RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 2)

[bledredwine]

Go ahead and disprove the stats starting at 11:45. Once again, how’s that for stats? Expected nothing less from you.

Yep- to me the Youtube commentary level analysis and absence of an actual statistical based analysis just confirms that Jordan fans know deep down that James has a strong/valid case.

The poster you are quoting has a history of mocking the player comparison board because he couldn’t combat actual basketball analysis when this same topic was discussed.

The entire GB has a history of mocking the Propaganda Comparison forum- it’s a laughing stock because of the obvious agenda. All it takes is a look at some of the poor thread topics.

As for stats? Jordan has six championships, defensive player of the year, 9 times first team defense (record), ten scoring titles,
is first in NbA history in PER, winshares, VORP per 48, even box score plus minus, points per game, both regular season and playoffs. How’s that for stats? What stats are you talking about? Longevity and cherry picked triple double stats?

Its a bad comparison, just like Kobe was.

Yes the PC board is a laughingstock because they have more of an evolved form of basketball discussion than what you're used to. Sorry that doesn't indicate an "agenda" just because you don't like what your hearing, or is the opposite of what you think.

lmao@ longevity and "cherry picked triple double stats"- Exactly what I expected from you.

Yeah, being correct.

Watch on YouTube

[Special_Puppy]

Top five is laughable. No one considered Pippen top 5. Player Comparison forum posters apparently do.
He was considered among the best two #2 options right alongside Stockton, who was also a dream teamer.

But this is what Lebron fans do- make excuses and exaggerate.
The thing is, Jordan performed every single time. He has the stats, testimony, achievements, and dominance to back it up.

Jordan even has all cross era players who actually played with or against both players saying "Jordan, by far" and similar sentiments.
He even had GOATs of the game calling him GOAT.

Lebron has... longevity.

Give Jordan Anthony Davis, or Wade Bosh and the league is his. 2011 doesn't happen, he doesn't get embarrassed by Duncan, he doesn't nearly lose another championship if not for Wade/Bosh saving him, he doesn't shoot .397 from the field, get outplayed by someone at his own position, or let 4 of his finals matchups win Finals MVP. Oh, and Jordan wouldn't have some of the worst finals slaughters of all time against his own team.

LOL what a fail post.

LeBron has "longevity". All the advanced stats PER, VORP, WS/48, BPM, RAPM, EPM suggest he's a strong GOAT candidate. His traditional statistical profile/body of work all suggest the same. But yes, just "longevity" lol.

Jokes on you.

Jordan’s first in those and I’ll also post a video about it all since you missed the ride.

Jordan is first in the *rate* version of them , but LeBron is generally ahead in the cumulative version (yes even if you give extra weight to peak) viewtopic.php?t=2393827

[bledredwine]

LOL what a fail post.

LeBron has "longevity". All the advanced stats PER, VORP, WS/48, BPM, RAPM, EPM suggest he's a strong GOAT candidate. His traditional statistical profile/body of work all suggest the same. But yes, just "longevity" lol.

Jokes on you.

Jordan’s first in those and I’ll also post a video about it all since you missed the ride.

Jordan is first in the *rate* version of them , but LeBron is generally ahead in the cumulative version (yes even if you give extra weight to peak) viewtopic.php?t=2393827

Longevity stats don't matter much - Lebron leads NBA history in missed field goals and turnovers.
Does that make him the most careless player of all time? I care more about who played better on a game by game basis AKA who was actually better.

Your post supports what I said.
Lebron fans only have triple double stats or longevity based stats.

Longevity is just one of many aspects. Jordan dominates nearly all of the rest.

I don't care about cumulative stats - Is Karl Malone the 3rd best scorer of all time? Lebron is definitely not 1st, that's for sure. Hell, Kevin Durant leads him career head to head in points and did far better and more efficient in the finals.

But what actually matters?
In terms of typical performance (average per season or game), Jordan is 1st in NBA history in all that I mentioned,
which is actually ridiculous. And then he has all of the achievements over Lebron - literally twice as many trophies.

It's not a good comparison. They're a Hall of Fame career apart, and that's despite Lebron playing for nearly a career more than Jordan in seasons and teaming up multiple times with Allstars.

[bledredwine]

By the way,

I find it funny that everything I had said since 2009 has come true.

Kobe defended from supposed "GOAT" here to around the ten spot.
Lebron declined in popularity and will continue to as he retires, by the way.

