Where does the myth of physical 90s NBA basketball come from?

[SomeBunghole]

You didn't see physicality like this on the perimeter much back in the 80s or 90s.

There was no one to guard on the perimeter back then. Of course you'd never see that kind of physicality. What are you going do, blitz Wesley Person and George McCloud(both led the league in 3PA at some point)? Dudes who shot threes were specialists who by and large couldn't do anything else, let alone create.

[Lalouie]

prolly when the nba decided HANDS OFF the offense

[One Last Shot]

It's time to end the buffoonary based on nostalgia. You didn't see physicality like this on the perimeter much back in the 80s or 90s. Without question perimeter defense is more physical today. I'd say the game as a whole is more physical today than the 80s and 90s.

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This is false. No blood no foul is implemented in that era.

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[tsherkin]

You didn't see physicality like this on the perimeter much back in the 80s or 90s.

There was no one to guard on the perimeter back then. Of course you'd never see that kind of physicality. What are you going do, blitz Wesley Person and George McCloud(both led the league in 3PA at some point)? Dudes who shot threes were specialists who by and large couldn't do anything else, let alone create.

Payton. KJ. Jordan. Grant Hill. Penny. Stackhouse. AI. Mitch Richmond. Steve Smith. Jamal Mashburn. Mark Price. Stockton. Reggie. Tim Hardaway. Ray Ray. Kidd. Drexler. Schrempf. Hersey Hawkins. Glen Rice. Nique. Pippen. Chris Mullin. Bernard King. Allan Houston.

There was a fairly decent amount of perimeter talent at the time. The emphasis was a little more on the small forward position than on the shooting guard slot, for sure, but there were plenty of perimeter scorers in the 90s.

[MrGoat]

Lousy reffing and primitive offenses that hadn't yet figured out the math of the relatively new 3 pointer. David Stern brought corrupt reffing to the NBA at a extremely high level to boost up Jordan. It's nothing new that some teams are allowed to be more physical than others. Pre Stern the reffing was done much more by the book

[tsherkin]

Lousy reffing and primitive offenses that hadn't yet figured out the math of the relatively new 3 pointer. David Stern brought corrupt reffing to the NBA at a extremely high level to boost up Jordan. It's nothing new that some teams are allowed to be more physical than others. Pre Stern the reffing was done much more by the book

It's really interesting that people moan about the reffing so much with Jordan. It's not like he was some kind of crazy FT merchant or whatever.

[MrGoat]

Lousy reffing and primitive offenses that hadn't yet figured out the math of the relatively new 3 pointer. David Stern brought corrupt reffing to the NBA at a extremely high level to boost up Jordan. It's nothing new that some teams are allowed to be more physical than others. Pre Stern the reffing was done much more by the book

It's really interesting that people moan about the reffing so much with Jordan. It's not like he was some kind of crazy FT merchant or whatever.

That was the craziest thing about Jordan, he didn't need to be because his reffing was so blatant

[tsherkin]

That was the craziest thing about Jordan, he didn't need to be because his reffing was so blatant

I mean, this is mostly BS.

Jordan's offense wasn't based on refereeing mistakes or cheating at all. Chicago played excellent basketball, and Jordan was an extremely explosive athlete with a very well-developed skill set. The refs aren't why he made the Finals, and aren't why he won in the Finals, either. That's just copium.

[durden_tyler]

It's because the players are softer these days that's why we think it's more physical. It was, but not really by much and players were allowed for some dirty tactics here and there and it wasn't called then (it's Flagrant 1 instantly these days).

[K N U C K L E S]

Obviously you had the Bad Boys Pistons in the late 80s who were infamous for hard fouls. The league changed the flagrant foul rules in 90-91 to remedy this.

When you watch 90s games in full, it isn't any more physical than what you see today. Especially when looking at the playoffs. Modern playoff games have so much contact in them.

A more physical era than the 90a was clearly the 2000s. The 2004 Pistons teams were so physical that the NBA had to implement rule changes to fix it. They manhandled their opponents. Shouldn't the 2000s be known as the physical era given that it was WAY more physical than the 90s?

Where did this myth of physical 90s basketball come from? Watching the games, it's just completely false. I was actually shocked at how little contact there was when watching those games. Is this just BS perpetuated by dumb/salty ex-players, then parroted by their nostalgic fans who hate anything new?

