No free pass for Lebron

[VanWest82]

Explain the loss to the Magic in the ECF. Explain never beating Bird when it mattered.

There is zero argument that Jordan was anything other than a massive positive vs. those Celtics teams.

It doesn't matter, he failed. Apply the LeBron standard; so, MJ was the problem.

95 Magic series was a disappointment. Failure seems a little harsh. Statistically, he was still the best player in the series but he was also out of shape from playing baseball and ran out of gas.

It doesn't matter, he failed. Apply the LeBron standard; so, MJ was the problem.

I don't count the last couple years where Lebron got hurt and still played reasonably well in the playoffs as failures either. 2011 Finals was a failure.

So applying the LeBron standard means every year MJ didn't win a ring holds the same weight of failure.

Do you now see how stupid the application of such logic is?

There's no such thing as the Lebron standard or the Michael standard.

If you're a main reason why your team won, you get credit for that. If you're a main reason why your team lost, you get credit for that too. Wizards lost in part because Jordan got hurt and wasn't the same guy anymore. He gets credit for the loss. He was also really old. No one is blaming Lebron for being old and losing here. It's that he quit on his team last night...again.

Lebron gets credit for losing to the Mavs. He gets credit for losing to the Spurs in 07. I don't credit him for losing to Warriors. He did everything he could to put those teams on his back (perhaps save for 2018 when he injured himself, but even then on the whole he was good enough to avoid serious criticism). I don't credit Jordan for losing in any of the non-Wizards years. He did everything he could to put his teams on his back (perhaps save for 95 when he back out of shape, but even then on the whole he was good enough to avoid serious criticism).

I would apply this same logic to anyone in the history of the league.

[Patches Perry]

Sometimes these threads end up proving the very thing they're trying to disprove. LeBron is held to a standard even Michael Jordan isn't held to by his own fans and supporters.

Regardless of whether a 39yo LeBron's 27/8/6 in a game 1 loss against the #2 Nuggets proves he isn't the GOAT, no other GOAT candidate is held to anywhere close to the same standard. The current consensus GOAT was getting praises heaped on him for scoring 20ppg on 20 shots per game on one of the 10 worst teams in the league who couldn't even make the playoffs in the east, despite the 8th seed only winning 37 games. That's how we view our current GOAT. LeBron is held to an insane standard and ironically, that in itself shows you that LeBron obviously has a firm spot in the conversation.

between this post and your Luka post a few minutes ago where you brush off criticism by posting box score pts/reb/ast and be like "you cant say they had a bad game" really is illuminating to me. this is the new era ball, everyone gets their stats. it has nothing to do with playing good basketball. theres no superstar thats gonna go up there and just put up some box score stinker nowadays 99.99% of the time. these numbers really trickin you guys badly

Can you cite the Luka post I made? I legitimately have no idea which post you're talking about, and I'm doubtful I said anything to that effect because I don't think Luka played very well today.

You say that the new era only cares about stats, but I'd argue that the old era only cares about rings/wins (at least when it's convenient to them). The truth is, both of these absolute positions are wrong and simplistic when evaluating individual players. My position is that we must take a more holistic approach to looking at all factors.

Again, my problem with LeBron criticisms most of the time is that they aren't actually criticisms of LeBron's performance at all. They are simply citing that the team LeBron plays on lost a game. That's not inherently a criticism of LeBron.

[OdomFan]

I'll say it again, if MJ gets a pass for every single failure, so does everyone else.

What failures? Are you serisouly trying to pin MJ losing to Bucks even though he was the best player in the series because he had Orlando Woolridge? He didn't do enough vs. Celtics in 86 for you?

Jordan got hurt in 01 right before all star and shouldn't have played after that, so in that context he arguably held back the Wizards for a year when they should've been trying to figure out a new path forward. There are no other failures. His teams lost sometimes, but not because MJ failed.

Do you all now see?

MJ never overcame Bird, only beat Magic on the tail end of his career, failed against the Pistons a few times, lost to Shaq, and admitted he was lucky enough to duck Hakeem, and every year in a Wizards jersey conveniently doesn't count, but he has no failures.

Ok? Lebron never ovrcame Dwight Howard or Dirks team in a playoff series either. Does that matter? not really if you ask me. A star can't, and shouldn't have to worry about beating all the best talents in a series. You play who you play. In Bird and MJs case. Timing just wasn't there. Jordans team lost in 86 and 87, and by the time the Bulls roster improved to be at the level that they could challenge those guys. Bird was eventually on his way out the door because of injuries sustained off the court on his mommas ranch.