Another player came into the league who's already getting GOAT hype in Jokic.

Man, can you imagine if Jokic pulled a Lebron and teamed up with Giannis and a 3rd? Yeah, Lebron
wouldn't be in the conversation in that hypothetical future.

Maybe Wembenyama can be Jokic's KD. Fact is, Lebron didn't distance himself enough from his competition to
be compared to Jordan. He's been equalled or bested in the finals multiple times (Dirk/his teammate Wade/Terry, Duncan earlier, Durant, Kawhi/Iggy even got Finals MVP's with Lebron guarding them)

It's not been pretty. He's way more vulnerable than Jordan, probably because of his terrible midrange percentage in the playoffs (low 30's)

[Special_Puppy]

Jokes on you.

Jordan’s first in those and I’ll also post a video about it all since you missed the ride.

Jordan is first in the *rate* version of them , but LeBron is generally ahead in the cumulative version (yes even if you give extra weight to peak) viewtopic.php?t=2393827

Longevity stats don't matter much - Lebron leads NBA history in missed field goals and turnovers.
Does that make him the most careless player of all time? I care more about who played better on a game by game basis AKA who was actually better.

If we are talking about career value (I.E. if you could have a player for their entire career who would you take) why wouldn’t longevity be a pretty big factor?

https://thinkingbasketball.net/2018/04/13/goat-meta-thoughts-and-longevity/#:~:text=So%2C%20it%20seems%20that%20beyond,in%20these%20kinds%20of%20rankings.

[ScrantonBulls]

By the way,

I find it funny that everything I had said since 2009 has come true.

Kobe defended from supposed "GOAT" here to around the ten spot.
Lebron declined in popularity and will continue to as he retires, by the way.

Another player came into the league who's already getting GOAT hype in Jokic.

Man, can you imagine if Jokic pulled a Lebron and teamed up with Giannis and a 3rd? Yeah, Lebron
wouldn't be in the conversation in that hypothetical future.

Maybe Wembenyama can be Jokic's KD. Fact is, Lebron didn't distance himself enough from his competition to
be compared to Jordan. He's been equalled or bested in the finals multiple times (Dirk/his teammate Wade/Terry, Duncan earlier, Durant, Kawhi/Iggy even got Finals MVP's with Lebron guarding them)

It's not been pretty. He's way more vulnerable than Jordan, probably because of his terrible midrange percentage in the playoffs (low 30's)

Can a longtime member here confirm if Kobe was actually regarded as the GOAT around here in 2009-2010 (or even later) or is it just bledredwine having another meltdown because he's upset that people are saying LeBron is a GOAT candidate?

I'm assuming RealGM never annointed him as the GOAT

[ScrantonBulls]

Wrong again. He quit baseball because they had a lockout. He was on the verge of making the big leagues right before that happened.

MJ was on the verge of making the MLB with his robust .202 average and .556 OPS in AA. He was never making the majors, son.

He was. Watch the last dance. Baseball guys were saying he was close.

No he wasn't

[Big J]

MJ was on the verge of making the MLB with his robust .202 average and .556 OPS in AA. He was never making the majors, son.

He was. Watch the last dance. Baseball guys were saying he was close.

No he wasn't

Watch on YouTube

I'll trust a mlb championship manager's opinion over yours.

[The4thHorseman]

If he was competitive he wouldn’t have quit the sport in the middle of his prime.

He didn’t quit. Winning had gotten too easy, and he needed a new challenge.

This has been said many times but a link to MJ saying that has never been provided.

[Big J]

If he was competitive he wouldn’t have quit the sport in the middle of his prime.

He didn’t quit. Winning had gotten too easy, and he needed a new challenge.

This has been said many times but a link to MJ saying that has never been provided.

“It’s not because I don’t love the game. I love the game of basketball, I always will. I just feel that at this particular time in my career, I’ve reached the pinnacle of my career, I’ve achieved a lot in that short amount of time, if you want to call it short, but I just feel that I don’t have anything else to myself to prove."


https://www.chicagotribune.com/1993/10/06/michael-jordans-statement-from-his-1993-press-conference-to-announce-his-retirement-from-the-nba/

[ScrantonBulls]

He was. Watch the last dance. Baseball guys were saying he was close.

No he wasn't

Watch on YouTube

I'll trust a mlb championship manager's opinion over yours.

