Can we safely say Jokic is the best offensive player ever?

[bledredwine]

Shaq vs. Jokic, Hakeem vs. Jokic and Robinson vs. Jokic would have been awesome.

I'm disappointed that we never got to witness that.

My money's still on Hakeem, especially due to impact on the defensive end and how equally unguardable he was.
But Jokic is definitely in that tier. He's that good.

[dhsilv2]

Robinson/Ewing/Shaq/Hakeem in their prime years would all be better than any 5 this year aside Jok and would all give him significantly more trouble to be the force he is. All much more stronger that any 5 we've got now, he'd not be getting the rebounds and the quick moves from mid to low post for easy shots like he is now. And no those four in prime years were not slow to move. And they'd all be a positive match up on the other side and wear him down.

Other than Shaq, all of those guys were around 255 lbs at their peak - right around where AD is these days. They weren't going to stop Jokic from scoring in the paint and grabbing a bunch of rebounds.

Ewing and DRob were both absolute tanks in their prime. Much stronger than AD ever has been. Jok can back AD down and get into his moves, he would not be able to push either Ewing or DRob in the post like that. Body weight doesn't equal strength.

That and where where your hips form are far and away the most important aspect for moving a defender in the post.

[KennerLeaguer]

Hell no he isn't bird, mj and others were light years ahead of him come on man.

... They are not. Jokic is the best passer of all time next to Bird. Jokic is a great as Mchale inside. Jokic goes full Dirk shooting for a big

Bird wasn't even a better passer than Magic. My goodness. The Magic Johnson erasure continues even though he OWNS Bird overall in terms of their college matchup and their time in the pros.

And before anyone responds with something like "Magic had better teams" or "Bird put up better numbers overall", I want to remind you that most of you defending Bird on that front do not find the courtesy to defend LeBron despite his playing on inferior teams (his teams were favored only twice or three times in the NBA Finals) and despite his typically putting up better overall numbers than opponents in his prime even when his teams lost a series. Be consistent and stop falling back to your biases when having these discussions.

[dhsilv2]

Jokic would back somebody like Webber underneath the basket for 40 minutes. To say nothing of some of the other guys.

And Jokic wouid have to defend Webber

Just let webber shoot...he wasn't efficient enough to win a game on his scoring...

[KennerLeaguer]

Better offensive players based on what?

Based on eye test, statistics, and advanced metrics.

Bird is that special kind of player who has many amazing moments that it's difficult to have an unbiased view of him without watching entire games and then examining the stats. In that way, Bird is much like Kobe.

Kobe is often lauded as being one of the GOATs but when you compare him to players like MJ based on watching an entire game, looking at the box score, and advanced metrics, he comes up significantly short. Not by much, but enough that people in the know will rank MJ over Kobe consistently.

We will see below that Bird's statistical impact rankings put him the same tier with Kobe and not in the tier with MJ and others.

Bird's best season for WS/48 ranks 155 while the top 10 features the players like Kareem, MJ, LeBron, Wilt, Steph, and Jokic. Kobe's best season does not rank in the top 250.

For OBMP, Bird's best season ranks #42 while Jokic, Steph, LeBron, and MJ are in the top 10. Kobe's best year is #55.

For VORP, BIrd's best season ranks #40 while MJ, LeBron, and Jokic are in the top 10. Kobe is #63.

For PER, Bird's best year ranks #97 while Jokic, Wilt, MJ, LeBron, and Giannis are in the top 10. Kobe's best year is #91.

At this point, the arguments for Bird's dominance sound much the arguments for Kobe's dominance. They are simply not backed by evidence. Both are great players. Legends. But they are not at the same level as Kareem, MJ, LeBron, etc.

Thank you. The nostalgia around Bird is strong.

Especially on YouTube where people always try to direct reactors to watch Bird highlights more than Magic's at a scale probably 10 to 1. Its an agenda.

[hardenASG13]

Using the eye test, which is hands down the most accurate measurement of talent, I can name 3 players with 100s of more moves on the offensive end. It's not just about stats; the best offensive player of our generation is probably Durant. Before that, Jordan, to me, is offensively more gifted than Jokic.

A player can have one move only and be the best offensive player. If that move works all the time, then he's the best.

Dirk didn't have as many moves as KG. But he was a better offensive player.

Shaq doesn't have as many offensive moves as Hakeem... but my god the gravity, the inside presence and ability to score... I'll say Shaq is usually ahead of Hakeem on offense.

I'm just not getting where that comes from.

Stats usually measure offense pretty well. Dude scores, assists, offense goes trough him and is elite (on a C, in this era!), he is ultra efficient... Yeah the highlights are kinda boring scoring wise. Circus shots don't get you extra points. He does it, and he does it all at elite level.

