Cade Cunningham - Any Concerns?

[JackTalkThai]

Players with 200+ points and 50+ assists this season:

Nikola Jokic (605 career games)
Luka Doncic (338 career games)
Cade Cunningham (85 career games)

TS%: 51.3
TOV: 5.4 per game
On-Off: -8.3

Nobody is fooled by these empty counting stats. He has been terrible.

I’m so glad we no longer use those empty counting stats like “points scored” to decide the winner of games. The team with the better TS% absolutely is the better team and deserves the W. I’m glad the NBA made that change.

Narrow-focused advanced analytics are the far superior method of deciding who is a productive player and who isn’t. Pretty much anyone in the league who plays 30+ minutes a game can put up 33-8-8. The advanced metrics will all tell you as much.

[Godymas]

Dumbass thread

33 8 8

And had so many in and out shots.

context matters

[JackTalkThai]

For the season he is now averaging 24.0/3.7/7.1 on 42/33/86 splits. Not amazing sure, but also not worthy of some of the vitriol in this thread.

Why use raw percentage instead of ts%? I think he ends up a mid to low level Allstar but 51ts is horrible.

Sent from my SM-A528B using RealGM mobile app

Through the first 85 games of his career, LeBron James (ever hear of him?) had a .490 TS%. Take a wild guess why a player like LeBron who had a similar helio-centric playing style to Cunningham and was also playing on a bad team like Cade would struggle early on in his career with TS%.

Take your time. I’ll hang up and listen.

[Godymas]

For the season he is now averaging 24.0/3.7/7.1 on 42/33/86 splits. Not amazing sure, but also not worthy of some of the vitriol in this thread.

Why use raw percentage instead of ts%? I think he ends up a mid to low level Allstar but 51ts is horrible.

Sent from my SM-A528B using RealGM mobile app

Through the first 85 games of his career, LeBron James (ever hear of him?) had a .490 TS%. Take a wild guess why a player like LeBron who had a similar helio-centric playing style to Cunningham and was also playing on a bad team like Cade would struggle early on in his career with TS%.

Take your time. I’ll hang up and listen.

Actually LeBron averaged 49% TS for his rookie season which was 79 games.

In his 2nd year in the first 5 games his TS immediately jumped to 56% and he averaged 55% for the whole season

[JackTalkThai]

Why use raw percentage instead of ts%? I think he ends up a mid to low level Allstar but 51ts is horrible.

Sent from my SM-A528B using RealGM mobile app

Through the first 85 games of his career, LeBron James (ever hear of him?) had a .490 TS%. Take a wild guess why a player like LeBron who had a similar helio-centric playing style to Cunningham and was also playing on a bad team like Cade would struggle early on in his career with TS%.

Take your time. I’ll hang up and listen.

Actually LeBron averaged 49% TS for his rookie season which was 79 games.

In his 2nd year in the first 5 games his TS immediately jumped to 56% and he averaged 55% for the whole season

His 85 game career TS% did not jump from .488 to .560 over just a 5 game stretch. If you want to add additional context, factor in the first 6 games of his 2nd season and present to the class LBJ’s exact initial 85 game TS%.

The reality you will find from all of that effort is that it was still below Cade’s current TS% and the complete essence & entirety of the point that was made still stands. Which is exactly why you tried to obfuscate the point with empty fodder.

[JackTalkThai]

Why use raw percentage instead of ts%? I think he ends up a mid to low level Allstar but 51ts is horrible.

Sent from my SM-A528B using RealGM mobile app

Through the first 85 games of his career, LeBron James (ever hear of him?) had a .490 TS%. Take a wild guess why a player like LeBron who had a similar helio-centric playing style to Cunningham and was also playing on a bad team like Cade would struggle early on in his career with TS%.

Take your time. I’ll hang up and listen.

Actually LeBron averaged 49% TS for his rookie season which was 79 games.

In his 2nd year in the first 5 games his TS immediately jumped to 56% and he averaged 55% for the whole season

And since you probably lack the self-defeating initiative to discredit yourself and in turn won’t do the math. I’ll do it for you.

LeBron averaged a .535 TS% through the first 6 games of his second season. After adding those games to the .488 TS% of his first season (79 games) you are left with an 85 game TS% of .491.

And is that figure better, the same or worse than Cade’s current & admittedly substandard .503 TS%?

