Ryoga Hibiki wrote:rate_ wrote:Ryoga Hibiki wrote:They were played differently by the defenses, Miami was going all.out against Dirk.
Dirk was +40 for the series, while Dallas was -26 without him.
Wade was -6, the team was -8 without him.
Then there's the different impact in the 4th quarter.
The only thing Wade had over Dirk was ts%, and it's quite disappointing to see Elgee running with it.
Wade was a better all around player overall: as a rebounder, passer and defender while averaging the most points among both teams on superior efficiency. Dirk did shine in the 4th quarters but that doesn't mean his performances in quarters 1-3 should be ignored. His overall TS% was still a subpar 53.7% in the series. Wade shared duties with LeBron, who was very underwhelming for his standards while Dallas supporting cast overachieved.
Wade: 32.6 PER | 1.3 WS | 26.5 PPG | 7.0 RPG | 5.2 APG | 3.0 stocks
Dirk: 21.8 PER | 0.7 WS | 26.0 PPG | 9.7 RPG | 2.0 APG | 1.3 stocks
Elgee was completely correct in his decision that Wade was the best player in the series and was also the best player in the 2006 Finals, so this performance was not a fluke.
My issue is that Elgee sometimes goes on a tangent explaining how the boxscore is not catching the full impact. How Curry in the finals was more important than Durant because of the gravity and the way the defense was selling out to defend it. Even makes a video on how Curry si impacting the offense even when he's not making his shots.
Then we have a case of Dirk missing more shots than usual (mostly in Game 6, the only one he had a negative on/off) while being the engine of the offense and the Heat going all in to stop him, giving the likes of Terry, Marion, Chandler and Barea the space to operate, and Kidd the possibility to find them.
At the same time, the Mavs are prioritizing guarding LeBron, and that allows Wade to go 1v1.
And this is captured by on/off (that is a statistic, fwiw), with the Mavs falling apart without Dirk, while the Heat were almost at the same level without Wade.
Instead I have to read about PER and WS for a single series... and hear Elgee all the time bloating about how *GREAT* Chandler, Kidd and Marion were.
Great observation. I actually think Elgee misunderstands the archetype of Nowitzki. Being an hyper efficient (not very high volume) volume scorer as a 7footer is just not what makes him special. It is that added by his off ball gravity. But while Elgee understands his supreme scoring, I do not think he gives Nowitzki the credit he deserves for opening the defense. I remember a podcast episode where he landed behind Rip Hamilton and just one position before AD. The evolution of the league and how big guys are used nowadays (and the analog explosion in offensive efficiency) just indicates what value skilled and shooting players players on this position. Nowitzki would have great gravity in todays game. But his prime was already 15-20 years ago. In the worst offensive iso ball stretch of basketball. We are not comparing his value to the the average 2025 Markannens or Randles, who already bring shooting by themselves. Just because we learned what helps offenses. He brought that impact when the typical power forward was more like a Boozer or Randolph, who operated near the basket with the option of shooting some spot ups from the foul line range.
His impact stats and overall +/- stats can not be overlooked throughout his career. But in a small sample size like a playoff series it just can not be trusted. Elgee looks at what drives the impact. And in the case of Curry or Jokic the impact is not lost even if they shoot bad, because he can explain that it initially is created by the opportunities they create for others with their presence. If an efficient volume scorer is not scoring efficiently, the easiest derivation is the player is losing great pieces of his impact.
picc wrote:Ryoga Hibiki wrote:rate_ wrote:Wade was a better all around player overall: as a rebounder, passer and defender while averaging the most points among both teams on superior efficiency. Dirk did shine in the 4th quarters but that doesn't mean his performances in quarters 1-3 should be ignored. His overall TS% was still a subpar 53.7% in the series. Wade shared duties with LeBron, who was very underwhelming for his standards while Dallas supporting cast overachieved.
Wade: 32.6 PER | 1.3 WS | 26.5 PPG | 7.0 RPG | 5.2 APG | 3.0 stocks
Dirk: 21.8 PER | 0.7 WS | 26.0 PPG | 9.7 RPG | 2.0 APG | 1.3 stocks
Elgee was completely correct in his decision that Wade was the best player in the series and was also the best player in the 2006 Finals, so this performance was not a fluke.
My issue is that Elgee sometimes goes on a tangent explaining how the boxscore is not catching the full impact. How Curry in the finals was more important than Durant because of the gravity and the way the defense was selling out to defend it. Even makes a video on how Curry si impacting the offense even when he's not making his shots.
Then we have a case of Dirk missing more shots than usual (mostly in Game 6, the only one he had a negative on/off) while being the engine of the offense and the Heat going all in to stop him, giving the likes of Terry, Marion, Chandler and Barea the space to operate, and Kidd the possibility to find them.