The playmaking level alone throws Durant out of the window.

I think what some people want to see with Jokic (I know I do) are the games where he takes over in the playoffs vs. legit competition. Regular season stats are nice and all, but this eras stats are inflated (look at what 39 year old Lebron is doing, and think about what prime LeBron would do today). Even all time greats like Lebron and MJ struggled in playoff series where their team was outmatched. But they also had games in those series where they'd completely dominate, steal a game or 2, etc. They also delivered against legit competition and won series against other great teams.

Until Jokic does that, it's hard to take a guy like Jokic, who posts great, efficient stats and put him in the best offensive player ever conversation. People raved about CP3 (not saying CP3 is in the same stratosphere) and his efficiency, ratings, etc. too, but we're also blinded by it when countered with the fact that the efficiency didn't matter in a 7 game series vs. a quality playoff opponent....it fell short. We judge more on playoffs than regular season in these discussions, and rightfully so. Jokic has the chance to enter the discussion, but he will need to take over some big playoff games and series before I'd take him serious. Beating the 23' Lakers and Heat doesn't cut it for me, similar to how it didn't with Giannis after 21 beating injured Brooklyn, Atlanta, and Phoenix. Similarly to Jokic, he's lost vs. every other quality playoff opponent he's faced. Best currently does not mean best all time.

[KennerLeaguer]

Bird would be fun in the modern era though, as he'd shoot a heap more threes.

And would have to guard a whole lot more guys of his size who could shoot from deep as well.

[KennerLeaguer]

MJ, LeBron, and Jokic and more unstoppable. That's unquestionable. They are better offensive players.

Better offensive players based on what?

Based on eye test, statistics, and advanced metrics.

Bird is that special kind of player who has many amazing moments that it's difficult to have an unbiased view of him without watching entire games and then examining the stats. In that way, Bird is much like Kobe.

Kobe is often lauded as being one of the GOATs but when you compare him to players like MJ based on watching an entire game, looking at the box score, and advanced metrics, he comes up significantly short. Not by much, but enough that people in the know will rank MJ over Kobe consistently.

We will see below that Bird's statistical impact rankings put him the same tier with Kobe and not in the tier with MJ and others.

Bird's best season for WS/48 ranks 155 while the top 10 features the players like Kareem, MJ, LeBron, Wilt, Steph, and Jokic. Kobe's best season does not rank in the top 250.

For OBMP, Bird's best season ranks #42 while Jokic, Steph, LeBron, and MJ are in the top 10. Kobe's best year is #55.

For VORP, BIrd's best season ranks #40 while MJ, LeBron, and Jokic are in the top 10. Kobe is #63.

For PER, Bird's best year ranks #97 while Jokic, Wilt, MJ, LeBron, and Giannis are in the top 10. Kobe's best year is #91.

At this point, the arguments for Bird's dominance sound much the arguments for Kobe's dominance. They are simply not backed by evidence. Both are great players. Legends. But they are not at the same level as Kareem, MJ, LeBron, etc.

Kobe gets so much hype despite being a far less efficient version of Jordan.

[Joao Saraiva]

Using the eye test, which is hands down the most accurate measurement of talent, I can name 3 players with 100s of more moves on the offensive end. It's not just about stats; the best offensive player of our generation is probably Durant. Before that, Jordan, to me, is offensively more gifted than Jokic.

A player can have one move only and be the best offensive player. If that move works all the time, then he's the best.

Dirk didn't have as many moves as KG. But he was a better offensive player.

Shaq doesn't have as many offensive moves as Hakeem... but my god the gravity, the inside presence and ability to score... I'll say Shaq is usually ahead of Hakeem on offense.

I'm just not getting where that comes from.

Stats usually measure offense pretty well. Dude scores, assists, offense goes trough him and is elite (on a C, in this era!), he is ultra efficient... Yeah the highlights are kinda boring scoring wise. Circus shots don't get you extra points. He does it, and he does it all at elite level.

The playmaking level alone throws Durant out of the window.

I think what some people want to see with Jokic (I know I do) are the games where he takes over in the playoffs vs. legit competition. Regular season stats are nice and all, but this eras stats are inflated (look at what 39 year old Lebron is doing, and think about what prime LeBron would do today). Even all time greats like Lebron and MJ struggled in playoff series where their team was outmatched. But they also had games in those series where they'd completely dominate, steal a game or 2, etc. They also delivered against legit competition and won series against other great teams.