I thought it was from the last dance and he was going to get called up soon? 31 year old with a .202 average and a .556 OPS in AA Your troll game is still a bit rusty J.

[The4thHorseman]

And for the record, what happened the year before Jordan came back? What happened
to that awesome squad? Shouldn't Pippen be carrying them and an obvious MVP choice if
he's top 5?

So a team that lost a 3x MVP and replaced him with Meyers managed to win over 50 games and a playoff series and if not for some questionable officiating might have won at least one more.

What did Mike win before and after Pip? Oh that's right, not anything.

And who was Mike's supporting cast?
Oh right, cocaine addicts.

And what happened when Mike returned? Oh right, they went from a barely .500 season to a .888 (84-14 streak) with MJ, including the following season, setting the all time regular season record at the time 72-10.
And that's checkmate.

.... but that's not all,
they also three-peated, including multiple Finals game winners and a game winning assist to Kerr by Jordan himself, not to mention the flu game.

This three-peat? It's something Lebron's never been able to do even after teaming up with two MVP candidates from the prior year, and one of the GOAT coaches in Riley. And he choked in 2011, nearly choked against the Spurs if not for Allen and Bosh.

When did Jordan choke like that? He was the best player on the court, period.

All of the above is what you call the true GOAT and ceiling raiser.

The second 3peat comes with an * due to needing to sit out and rest for almost 2 seasons. The Bulls first 3peat was impressive though.

[ScrantonBulls]

So a team that lost a 3x MVP and replaced him with Meyers managed to win over 50 games and a playoff series and if not for some questionable officiating might have won at least one more.

What did Mike win before and after Pip? Oh that's right, not anything.

And who was Mike's supporting cast?
Oh right, cocaine addicts.

And what happened when Mike returned? Oh right, they went from a barely .500 season to a .888 (84-14 streak) with MJ, including the following season, setting the all time regular season record at the time 72-10.
And that's checkmate.

.... but that's not all,
they also three-peated, including multiple Finals game winners and a game winning assist to Kerr by Jordan himself, not to mention the flu game.

This three-peat? It's something Lebron's never been able to do even after teaming up with two MVP candidates from the prior year, and one of the GOAT coaches in Riley. And he choked in 2011, nearly choked against the Spurs if not for Allen and Bosh.

When did Jordan choke like that? He was the best player on the court, period.

All of the above is what you call the true GOAT and ceiling raiser.

The second 3peat comes with an * due to needing to sit out and rest for almost 2 seasons. The Bulls first 3peat was impressive though.

He also played with 3 other HOFers who were making all-NBA first and second teams/all-defensive first teams. That second 3-peat is the definition of a superteam. They had it all. The league was also very weak during the 2nd 3-peat.

[The4thHorseman]

He didn’t quit. Winning had gotten too easy, and he needed a new challenge.

This has been said many times but a link to MJ saying that has never been provided.

“It’s not because I don’t love the game. I love the game of basketball, I always will. I just feel that at this particular time in my career, I’ve reached the pinnacle of my career, I’ve achieved a lot in that short amount of time, if you want to call it short, but I just feel that I don’t have anything else to myself to prove."


https://www.chicagotribune.com/1993/10/06/michael-jordans-statement-from-his-1993-press-conference-to-announce-his-retirement-from-the-nba/

So basically he was full of **** at that time cause if that were the truth, then he would've never went back to the NBA.

[Big J]

This has been said many times but a link to MJ saying that has never been provided.

“It’s not because I don’t love the game. I love the game of basketball, I always will. I just feel that at this particular time in my career, I’ve reached the pinnacle of my career, I’ve achieved a lot in that short amount of time, if you want to call it short, but I just feel that I don’t have anything else to myself to prove."


https://www.chicagotribune.com/1993/10/06/michael-jordans-statement-from-his-1993-press-conference-to-announce-his-retirement-from-the-nba/

So basically he was full of **** at that time cause if that were the truth, then he would've never went back to the NBA.

He had nothing left to prove at that moment in time. 2 years later scrubs like Bryon Russell started popping off to him, and he had something to prove again.

[The4thHorseman]

No he wasn't

Watch on YouTube

I'll trust a mlb championship manager's opinion over yours.

I thought it was from the last dance and he was going to get called up soon? 31 year old with a .202 average and a .556 OPS in AA Your troll game is still a bit rusty J.

Elvis had more hits than MJ

[The Big O]

Top five is laughable. No one considered Pippen top 5. Player Comparison forum posters apparently do.
He was considered among the best two #2 options right alongside Stockton, who was also a dream teamer.