What about the Heat-Knicks games(Playoffs and regular season) in the late 90's and early 00's? It doesn't get more physical than that. There were several fights. I really miss those games. It was probably those games that caused the league to make defense illegal. If the Heat/Knicks rivalry from those days hasn't been mentioned yet in this thread, SHAME ON ALL OF YOU.

[ScrantonBulls]

Obviously you had the Bad Boys Pistons in the late 80s who were infamous for hard fouls. The league changed the flagrant foul rules in 90-91 to remedy this.

When you watch 90s games in full, it isn't any more physical than what you see today. Especially when looking at the playoffs. Modern playoff games have so much contact in them.

A more physical era than the 90a was clearly the 2000s. The 2004 Pistons teams were so physical that the NBA had to implement rule changes to fix it. They manhandled their opponents. Shouldn't the 2000s be known as the physical era given that it was WAY more physical than the 90s?

Where did this myth of physical 90s basketball come from? Watching the games, it's just completely false. I was actually shocked at how little contact there was when watching those games. Is this just BS perpetuated by dumb/salty ex-players, then parroted by their nostalgic fans who hate anything new?

What about the Heat-Knicks games(Playoffs and regular season) in the late 90's and early 00's? It doesn't get more physical than that. There were several fights. I really miss those games. It was probably those games that caused the league to make defense illegal. If the Heat/Knicks rivalry from those days hasn't been mentioned yet in this thread, SHAME ON ALL OF YOU.

You see.those games where Draymond kicked guys in the nuts? It was never more physical than that. Everybody was getting smashed in the nuts back then. Now a days you can't even kick a guy in the nuts. It's sad and soft.

[SomeBunghole]

There was a fairly decent amount of perimeter talent at the time. The emphasis was a little more on the small forward position than on the shooting guard slot, for sure, but there were plenty of perimeter scorers in the 90s.

You are listing guys like Jordan(and others) who weren't three-point shooters at all. I think our definition of perimeter is rather different. I don't consider anything inside the line to be "perimeter." At least not from a 2025 perspective.

The video I responded to had the Rockets blitzing Steph about 30 feet out and said you didn't have that in the 90s. The Rockets aren't blitzing Steph because they're worried he's going to burn them with 20-foot jumpers, they're doing it because he's averaged 10 three point attempts a game every year for a decade. No one was blitzed at 30 feet in the 90s because no one shot from 30 feet in the 90s.

[og15]

Lousy reffing and primitive offenses that hadn't yet figured out the math of the relatively new 3 pointer. David Stern brought corrupt reffing to the NBA at a extremely high level to boost up Jordan. It's nothing new that some teams are allowed to be more physical than others. Pre Stern the reffing was done much more by the book

I posted this in another thread

Here's a different take from some older players some years back:

Watch on YouTube

Bird:
"I like the game now, I think they've cleaned it up as far as the grabbing and holding and cheap shots"

"We wouldn't even guard guys beyond the 3PT line, we would stay way underneath and go under every pick" - Note that when people say this, some people react like they are making it up

"I can remember Danny (Ainge) talking about using it back then, he thought, you could shoot 35, 36% from 3 and better than if you shot 50% from the 2's" - Yes, everyone wasn't oblivious to this reality

It was figured out pretty early, just not utilized

[Godymas]

people who don’t watch the game of basketball primarily glorify the 90s

[MrGoat]

Lousy reffing and primitive offenses that hadn't yet figured out the math of the relatively new 3 pointer. David Stern brought corrupt reffing to the NBA at a extremely high level to boost up Jordan. It's nothing new that some teams are allowed to be more physical than others. Pre Stern the reffing was done much more by the book

I posted this in another thread

Here's a different take from some older players some years back:

Watch on YouTube

Bird:
"I like the game now, I think they've cleaned it up as far as the grabbing and holding and cheap shots"

"We wouldn't even guard guys beyond the 3PT line, we would stay way underneath and go under every pick" - Note that when people say this, some people react like they are making it up

"I can remember Danny (Ainge) talking about using it back then, he thought, you could shoot 35, 36% from 3 and better than if you shot 50% from the 2's" - Yes, everyone wasn't oblivious to this reality