You say Magic was at the tail end of his career. What makes you say that? He was playing at a high level and had a great team around him. Only thing that stopped that was his getting HIV which he announced during the 91-92 season. That doesn't take anything away from the Bulls victory in the 90-91 seasons playoffs.

His team lost to Shaq, but then what? he and his team came back and beat them back in the next seasons playoffs. that matters too. Its all about what happens next. I can't speak for everyone, but for me I've never said the Wizards years don't count. Its just not something that should completely destroy MJs legacy. What is there really to say about it? In 2002 the team was doing decent enough. Had a playoff spot, and MJ was in the MVP race, then he got a really bad knee injury that took him out of a lot of games, and led to those Wizards falling out of the playoffs. It happens.

Could he have kept going? maybe, but when you already have led a team to 2 three peats. there's really no need to keep going just to keep going. It's all choice. Yes, MJ has failures, but he also recovered from majority of them. So thats why he still has a very strong argument in these all time discussions. If you're a fan of his at all judging by your pfp choice, you should agree with that.

[prophet_of_rage]

Nothing gets the board’s collective Gen X dick hard like some good old fashioned LeBron bashing. The great American pastime of the 35+ year old male.

It's quite embarrassing

Sent from my SM-S9080 using RealGM mobile app

[One_and_Done]

It seems clear he should retire. Lacks the extra gear for big minutes in playoffs. No gas tank anymore. Sure in short spurts, he can still bring it but its not enough. So, he accumulates more wealth and personal stats in these waning years.

The style of play in NBA currently has definitely extended his career.

Why retire? Lebron can still have a big impact, the dude got his team to the WCF last year. He's just not a top 5 player anymore at age 39... which is fine given he's likely the most impactful 39 year old ever.

[zimpy27]

This is hilarious. No free pass for Jordan at 39 either then right? He was a loser right?

The prime criteria for GOAT should be ring total and finals wining percentages.

I'll give you the Lebron is the best oldest stat padder in the league....wowee! What an accomplishment.

But I think its hilarious, that a player who lost in 6 finals and only winning 4, should even be compared to someone who won all 6 finals he was in.

So by your criteria, Bill Russell is the GOAT.

I await your response.

Jordan was even declared GOAT after 1st 3-peat..

Apparently 11 by Bill or 5 by Kareem were not match for 3.

[RHODEY]

This is hilarious. No free pass for Jordan at 39 either then right? He was a loser right?

The prime criteria for GOAT should be ring total and finals wining percentages.

I'll give you the Lebron is the best oldest stat padder in the league....wowee! What an accomplishment.

But I think its hilarious, that a player who lost in 6 finals and only winning 4, should even be compared to someone who won all 6 finals he was in.

So by your criteria, Bill Russell is the GOAT.

I await your response.

My response is in 1957 (when Russel)won his first ring) there were 8 NBA teams. and in 1969 (last ring ) there were 12.

[M2J]

Lebron is 39 lol.

Of course You can’t have it both ways. You can’t stroke Lebron when he has a nice game or breaks some cumulative stats record and then let him off of the hook when he stinks it up in the playoffs by reminding people he’s 39. Typical response from a Lebron homer.

I'm anything but a LeBron Homer. I find him boring to watch. However....Anything he does or has done since bringing one title to his 3rd team after age 35 is just adding to his legacy. That he's still arguably a top 10 player and talent is amazing.

He gets a pass. Anthony Davis doesn't

[Tottery]

It seems clear he should retire. Lacks the extra gear for big minutes in playoffs. No gas tank anymore. Sure in short spurts, he can still bring it but its not enough. So, he accumulates more wealth and personal stats in these waning years.

The style of play in NBA currently has definitely extended his career.

I'm not sure last night should be the barometer for his retirement. He was far from the worst player on the court. If your supporting cast can't buy a bucket, you're going to lose.

[infinite11285]

The prime criteria for GOAT should be ring total and finals wining percentages.

I'll give you the Lebron is the best oldest stat padder in the league....wowee! What an accomplishment.

But I think its hilarious, that a player who lost in 6 finals and only winning 4, should even be compared to someone who won all 6 finals he was in.

So by your criteria, Bill Russell is the GOAT.

I await your response.

My response is in 1957 (when Russel)won his first ring) there were 8 NBA teams. and in 1969 (last ring ) there were 12.

Congratulations, you just contradicted yourself.

[RHODEY]

The prime criteria for GOAT should be ring total and finals wining percentages.

I'll give you the Lebron is the best oldest stat padder in the league....wowee! What an accomplishment.