But this is what Lebron fans do- make excuses and exaggerate.
The thing is, Jordan performed every single time. He has the stats, testimony, achievements, and dominance to back it up.

Jordan even has all cross era players who actually played with or against both players saying "Jordan, by far" and similar sentiments.
He even had GOATs of the game calling him GOAT.

Lebron has... longevity.

Give Jordan Anthony Davis, or Wade Bosh and the league is his. 2011 doesn't happen, he doesn't get embarrassed by Duncan, he doesn't nearly lose another championship if not for Wade/Bosh saving him, he doesn't shoot .397 from the field, get outplayed by someone at his own position, or let 4 of his finals matchups win Finals MVP. Oh, and Jordan wouldn't have some of the worst finals slaughters of all time against his own team.

LOL what a fail post.

LeBron has "longevity". All the advanced stats PER, VORP, WS/48, BPM, RAPM, EPM suggest he's a strong GOAT candidate. His traditional statistical profile/body of work all suggest the same. But yes, just "longevity" lol.

Jokes on you.

Jordan’s first in those and I’ll also post a video about it all since you missed the ride.

Jordan is first in BPM? Wrong. Jordan is first in VORP? Wrong. WS/48? Wrong. RAPM? Wrong. EPM? Wrong. Please go ahead and post another Youtube video since you clearly can't respond for yourself.

[The Big O]

By the way,

I find it funny that everything I had said since 2009 has come true.

Kobe defended from supposed "GOAT" here to around the ten spot.
Lebron declined in popularity and will continue to as he retires, by the way.

Another player came into the league who's already getting GOAT hype in Jokic.

Man, can you imagine if Jokic pulled a Lebron and teamed up with Giannis and a 3rd? Yeah, Lebron
wouldn't be in the conversation in that hypothetical future.

Maybe Wembenyama can be Jokic's KD. Fact is, Lebron didn't distance himself enough from his competition to
be compared to Jordan. He's been equalled or bested in the finals multiple times (Dirk/his teammate Wade/Terry, Duncan earlier, Durant, Kawhi/Iggy even got Finals MVP's with Lebron guarding them)

It's not been pretty. He's way more vulnerable than Jordan, probably because of his terrible midrange percentage in the playoffs (low 30's)

Eh? Kobe never had an actual GOAT case, nor was he heralded as such by any serious basketball analysis. More conjecture from you.

[jehosafats]

The guy with the most points ever and led the most playoff series wins.
The guy who's led 3 different teams to championships.

Don't underestimate MJ hagiographers

[The Big O]

Yes Mike is one of the 5 best players of all-time. Adding him to a very good team naturally led to championships. Weird to think that's a checkmate as opposed to pretty obvious lol.

Lebron does have 2011. He also has years he won titles or took his team to the Finals with far less help. Where is that season for Mike?

We know Mike could win titles with stacked teams that could win 55 games without him and a GOAT coach. We also know he couldn't lift the floors of mediocre teams the way Lebron did over and over again.

The difference is I acknowledge Mike is an all-time great. You won't for Lebron.

Yep- to me the Youtube commentary level analysis and absence of an actual statistical based analysis just confirms that Jordan fans know deep down that James has a strong/valid case.

The poster you are quoting has a history of mocking the player comparison board because he couldn’t combat actual basketball analysis when this same topic was discussed.

The entire GB has a history of mocking the Propaganda Comparison forum- it’s a laughing stock because of the obvious agenda. All it takes is a look at some of the poor thread topics.

As for stats? Jordan has six championships, defensive player of the year, 9 times first team defense (record), ten scoring titles,
is first in NbA history in PER, winshares, VORP per 48, even box score plus minus, points per game, both regular season and playoffs. How’s that for stats? What stats are you talking about? Longevity and cherry picked triple double stats?

Its a bad comparison, just like Kobe was.
And for the record, Spo is a direct student of Riley.

Dispelled your claims that Jordan is number 1 in all the advanced stats you listed.

WTH is VORP per 48? Makes me think you don't even understand the stats that you cite. Maybe stop laughing at the ''Propaganda comparison forum" and learn from it?

What stats am I talking about? How about LeBron leading the league in WS/48, BPM, VORP, and PER 5 times in his prime. Sounds to me more than just "longevity" and "cherry picked triple double stats". Try again.