Until Jokic does that, it's hard to take a guy like Jokic, who posts great, efficient stats and put him in the best offensive player ever conversation. People raved about CP3 (not saying CP3 is in the same stratosphere) and his efficiency, ratings, etc. too, but we're also blinded by it when countered with the fact that the efficiency didn't matter in a 7 game series vs. a quality playoff opponent....it fell short. We judge more on playoffs than regular season in these discussions, and rightfully so. Jokic has the chance to enter the discussion, but he will need to take over some big playoff games and series before I'd take him serious. Beating the 23' Lakers and Heat doesn't cut it for me, similar to how it didn't with Giannis after 21 beating injured Brooklyn, Atlanta, and Phoenix. Similarly to Jokic, he's lost vs. every other quality playoff opponent he's faced. Best currently does not mean best all time.

It's not like Jokic has been massacred in the playoffs and not played well. Even last year he lost in 7 but put 29.4 PPG 11.4 RPG 7.9 APG on 59.6ts%. If Murray and Porter are gonna score 26-79 from 3 I'll say the Nuggets lose against any decent opponent, but it has not a lot to do with Jokic's performance.

[dhsilv2]

A player can have one move only and be the best offensive player. If that move works all the time, then he's the best.

Dirk didn't have as many moves as KG. But he was a better offensive player.

Shaq doesn't have as many offensive moves as Hakeem... but my god the gravity, the inside presence and ability to score... I'll say Shaq is usually ahead of Hakeem on offense.

I'm just not getting where that comes from.

Stats usually measure offense pretty well. Dude scores, assists, offense goes trough him and is elite (on a C, in this era!), he is ultra efficient... Yeah the highlights are kinda boring scoring wise. Circus shots don't get you extra points. He does it, and he does it all at elite level.

The playmaking level alone throws Durant out of the window.

I think what some people want to see with Jokic (I know I do) are the games where he takes over in the playoffs vs. legit competition. Regular season stats are nice and all, but this eras stats are inflated (look at what 39 year old Lebron is doing, and think about what prime LeBron would do today). Even all time greats like Lebron and MJ struggled in playoff series where their team was outmatched. But they also had games in those series where they'd completely dominate, steal a game or 2, etc. They also delivered against legit competition and won series against other great teams.

Until Jokic does that, it's hard to take a guy like Jokic, who posts great, efficient stats and put him in the best offensive player ever conversation. People raved about CP3 (not saying CP3 is in the same stratosphere) and his efficiency, ratings, etc. too, but we're also blinded by it when countered with the fact that the efficiency didn't matter in a 7 game series vs. a quality playoff opponent....it fell short. We judge more on playoffs than regular season in these discussions, and rightfully so. Jokic has the chance to enter the discussion, but he will need to take over some big playoff games and series before I'd take him serious. Beating the 23' Lakers and Heat doesn't cut it for me, similar to how it didn't with Giannis after 21 beating injured Brooklyn, Atlanta, and Phoenix. Similarly to Jokic, he's lost vs. every other quality playoff opponent he's faced. Best currently does not mean best all time.

It's not like Jokic has been massacred in the playoffs and not played well. Even last year he lost in 7 but put 29.4 PPG 11.4 RPG 7.9 APG on 59.6ts%. If Murray and Porter are gonna score 26-79 from 3 I'll say the Nuggets lose against any decent opponent, but it has not a lot to do with Jokic's performance.

It's not even worth it man. Jokic had a 34-17-7 game in game 7 where his team scored 90 points (oh the inflation from whatever random year these guys pick). And had those 19 boards against a team starting two centers who'd have both been starters in the 90's (the golden era of big men). But jokic doesn't face real competition at center and he can't have big games when it matters.

The absurdity never stops.

[DCasey91]

Hell no he isn't bird, mj and others were light years ahead of him come on man.

... They are not. Jokic is the best passer of all time next to Bird. Jokic is a great as Mchale inside. Jokic goes full Dirk shooting for a big

Bird wasn't even a better passer than Magic. My goodness. The Magic Johnson erasure continues even though he OWNS Bird overall in terms of their college matchup and their time in the pros.

And before anyone responds with something like "Magic had better teams" or "Bird put up better numbers overall", I want to remind you that most of you defending Bird on that front do not find the courtesy to defend LeBron despite his playing on inferior teams (his teams were favored only twice or three times in the NBA Finals) and despite his typically putting up better overall numbers than opponents in his prime even when his teams lost a series. Be consistent and stop falling back to your biases when having these discussions.