Does my point remain? Yes it does.

[moderndarwin]

Why is anyone comparing Cade and young Lebron lol. This kid is good but he’s not really anything special. He may grow into it but he’s at best a modern day Paul Pierce. Stats nowadays are a solid 10% higher so let’s not just compare counting stats

[JackTalkThai]

Why is anyone comparing Cade and young Lebron lol. This kid is good but he’s not really anything special. He may grow into it but he’s at best a modern day Paul Pierce. Stats nowadays are a solid 10% higher so let’s not just compare counting stats

He was being compared because 1) it was incorrectly stated above that all past #1 picks who ever amounted to anything of substance all hit the ground running (or at least jogging better than Cade has thus far) as far as shooting efficiency goes and 2) the first 85 game comp btwn the two was as apt as one could possibly find as both first overall picks were helio-centric high-usage point forwards playing on bad teams.

It wasn’t a comparison of their abilities nor was it an extrapolation of Cade’s future trajectory. Cade will never in a million years become LeBron. It was simply a rookie season (or first 85 games) comparison to show why those types of players in similar types of situations are often inefficient shooters and players as rookies.

[CptCrunch]

This is comical at this point.

The first 10 games LeBron stepped on the court, everyone with eyes can see what made LeBron special. There is no need to count whatever inefficinet stats LeBron had put up back in the days 20 years ago.

Cade is **statistically** one of the worst players in the NBA right now. His high usage and negative impact makes him one of the most deterimental players in the league to winning basketball. He is literally by all metrics playing below replacement level. His gaudy high scoring numbers are caused by the huge number of possessions he uses. Cade is 216 points on 210 effective possession. (Note that this is not saying Cade is literally unplayable; assuming the stast holds, this suggest that Cade cannot be used in his current role. When he is forced to play in his current role, he becomes one of the worst players in the league by impact. And this is quite bad for a #1 pick in his third year; no him playing 80 games doesn't make him a 2nd year player or else we can basically call Zion a second year player right now; and I have never god damn never heard that argument from any Pelicans fan)

Cade is:
8th percentile (188/204) in BPM
2rd percentile (444/453) in WS
1st percentile (449/453) in VORP

(Lesson for the kids, this is just a rank percentile; it does not take into account distribution of the statistics. Percentile is better when it is high. Jokic is in the 99.5+ percentile for all 3 stats as he is ranked #1 in all 3)

People are still propping Cade up like a golden buddha because he was drafted as the #1 pick. NBA fans in general need to forget about draft position after about a year or two in the NBA.

[zero rings]

Players with 200+ points and 50+ assists this season:

Nikola Jokic (605 career games)
Luka Doncic (338 career games)
Cade Cunningham (85 career games)

TS%: 51.3
TOV: 5.4 per game
On-Off: -8.3

Nobody is fooled by these empty counting stats. He has been terrible.

I’m so glad we no longer use those empty counting stats like “points scored” to decide the winner of games. The team with the better TS% absolutely is the better team and deserves the W. I’m glad the NBA made that change.

Narrow-focused advanced analytics are the far superior method of deciding who is a productive player and who isn’t. Pretty much anyone in the league who plays 30+ minutes a game can put up 33-8-8. The advanced metrics will all tell you as much.

How do you think a team ends up with more points scored?

By scoring more points on their possessions than the other team. I.e., efficiency.

I hate the term "advanced analytics" because there is actually nothing advanced about it. Making shots is good and missing shots is bad. Scoring points is better than not scoring points.

I can't tell if you actually don't understand this or if you're just playing dumb to defend your guy.

[Kalamazoo317]

If the stats are showing that Cade is detrimental to winning, they’re not very good stats. He hasn’t been perfect but the Pistons would very clearly be much worse without him. Some of y’all need to put away the calculators and watch a game.

[Roger Murdock]

Through the first 85 games of his career, LeBron James (ever hear of him?) had a .490 TS%. Take a wild guess why a player like LeBron who had a similar helio-centric playing style to Cunningham and was also playing on a bad team like Cade would struggle early on in his career with TS%.

Take your time. I’ll hang up and listen.

Actually LeBron averaged 49% TS for his rookie season which was 79 games.