It was figure out pretty early, just not utilized

I was calling for teams to take more 3s back in the day myself, the narrative was defense was tougher in the playoffs and 3 point shooters would underperform because of it making it a bad shot in the playoffs. I remember during the 2011 Mavs run they were being dismissed partially because it was the greatest collection of 3 point shooters ever assembled at the time and it was assumed that they would get knocked out because they took too many 3s. Terry, Kidd, Dirk, and Peja were all top 10 all time in 3s made at the time which sounds insane now. Terry is still #11 at the moment but CJ McCollum has already passed Kidd and Dirk who are now down to #19 and #20, Tim Hardaway Jr. is less than 150 threes away from passing them both. Those Mavs would comfortably be last in the league in 3 pointers attempted now. They were dismissed as a fluke but I think that is when the thinking really started to change, then Golden State happened

[Ainosterhaspie]

Lousy reffing and primitive offenses that hadn't yet figured out the math of the relatively new 3 pointer. David Stern brought corrupt reffing to the NBA at a extremely high level to boost up Jordan. It's nothing new that some teams are allowed to be more physical than others. Pre Stern the reffing was done much more by the book

I posted this in another thread

Here's a different take from some older players some years back:

Watch on YouTube

Bird:
"I like the game now, I think they've cleaned it up as far as the grabbing and holding and cheap shots"

"We wouldn't even guard guys beyond the 3PT line, we would stay way underneath and go under every pick" - Note that when people say this, some people react like they are making it up

"I can remember Danny (Ainge) talking about using it back then, he thought, you could shoot 35, 36% from 3 and better than if you shot 50% from the 2's" - Yes, everyone wasn't oblivious to this reality

It was figure out pretty early, just not utilized

I was calling for teams to take more 3s back in the day myself, the narrative was defense was tougher in the playoffs and 3 point shooters would underperform because of it making it a bad shot in the playoffs. I remember during the 2011 Mavs run they were being dismissed partially because it was the greatest collection of 3 point shooters ever assembled at the time and it was assumed that they would get knocked out because they took too many 3s. Terry, Kidd, Dirk, and Peja were all top 10 all time in 3s made at the time which sounds insane now. Terry is still #11 at the moment but CJ McCollum has already passed Kidd and Dirk who are now down to #19 and #20, Tim Hardaway Jr. is less than 150 threes away from passing them both. Those Mavs would comfortably be last in the league in 3 pointers attempted now. They were dismissed as a fluke but I think that is when the thinking really started to change, then Golden State happened

The Magic in 09 had six guys taking 2+ threes per game at 36%. That got them to the finals.

The Celtics 08-10 run was built on excellent three shooters Allen and Pierce. In 08 they had four shooters averaging 3.8+ attempts per game on 38% or better.

The 2013 Heat had 5 players taking 2.4+ threes per game on 39% or better shooting.

The 2013 Spurs had five players taking 2.2+ threes per game on 35% or better from three. They almost beat the Heat thanks to Danny Green gping thermonuclear from three. He opened 4/9, 5/5, 7/9, 3/5, 6/10 feom three as the Spurs took their 3-2 series lead. In the final two games he was 1/5 and 1/6. That series was nearly won, then lost based on three point shooting.

The 2014 Spurs had six players average 2+ attempts on 35% or better, four of those shot 40% or better.

The Rockets were pushing the three ball before the concept really took off.

The three really was a big part of playoff success at least as early as 2008, but teams were slow to fully appreciate it's importance. They needed it and the teams that happened to have it did really well, yet there was a 6-8 year period where it wasn't embraced despite consistent indications it should be.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Lousy reffing and primitive offenses that hadn't yet figured out the math of the relatively new 3 pointer. David Stern brought corrupt reffing to the NBA at a extremely high level to boost up Jordan. It's nothing new that some teams are allowed to be more physical than others. Pre Stern the reffing was done much more by the book

I posted this in another thread

Here's a different take from some older players some years back:

Watch on YouTube

Bird:
"I like the game now, I think they've cleaned it up as far as the grabbing and holding and cheap shots"

"We wouldn't even guard guys beyond the 3PT line, we would stay way underneath and go under every pick" - Note that when people say this, some people react like they are making it up

"I can remember Danny (Ainge) talking about using it back then, he thought, you could shoot 35, 36% from 3 and better than if you shot 50% from the 2's" - Yes, everyone wasn't oblivious to this reality

It was figured out pretty early, just not utilized

I'm not quite sure what the right way to phrase this idea is, but it's something like they had the head knowledge, but not the heart knowledge. They saw the math, but it didn't register. They knew the truth, but didn't trust the truth. Until knowledge produces action, it's mostly useless. It's odd that it took 30+ years for that to happen.