You be consistent what are you talking about your all over the place

I'm fine with anyone having Magic as the better passer thus basically having him the greatest, I prefer Jokic, Bird, Magic in that order. All are amazing, the full court stuff and touch passes is the difference imo

[hardenASG13]

I think what some people want to see with Jokic (I know I do) are the games where he takes over in the playoffs vs. legit competition. Regular season stats are nice and all, but this eras stats are inflated (look at what 39 year old Lebron is doing, and think about what prime LeBron would do today). Even all time greats like Lebron and MJ struggled in playoff series where their team was outmatched. But they also had games in those series where they'd completely dominate, steal a game or 2, etc. They also delivered against legit competition and won series against other great teams.

Until Jokic does that, it's hard to take a guy like Jokic, who posts great, efficient stats and put him in the best offensive player ever conversation. People raved about CP3 (not saying CP3 is in the same stratosphere) and his efficiency, ratings, etc. too, but we're also blinded by it when countered with the fact that the efficiency didn't matter in a 7 game series vs. a quality playoff opponent....it fell short. We judge more on playoffs than regular season in these discussions, and rightfully so. Jokic has the chance to enter the discussion, but he will need to take over some big playoff games and series before I'd take him serious. Beating the 23' Lakers and Heat doesn't cut it for me, similar to how it didn't with Giannis after 21 beating injured Brooklyn, Atlanta, and Phoenix. Similarly to Jokic, he's lost vs. every other quality playoff opponent he's faced. Best currently does not mean best all time.

It's not like Jokic has been massacred in the playoffs and not played well. Even last year he lost in 7 but put 29.4 PPG 11.4 RPG 7.9 APG on 59.6ts%. If Murray and Porter are gonna score 26-79 from 3 I'll say the Nuggets lose against any decent opponent, but it has not a lot to do with Jokic's performance.

It's not even worth it man. Jokic had a 34-17-7 game in game 7 where his team scored 90 points (oh the inflation from whatever random year these guys pick). And had those 19 boards against a team starting two centers who'd have both been starters in the 90's (the golden era of big men). But jokic doesn't face real competition at center and he can't have big games when it matters.

The absurdity never stops.

It is worth it and you're free to disagree or not comment. He certainly had good numbers, on par with his regular numbers. He took over 1 game in that series though, it wasn't enough. The efficiency wasn't helpful when he was passive during the 20 point 3rd quarter comeback by Minnesota. He scored alot of those 37 in the 4th quarter, after his team squandered a 20 point lead in the 3rd, in a game 7, at home. And Minnesota wasn't anything special, as evidenced by the next round. Harp on numbers all you want, but that takeover effect matters, and he hasnt delivered in that area. Go by numbers all you want, I know that's how you analyze the game. But we're talking about all time great offensive player here. All the guys in the discussion have great numbers. The separation in these discussion boils down to dominant playoff games and series where they take their team over the top vs. good competition, or at least steal some games with monster performances when their team is outmatched. Jokic lacks in that all important area compared to the greats this game has seen, and no ts% can change that.

[DCasey91]

Seen Jokic just palm it at the apex of a rebound full court the thing like a tennis ball hit t*t on the other side of the court... Try and do it test it out he also does that while tapping it one hand just to palm it on the other so the ball doesn't dip below nipple height.

Dude has like no cock back sometimes. I cannot find a player that does this because they set it up more like a QB with a wind up and bing it down or use both hands beforehand to set it up (get the ball comfortably in the hand).

It's like a short polo pass except he's pulling that from way further back.

Go try it see how difficult it is.

[dhsilv2]

It's not like Jokic has been massacred in the playoffs and not played well. Even last year he lost in 7 but put 29.4 PPG 11.4 RPG 7.9 APG on 59.6ts%. If Murray and Porter are gonna score 26-79 from 3 I'll say the Nuggets lose against any decent opponent, but it has not a lot to do with Jokic's performance.

It's not even worth it man. Jokic had a 34-17-7 game in game 7 where his team scored 90 points (oh the inflation from whatever random year these guys pick). And had those 19 boards against a team starting two centers who'd have both been starters in the 90's (the golden era of big men). But jokic doesn't face real competition at center and he can't have big games when it matters.

The absurdity never stops.

It is worth it and you're free to disagree or not comment. He certainly had good numbers, on par with his regular numbers. He took over 1 game in that series though, it wasn't enough. The efficiency wasn't helpful when he was passive during the 20 point 3rd quarter comeback by Minnesota. He scored alot of those 37 in the 4th quarter, after his team squandered a 20 point lead in the 3rd, in a game 7, at home. And Minnesota wasn't anything special, as evidenced by the next round. Harp on numbers all you want, but that takeover effect matters, and he hasnt delivered in that area. Go by numbers all you want, I know that's how you analyze the game. But we're talking about all time great offensive player here. All the guys in the discussion have great numbers. The separation in these discussion boils down to dominant playoff games and series where they take their team over the top vs. good competition, or at least steal some games with monster performances when their team is outmatched. Jokic lacks in that all important area compared to the greats this game has seen, and no ts% can change that.