At the same time, the Mavs are prioritizing guarding LeBron, and that allows Wade to go 1v1.
And this is captured by on/off (that is a statistic, fwiw), with the Mavs falling apart without Dirk, while the Heat were almost at the same level without Wade.
Instead I have to read about PER and WS for a single series... and hear Elgee all the time bloating about how *GREAT* Chandler, Kidd and Marion were.
Its funny cause I was just watching the '11 finals and it didn't take more than a couple games to realize this talking point doesn't have legs.
- Wade was torching the Mavs so bad they switched Marion onto him from Lebron (and still couldn't stop him). Difficult to argue the Mavs were so unbothered by Wade when they deliberately switched their best defender to him from the guy they supposedly were obsessed with stopping, and were double teaming him in the post when other players were on him
Sorry, but that is just not what happened. Marion hat the coverage for LeBron the whole series, with the exception of G4. Otherwise Wade was mostly matched up against Stevenson or Kidd, and obviously killed the Barea-Terry combination that was played off the bench all the time. Also Wade was not double teamed explicitely. It was just common in that time to hedge high in PnR. Dallas was far more concerned with LeBron than with Wade and structured their defense to get the ball out of LeBrons hand with the goal of letting the other players make plays.
picc wrote:- Wade's defense was an actual factor in the series, while Dirk was invisible on that end for the most part. He was significantly better on defense than Dirk was, even at the rim despite giving up 5 inches
Sure, the Mavs held the team with the third best offensive rating under league average with Dirk being invisible. That is just another all timer. Nowitzki never was bad on defense. All impact stats agree on that. In that series specifically he was the best defensive rebounder, positioned himself very good in the Mavs scheme to overload with Chandler (remember someone has to rotate) and reducing fast breaks because he was having a better position as a player the the three point line.
Wade on the other side was good but nothing special. He always stands out with highlight plays but I did not see him lock up JJ and JET in G5 and G6 or being a pest as a help defender.
picc wrote:- Dirk was indeed pulling his man out and drawing doubles that led to open shots, which you have to give credit to. But he just wasn't playing well outside of that. Not scoring well. Not shooting well. Turning the ball over. Some awesome clutchness too, for sure. But at some point you have to stop using gravity as a catch-all excuse for subpar play, which is an argument I've made about Curry in quite a few series as well. Like sure, in the 2015 finals his gravity was a factor, but he was also playing like dog **** in many other facets, including his decision making, which is why someone else could even be considered for MVP the first place. It had to happen somehow, right? Dirk was clearly the most valuable Mav or non-Wade Heat player in the series, but Wade was simply much more impressive on both ends -- full stop. Even moreso than I remembered before rewatching.
To me the +/- stats in the finals are so eye-opening. Just be aware that the Mavs without Nowitzki were -4.2, -5.5 and -7.0 in the three seasons from 2010 to 2012. They were miserable without him. When he went down in the season they finished their nine games with a record of 2-7. However when they play with him the Mavs are elite. The very same is true for this series. Dirk was +40 for the series, while Dallas was -26 without him. Wade was -6, the team was -8 without him. It is just funny to imagine the Mavs without Nowitzki killing the Heat without Wade but with LeBron and Bosh. But if they couldn't, how in the world is Wade the most valuable player in this series. That just does not make sense to me.
Btw, in the book Thinking Basketball is a section where Elgee argues that James, despite his mediocre play, was the better player in the series than Nowitzki. It is just facinating to me, how good the Mavs supporting cast apparently was, despite being losing all the time Nowitzki was not on the court.
picc wrote:More '11 Finals notes:
- Jason Kidd was freaking awesome on defense this series. Unbelievable. I've thought he was the best defensive point ever for a while (at least of the star level players), but his offense even in his prime was so underwhelming I didn't see him as anywhere near the Nash's and CP3's. And now I'm wondering how much his possession to possession defensive impact makes up the gap. While Nash or Paul is still the much better option as the best player on your team, I think there's a real argument for preferring Kidd on teams that already have an offensive stud who can put points on the board
Kidd was a solid defensive player at this stage, who had a really good playoffs run. At the same time he looked bad the playoffs before 2011, against Parker and Billups. He certainly did help to perform on defense in this playoffs. He guarded Kobe pretty good and was especially valuable with defending bigger guys like KD and LeBron. But he could not guard Wade very well. Which is a reason why he performed so good in the finals.
Furthermore, the love for Kidd and the 10/11 Mavs in the episode is just too much. That team definitely clicked during the championship run, but still must be one of the worst supporting casts of a Finals MVP ever. The discussion of Ben and Cody about Dirk having „one of the best ever built teams“ to undermine his carrying job here is just absurd.