In his 2nd year in the first 5 games his TS immediately jumped to 56% and he averaged 55% for the whole season

His 85 game career TS% did not jump from .488 to .560 over just a 5 game stretch. If you want to add additional context, factor in the first 6 games of his 2nd season and present to the class LBJ’s exact initial 85 game TS%.

The reality you will find from all of that effort is that it was still below Cade’s current TS% and the complete essence & entirety of the point that was made still stands. Which is exactly why you tried to obfuscate the point with empty fodder.

The point you are trying to make is beyond stupid

The league average TS% was 52% when LeBron was a rookie and 58% now. The sport is completely different

Furthermore - LeBron was 18 - 19 YO as a rookie. Cade is 22.

Furthermore - LeBron came into the league without a jump shot and had to create his own offense by getting to the rim. Cades supposed strength is his jumper and he doesn’t have the athletic profile to get easy looks or get to the basket. So the potential growth trajectory is wildly different

The point you are trying to make is so painful bad.

[cgf]

Actually LeBron averaged 49% TS for his rookie season which was 79 games.

In his 2nd year in the first 5 games his TS immediately jumped to 56% and he averaged 55% for the whole season

His 85 game career TS% did not jump from .488 to .560 over just a 5 game stretch. If you want to add additional context, factor in the first 6 games of his 2nd season and present to the class LBJ’s exact initial 85 game TS%.

The reality you will find from all of that effort is that it was still below Cade’s current TS% and the complete essence & entirety of the point that was made still stands. Which is exactly why you tried to obfuscate the point with empty fodder.

The point you are trying to make is beyond stupid

The league average TS% was 52% when LeBron was a rookie and 58% now. The sport is completely different

Furthermore - LeBron was 18 - 19 YO as a rookie. Cade is 22.

Furthermore - LeBron came into the league without a jump shot and had to create his own offense by getting to the rim. Cades supposed strength is his jumper and he doesn’t have the athletic profile to get easy looks or get to the basket. So the potential growth trajectory is wildly different

The point you are trying to make is so painful bad.

Pretty sure that poster's point was that LeBron having a bad TS after 85 games didn't stop him from being successful, not that Cade = LeBron...

[Mr Peanut]

If the stats are showing that Cade is detrimental to winning, they’re not very good stats. He hasn’t been perfect but the Pistons would very clearly be much worse without him. Some of y’all need to put away the calculators and watch a game.

This. Posters are coming at this thread with acronymed advanced stats from all angles, but anyone actually watching the Pistons games can see that the only reason the Pistons stay within 10 points of some teams is Cade. He's had a few times this season where he has taken over the game and put the team on his back, but unfortunately there's just not enough talent around him to sustain the momentum created to propel the Pistons to a win.

I think if Detroit was fully healthy from the get go there's a reasonable chance the team is 4-5 or better at this point in the season, and Cade wouldn't be catching nearly as many strays.

[Godymas]

Through the first 85 games of his career, LeBron James (ever hear of him?) had a .490 TS%. Take a wild guess why a player like LeBron who had a similar helio-centric playing style to Cunningham and was also playing on a bad team like Cade would struggle early on in his career with TS%.

Take your time. I’ll hang up and listen.

Actually LeBron averaged 49% TS for his rookie season which was 79 games.

In his 2nd year in the first 5 games his TS immediately jumped to 56% and he averaged 55% for the whole season

His 85 game career TS% did not jump from .488 to .560 over just a 5 game stretch. If you want to add additional context, factor in the first 6 games of his 2nd season and present to the class LBJ’s exact initial 85 game TS%.

The reality you will find from all of that effort is that it was still below Cade’s current TS% and the complete essence & entirety of the point that was made still stands. Which is exactly why you tried to obfuscate the point with empty fodder.

? what kind of convoluted logic is this

Cade Cunningham in the first 9 games of his second season is shooting 51% TS, that's where the 51% came from.

Cade Cunningham played 76 total games in his first 2 seasons. LeBron had a 79 game rookie year.

Obviously his 85 game TS is not going to jump up to 56% because it's weighed down by his rookie year, but it is pointless to try and include his numbers from the previous year into this calculation, but rather you judge the player the way they played at the moment.

LeBron improved at his 80th NBA game to start averaging 56% TS, this is an objective fact. Of course if you want to add his entire rookie year into the equation it will weigh it down, but you didn't add Cade's worse TS from his first 2 years into his calculation.