Jokic was exceptional in that series. Numbers or not. He was incredible. Just like he was incredible when his team lost in the first round to the warriors a few years before that. You can repeat your wild takes over and over but reality isn't going to change.

[1993Playoffs]

I think when comparing the very best of the best , ironically I think MJ loses out


His passing lags behind Jokic/LeBron who have shown countless times that they can scale up their scoring as well

[Richard Miller]

Lol other than Embiid there is no other center his size and skilled.

That's a weird argument. If you had many players of MJ's size and same skill, then MJ wouldn't be so unique would he?

[SoulJah]

It's just silly at this point. He's currently putting up the greatest offensive season ever. Good 5 year stretch (including this year) is the greatest offensive peak ever. I'm not sure we've ever seen player who can raise a team's floor or carry a team like he can. LeBron is the other debatable one in that category. If Jokic had teams as good as the other top 10~ all time players, he has more rings.

a year ago, I would have said no without blinking an eye, now I am starting to thinking he probably is up there, top 3. I don't think anybody has seen a big man this skilled hence why people still get their head around where he belongs. To me, he's already in top 10 players all time.

[hardenASG13]

It's not even worth it man. Jokic had a 34-17-7 game in game 7 where his team scored 90 points (oh the inflation from whatever random year these guys pick). And had those 19 boards against a team starting two centers who'd have both been starters in the 90's (the golden era of big men). But jokic doesn't face real competition at center and he can't have big games when it matters.

The absurdity never stops.

It is worth it and you're free to disagree or not comment. He certainly had good numbers, on par with his regular numbers. He took over 1 game in that series though, it wasn't enough. The efficiency wasn't helpful when he was passive during the 20 point 3rd quarter comeback by Minnesota. He scored alot of those 37 in the 4th quarter, after his team squandered a 20 point lead in the 3rd, in a game 7, at home. And Minnesota wasn't anything special, as evidenced by the next round. Harp on numbers all you want, but that takeover effect matters, and he hasnt delivered in that area. Go by numbers all you want, I know that's how you analyze the game. But we're talking about all time great offensive player here. All the guys in the discussion have great numbers. The separation in these discussion boils down to dominant playoff games and series where they take their team over the top vs. good competition, or at least steal some games with monster performances when their team is outmatched. Jokic lacks in that all important area compared to the greats this game has seen, and no ts% can change that.

Jokic was exceptional in that series. Numbers or not. He was incredible. Just like he was incredible when his team lost in the first round to the warriors a few years before that. You can repeat your wild takes over and over but reality isn't going to change.

Of course he was exceptional. Hes a freaking league MVP. But all guys in this discussion are exceptional. I don't think he was better in the Golden State series, than say Lebron in 09 vs Orlando, or Lebron in the 15 finals falling short vs a better version of those warriors. I can't picture prime LeBron or MJ losing to a team like Minnesota with home court, either. They aren't wild takes, and I repeated them last year all season, was blasted all year, then Minnesota happened (reality!) Maybe there's something to it, maybe he'll get over that hump someday. But we're talking best all time here, and it takes more than efficient stats to enter that discussion.

[SOA]

The answer to the question is simply no. And using advanced stats to prove that he is the GOAT offensive player is extremely flawed considering most advanced stats are based relative to per 36 basis, most advanced stats weight certain stats over others, and the league I by far the easiest to play in since Naismith had to use a stick to get the medicine ball out of the peach basket.

[The Explorer]

MJ, LeBron, and Jokic and more unstoppable. That's unquestionable. They are better offensive players.

Better offensive players based on what?

Literally everything. His basic and advanced stats are quite clearly, much better than Bird's. His greatest seasons are quite clearly better than Bird's. The eye test shows he can do nearly everything Bird did, but he does most of them better.

I don't see how it is a debate. Just look at Jokic's stats and watch some tape if you so desire. He's clearly a better offensive player than Larry. See the post above me. Again, not close.

So you look at stats in a vaccuum with no context. You don't care about things like era, rules, ease/difficulty of scoring in the paint. Larry Bird was going up against the likes of Michael Cooper and Dennis Rodman defending him, not to mention stars like Wilkins who made him work on the defensive end as well. Jokic is going up against the likes of ...nobody significant who slows him down nor gives it back to him on the defensive end. Don't give me Gobert, despite his awards he is not the defender of bigs like Olajuwon, Ewing, Mourning, Mutombo, Eaton, etc.