[tsherkin]

There was a fairly decent amount of perimeter talent at the time. The emphasis was a little more on the small forward position than on the shooting guard slot, for sure, but there were plenty of perimeter scorers in the 90s.

You are listing guys like Jordan(and others) who weren't three-point shooters at all. I think our definition of perimeter is rather different. I don't consider anything inside the line to be "perimeter." At least not from a 2025 perspective.

The video I responded to had the Rockets blitzing Steph about 30 feet out and said you didn't have that in the 90s. The Rockets aren't blitzing Steph because they're worried he's going to burn them with 20-foot jumpers, they're doing it because he's averaged 10 three point attempts a game every year for a decade. No one was blitzed at 30 feet in the 90s because no one shot from 30 feet in the 90s.

THere's more to the perimeter than the 3pt shot, but if you're trying to say that there was no one like Steph, absolutely. And no one you needed to legitimately pick up at halfcourt, either, for sure. Steph is a WILD shooter, and as I've already noted, would absolutely be fine in the 90s.

[dhsilv2]

There was a fairly decent amount of perimeter talent at the time. The emphasis was a little more on the small forward position than on the shooting guard slot, for sure, but there were plenty of perimeter scorers in the 90s.

You are listing guys like Jordan(and others) who weren't three-point shooters at all. I think our definition of perimeter is rather different. I don't consider anything inside the line to be "perimeter." At least not from a 2025 perspective.

The video I responded to had the Rockets blitzing Steph about 30 feet out and said you didn't have that in the 90s. The Rockets aren't blitzing Steph because they're worried he's going to burn them with 20-foot jumpers, they're doing it because he's averaged 10 three point attempts a game every year for a decade. No one was blitzed at 30 feet in the 90s because no one shot from 30 feet in the 90s.

You're right that teams would have adapted some. But that just plays into Curry's hands, you take him off ball once that happens and suddenly the floor will just open up for other players. That's always been the 'magic' that made him a star. And the less spacing there is, the more his added spacing makes things easier for others.

And again we all saw the rise of 3 point shooters when they took 3 of the years in the 90's to reduce the 3 point line. People keep skipping over Curry would get 3 seasons to shoot at the college 3 point line in the 90's.

[dhsilv2]

Lousy reffing and primitive offenses that hadn't yet figured out the math of the relatively new 3 pointer. David Stern brought corrupt reffing to the NBA at a extremely high level to boost up Jordan. It's nothing new that some teams are allowed to be more physical than others. Pre Stern the reffing was done much more by the book

I posted this in another thread

Here's a different take from some older players some years back:

Watch on YouTube

Bird:
"I like the game now, I think they've cleaned it up as far as the grabbing and holding and cheap shots"

"We wouldn't even guard guys beyond the 3PT line, we would stay way underneath and go under every pick" - Note that when people say this, some people react like they are making it up

"I can remember Danny (Ainge) talking about using it back then, he thought, you could shoot 35, 36% from 3 and better than if you shot 50% from the 2's" - Yes, everyone wasn't oblivious to this reality

It was figured out pretty early, just not utilized

I'm not quite sure what the right way to phrase this idea is, but it's something like they had the head knowledge, but not the heart knowledge. They saw the math, but it didn't register. They knew the truth, but didn't trust the truth. Until knowledge produces action, it's mostly useless. It's odd that it took 30+ years for that to happen.

I wish I could remember if it was Doc Rivers or Reggie Theus but one of them back in the day was on air talking about the math on 3's vs 2's and even said he used it when negotiating his contract. Essentially he argued eFG% before we had a term. So for sure a lot of guards realized it. But it's hard to have a 35% shot become super used. If someone like Curry however is doing it at 40%..that sounds a HELL of a lot easier to argue for a coach. Just the power of how a number "feels". 35 sounds bad. 40 suddenly sounds pretty decent.