That's right, the 51% TS is the MOST positive and CAREER HIGH he's ever posted.

[Godymas]

Through the first 85 games of his career, LeBron James (ever hear of him?) had a .490 TS%. Take a wild guess why a player like LeBron who had a similar helio-centric playing style to Cunningham and was also playing on a bad team like Cade would struggle early on in his career with TS%.

Take your time. I’ll hang up and listen.

Actually LeBron averaged 49% TS for his rookie season which was 79 games.

In his 2nd year in the first 5 games his TS immediately jumped to 56% and he averaged 55% for the whole season

And since you probably lack the self-defeating initiative to discredit yourself and in turn won’t do the math. I’ll do it for you.

LeBron averaged a .535 TS% through the first 6 games of his second season. After adding those games to the .488 TS% of his first season (79 games) you are left with an 85 game TS% of .491.

And is that figure better, the same or worse than Cade’s current & admittedly substandard .503 TS%?

Does my point remain? Yes it does.

No it does not because as someone else stated, league average TS when LeBron was a rookie was 53% and today it's 58% therefore Cade Cunningham is many more standard deviations away from the average than LeBron was at that point in time.

Context matters, I'd recommend you take a collegiate level stats course.

[Godymas]

His 85 game career TS% did not jump from .488 to .560 over just a 5 game stretch. If you want to add additional context, factor in the first 6 games of his 2nd season and present to the class LBJ’s exact initial 85 game TS%.

The reality you will find from all of that effort is that it was still below Cade’s current TS% and the complete essence & entirety of the point that was made still stands. Which is exactly why you tried to obfuscate the point with empty fodder.

The point you are trying to make is beyond stupid

The league average TS% was 52% when LeBron was a rookie and 58% now. The sport is completely different

Furthermore - LeBron was 18 - 19 YO as a rookie. Cade is 22.

Furthermore - LeBron came into the league without a jump shot and had to create his own offense by getting to the rim. Cades supposed strength is his jumper and he doesn’t have the athletic profile to get easy looks or get to the basket. So the potential growth trajectory is wildly different

The point you are trying to make is so painful bad.

Pretty sure that poster's point was that LeBron having a bad TS after 85 games didn't stop him from being successful, not that Cade = LeBron...

which is still incorrect because LeBron was better compared to the rest of the league than Cade is today

LeBron's team stats were better than Cade's has ever been

it's idiotic to compare Cade to LeBron anyways, they have very little in common outside of being the #1 pick

[reanimator]

If Cade were to end up a good #2 option on a contending team, it would not make him a failure as a #1 pick. That is still a very good outcome especially in a draft that honestly did not yield a #1 option. The concern should be how fast the Pistons FO realizes what Cade is and adapts their rebuild to finding that #1 for Cade to compliment rather than building around Cade.

[Kalamazoo317]

It's not yet clear if there was a #1 option in that draft. Cade's still got as good of a chance as anyone in that draft of being one, though.

[cgf]

The point you are trying to make is beyond stupid

The league average TS% was 52% when LeBron was a rookie and 58% now. The sport is completely different

Furthermore - LeBron was 18 - 19 YO as a rookie. Cade is 22.

Furthermore - LeBron came into the league without a jump shot and had to create his own offense by getting to the rim. Cades supposed strength is his jumper and he doesn’t have the athletic profile to get easy looks or get to the basket. So the potential growth trajectory is wildly different

The point you are trying to make is so painful bad.

Pretty sure that poster's point was that LeBron having a bad TS after 85 games didn't stop him from being successful, not that Cade = LeBron...

which is still incorrect because LeBron was better compared to the rest of the league than Cade is today

LeBron's team stats were better than Cade's has ever been

it's idiotic to compare Cade to LeBron anyways, they have very little in common outside of being the #1 pick

The point seems to be going right over some of your heads. Nobody is comparing LeBron to Cade. The point that poster was trying to make was simply that one of the greatest players of all time had a bad TS through 85 games, so a bad TS after 85 games on its own doesn't doom a prospect to failure.

Not that LeBron's league-relative-TS was as bad as Cade's, not that Cade would be better than LeBron, or is even near his level. Just that LeBron's TS was well below league average after 85 games and he still turned out ok. So cade wouldn't be the first #1 pick to have a bad TS after 85 games and still succeed, if he does make it.