Spurs ever have to go over the salary cap to help Duncan win. Look at the salary cap history of the Spurs:

2002 - ranked 24th (Wolves 8th)
2003 - 16th (Wolves 9th)
2004 - 24th (Wolves 4th)
2005 - no data
2006 - 10th (Wolves 14th)
2007 - 8th (Wolves 6th)

Minnesota consistently had a much higher salary cap than the Spurs, and the Spurs are winning titles. What does that say.

Then lets go Duncan vs Lebron and salary cap, let's start with the Decision when Lebron goes to Miami because Cleveland's FO was supposedly trash:

2011 - Spurs 11th (Heat 19th)
2012 - no data
2013 - Spurs 8th (Heat 3rd, Heat won title)
2014 - Spurs 19th (Heat 3rd, Spurs won title)
2015 - Spurs 17th (Cavaliers, Lebron's new team 4th)
2016 - Spurs 5th (Cavaliers 1st)
2017 - Spurs 4th (Cavaliers 1st) Duncan retires
2018 - Spurs 16th (Cavaliers 1st)

Lebron has consistently forced his teams to spend money to get him more help. That has not been the case for Tim Duncan, in fact you could say that the Spurs went the el cheapo route by relying on draft pick steals.

This is why what Tim Duncan has done is so impressive:

- Duncan didn't jump from team to team
- Duncan played in a small market that did over spend
- Duncan played for a coach that drafted a lot of foreign players when it was not popular to do so
- Many times Duncan himself was not being paid like a top 5 or 10 player

Again you're just describing a very successful front office.

What young guy of any talent did Lebron teams trade away? What young guys played around him?

[mudsak]

If Duncan had been in the game during those final possessions of that Heat/Spurs Finals... Bosh never would have been able to nab that rebound and kick it out to Ray Allen to take that series. Pop completely blew that series on that decision alone. Duncan would have been 6, Bron 3... and Duncan 2-0 vs Lebron.

Duncan, despite all is greatness/achievements... gotta be one of the most disrespected/under-appreciated greats of the last 40yrs.

[DoctorX]

I'd you're going by raw stats Duncan just averaged 16 and 9 on 56 TS% in the 14 playoff run. That was an impressive rum because of what the Spurs did as a team, not what anybody, including Duncan, did individually

Spurs were like the '04 PIstons during that title run. I feel their stars were almost all equal in value much like the '04 Pistons.

Well thats kinda my point. I feel like that speaks as much to the strength of their front office and coaching as it does to Duncan. So how do you separate the achievement of the franchise vs the individual

My original post was to a response by a poster who said Kawhi carried Duncan to the '14 title when that wasn't true. Are you trying to argue now that Duncan was carried by the front office?

[DoctorX]

If Duncan had been in the game during those final possessions of that Heat/Spurs Finals... Bosh never would have been able to nab that rebound and kick it out to Ray Allen to take that series. Pop completely blew that series on that decision alone. Duncan would have been 6, Bron 3... and Duncan 2-0 vs Lebron.

Duncan, despite all is greatness/achievements... gotta be one of the most disrespected/under-appreciated greats of the last 40yrs.

A combination of so many things come into play of why Duncan is disrespected which is he isn't charismatic, his game wasn't flashy, wasn't a media whore, and is an introvert along with playing in a small market. If a few of those things I listed were changed up he would be respected.

[PedroFlu]

Anybody find it ironic that media/fans bring up Jordan's Finals record when comparing him to the other greats but then just dismiss Duncan's Finals record when it comes to ranking him to others. Duncan actually has a better Finals record than Lebron, Kobe, and Shaq but you rarely hear anybody cite that as reason why he should be ranked over all of them. Odd.

Right? Timmy's 5-1 in the Finals, and could've had 6-0 if not for free throws and bad positioning for a rebound by Boris Diaw.

Duncan is very overlooked at this point. To me there is something to be said for being the backbone that the entire organization builds around.

Lebron played 7 years for a franchise with no direction and no assets. People talk like he didnt even try. Would Duncan have led those teams to titles?

No, but LeBron then swung the pendulum the other direction; I think Duncan would have the same # of chips as LeBron given the same teams for career. It's possible Duncan loses 2016 but wins in 2011.

People don't care as much about those 7 years because of what LeBron did after. Honestly I think his mistake was when he left the Heat. He had a good organization, structure, and coach finally. He should have kept building in Miami but he went back to Cleveland because they accumulated assets while LeBron was playing for the Heat and the Heat were depleted.

I disagree. It was clear LeBron was dragging that Miami team already in the 2013 RS, but specially in 2014. Wade declined dramatically because of his knees, Bosh also had health problems.

Had he stayed, I think he would have lost around 3 yrs of his peak with Bosh's salary on payroll despite the desease and Wade's contract.

He was opportunistic going back to Cle, but he was absolutely on a sinking ship in Miami.

[PedroFlu]

Lebron played 7 years for a franchise with no direction and no assets. People talk like he didnt even try. Would Duncan have led those teams to titles?

He went to join the two arguably top 10 players at that period of time. Then when the ship have started to sink again, he returned back to Cleveland which revamped their roster and when that ship started to sink, he left for LA and they got him another top 10 co star. Lebron is the definition of the ring chaser.

No it isnt. To say he went to LA to ring chase is pathetic. And Cavs return was a good opportunity, but he was the heart and soul of those Cavs teams. Forming a contending team from the scratch that is highly dependable on him can only be considerad ringchasing by angry haters.

[Goomba3666]

Duncan's 5th came by beating Lebron and the Heat by an NBA Finals record margin (before KD did it).

I think that slaughter in 2014 made Lebron return to Cleveland as well. Also Important to note that Tim Ducan was in an interview before the Finals saying that they wanted the Miami Heat.

Think about that - that's how his 5th ring came about.