But I think its hilarious, that a player who lost in 6 finals and only winning 4, should even be compared to someone who won all 6 finals he was in.

So by your criteria, Bill Russell is the GOAT.

I await your response.

Jordan was even declared GOAT after 1st 3-peat..

Apparently 11 by Bill or 5 by Kareem were not match for 3.

Both of the above have better argument than Le-40 percent finals win percentage. But maybe in your world ESPN proclamations and empty stats matter more.

[RHODEY]

So by your criteria, Bill Russell is the GOAT.

I await your response.

My response is in 1957 (when Russel)won his first ring) there were 8 NBA teams. and in 1969 (last ring ) there were 12.

Congratulations, you just contradicted yourself.

Not really.

[-Sammy-]

Word on the street is that this thread is going super-viral; everyone in the world is reading it and deciding collectively that James is actually a terrible basketball player and that nothing he's ever done is any good; the NBA plans to make an announcement sometime this week revoking all accomplishments. We all permanently hate James forever now and will never change our minds, and every last LeBron-homer hates him/herself and is sad and defeated and ashamed and humbly realizes that you've been right all along.

That's great work, OP; you've finally done it, and now everyone can move on to other things.

[infinite11285]

My response is in 1957 (when Russel)won his first ring) there were 8 NBA teams. and in 1969 (last ring ) there were 12.

Congratulations, you just contradicted yourself.

Not really.

Your words: "The prime criteria for GOAT should be ring total and finals wining percentages."

[RHODEY]

Congratulations, you just contradicted yourself.

Not really.

Your words: "The prime criteria for GOAT should be ring total and finals wining percentages."

Ok you got me... I should have said The prime criteria for GOAT (in the modern era) should be ring totals and finals wining percentages.


But maybe you are right stat padding and ESPN slurp should play a bigger factor

[IG2]

No one is blaming Lebron for being old and losing here.

You might want to read the very first post then. OP flat out said LeBron shouldn't get a free pass for losing to the Nuggets. No mention of his effort, attitude or even his play. Many who replied even agreed. Hilarious expectations for a 39 year old wouldn't you say. Especially when majority of 'em are trying to protect a guy who wasn't half the player at LeBron's current age.

It's that he quit on his team last night...again.

Do you ever stop trolling

LeBron's effort was stellar for the majority of the game. He had poor body language on occasion, sure, but his effort was fine. He just clearly ran out of gas in the 2nd half. Age 39, altitude and all....

Let's get something straight: Anything LeBron's done post-2020 is gravy. Every positive adds to his legacy while nothing detracts from it. That's what happens when you get old. Judging his performance by any other criteria at this age is basically admittance of LeBron being so far and away the GOAT that the normal rules simply don't apply to him.

[infinite11285]

Y'all made me pull the legendary Sammy out of retirement.

Now, I'm second-guessing every post I made in this thread.

[JRoy]

Completely false. All of those guys careers ended with a whimper and no where NEAR competing for a title

Oh completely false that is hilarous. Tell me in what way is Lebron a GOAT over Duncan?

That's subjective. My rebutal was to:

"Duncan = Always competing and playing for a Title and will get you a title more often than not"

Duncan went out meekly in 2015-16 NOT competing for a title. He also has 1 more title than Lebron. You make it seem like there is a huge gap when it's only 5 to 4. You also list guys that have less (Bird/Hakeem) and say they were always competing for titles???

Lebron's argument over Duncan would be more mvps, finals mvps, and statistical/records etc. Duncan's would be he has more rings and was a better leader. It's a subjective arguement and there is really no wrong answer to preference, but the consensus would have Lebron above Tim. If you personally don't, I don't care.

Duncan, one team his entire career, no whining and colluding, just competing.

No falling down like he was shot by a sniper at the slightest contact, no “five, six, seven…” bs. Just a professional and a competitor without the drama and the need for constant attention and validation.

Team Timmy for me.

[zimpy27]

So by your criteria, Bill Russell is the GOAT.

I await your response.

Jordan was even declared GOAT after 1st 3-peat..

Apparently 11 by Bill or 5 by Kareem were not match for 3.

Both of the above have better argument than Le-40 percent finals win percentage. But maybe in your world ESPN proclamations and empty stats matter more.

You're on a island with your LeBron takes though, are you not aware of this?

Even those that have Jordan as GOAT don't have LeBron outside top 3.

[zimpy27]

Y'all made me pull the legendary Sammy out of retirement.

Now, I'm second-guessing every post I made in this thread.

Will it be 3-peat Sammy or Wizards Sammy after this retirement?