Why is there silence after another Jokic embarrassing defeat?

[DutchManDanFan]

Dude, no one cares about European regional tournaments. I forgot that "Eurobasket" was on until the weekend. I can't image the players take this seriously either.

The Olympics are all that matters for basketball. Mostly because the US brings all their best players. If the US isn't involved, it doesn't matter.

European teams care a lot about Eurobasket. If the big stars like Jokic, Giannis, and Luka didn't care they wouldn't participate. Games are competitive and these guys have a ton of pride. The nations that are represented by their teams' participation care as well.

I can promise that the "Big Three" and other guys like Markannen, Valanciunas, and Sengun are competing quite hard.

I think that comes from pressure from their countrymen. They probably just want them to show up and act like they care. Winning it all is a bonus.

It's like the UEFA nations league in football. No one cares about that tournament, it's not as prestigious as the World Cup or Eurocup.

This is like the Eurocup in football.
And in football winning the World Cup or Eurocup is a bigger thing for players than winning the Champions League.
With basketball winning in the NBA might be more important, but it's close and depands who you ask. I think Giannis rather wins with Greece than a 2nd NBA title.

[Doctor MJ]

European teams care a lot about Eurobasket. If the big stars like Jokic, Giannis, and Luka didn't care they wouldn't participate. Games are competitive and these guys have a ton of pride. The nations that are represented by their teams' participation care as well.

I can promise that the "Big Three" and other guys like Markannen, Valanciunas, and Sengun are competing quite hard.

I think that comes from pressure from their countrymen. They probably just want them to show up and act like they care. Winning it all is a bonus.

It's like the UEFA nations league in football. No one cares about that tournament, it's not as prestigious as the World Cup or Eurocup.

This is like the Eurocup in football.
And in football winning the World Cup or Eurocup is a bigger thing for players than winning the Champions League.
With basketball winning in the NBA might be more important, but it's close and depands who you ask. I think Giannis rather wins with Greece than a 2nd NBA title.

It's like EuroCup, except in a sport where Europe is much less important.

[DutchManDanFan]

Perhaps Jokic isn’t that greatest player of all time like the Stan’s think.

I’ve been here a long time and I’ve never once seen anyone say Jokic is the greatest player of all time…

But let’s just keep making up stuff for the sake of discourse.

Well, I have seen enough threads in which it was suggested he is one of the all time greats. And I'm quite sure some posters think he's the goat.
But with this thread it is questioned if he's the best player at the moment. And/or if he's the best player of his generation.
It's not possible to answer this because of one FIBA game. But the weakness of Jokic was obvious in that game. In a way that you can claim he's not the best player right now. But that's not a popular opinion on this board. So as OP stated, there was silence on this board about his performance and people try to change the subject to claim that Eurobasket is not important.

[Mirotic12]

European teams care a lot about Eurobasket. If the big stars like Jokic, Giannis, and Luka didn't care they wouldn't participate. Games are competitive and these guys have a ton of pride. The nations that are represented by their teams' participation care as well.

I can promise that the "Big Three" and other guys like Markannen, Valanciunas, and Sengun are competing quite hard.

I think that comes from pressure from their countrymen. They probably just want them to show up and act like they care. Winning it all is a bonus.

It's like the UEFA nations league in football. No one cares about that tournament, it's not as prestigious as the World Cup or Eurocup.

This is like the Eurocup in football.
And in football winning the World Cup or Eurocup is a bigger thing for players than winning the Champions League.
With basketball winning in the NBA might be more important, but it's close and depands who you ask. I think Giannis rather wins with Greece than a 2nd NBA title.

All the European players say winning the EuroBasket is more important than winning an NBA championship.

[SpurNani]

Perhaps Jokic isn’t that greatest player of all time like the Stan’s think.

I’ve been here a long time and I’ve never once seen anyone say Jokic is the greatest player of all time…

But let’s just keep making up stuff for the sake of discourse.

Well, I have seen enough threads in which it was suggested he is one of the all time greats. And I'm quite sure some posters think he's the goat.
But with this thread it is questioned if he's the best player at the moment. And/or if he's the best player of his generation.
It's not possible to answer this because of one FIBA game. But the weakness of Jokic was obvious in that game. In a way that you can claim he's not the best player right now. But that's not a popular opinion on this board. So as OP stated, there was silence on this board about his performance and people try to change the subject to claim that Eurobasket is not important.

Thank you perfectly stated.

[DutchManDanFan]

This is like the Eurocup in football.
And in football winning the World Cup or Eurocup is a bigger thing for players than winning the Champions League.
With basketball winning in the NBA might be more important, but it's close and depands who you ask. I think Giannis rather wins with Greece than a 2nd NBA title.

It's like EuroCup, except in a sport where Europe is much less important.

Wrong again.
It's not the no 1 sport in Europe, but it's big. Its between the best countries in the world with only the best country missing. For European players and the basketball fans this is huge.

[SpurNani]

No. An emotional response is forming your opinion on a player based on a couple of threads where some posters wondered if Jokic is best offensive player ever/best since MJ. When in reality, it was an opinion by some random minds that believe something. Going on a crusade to devalue Jokic with a large percentage of ones posts based on a couple random opinions is a wild crusade to me.

One thread is a 'wild crusade'.

Coming from OP it is. Look at his posting history and you tell me. 90 percent is anti Jokic.

Also, AleksandarN please stop DMing me on here to call me names all because I think your hero can't guard a wet paper bag at the rim.

I understand you are a Serbian fan and Jokic is god tier like to you, but I am simply calling it like I see it.

[Infinite Llamas]

Perhaps Jokic isn’t that greatest player of all time like the Stan’s think.

I’ve been here a long time and I’ve never once seen anyone say Jokic is the greatest player of all time…

But let’s just keep making up stuff for the sake of discourse.

Well, I have seen enough threads in which it was suggested he is one of the all time greats. And I'm quite sure some posters think he's the goat.
But with this thread it is questioned if he's the best player at the moment. And/or if he's the best player of his generation.
It's not possible to answer this because of one FIBA game. But the weakness of Jokic was obvious in that game. In a way that you can claim he's not the best player right now. But that's not a popular opinion on this board. So as OP stated, there was silence on this board about his performance and people try to change the subject to claim that Eurobasket is not important.

People claim Jokic is an all time great because he IS an all time great.

What are we even debating here at this point?

Luka fans think Luka is the best in the game
Giannis fans think Giannis is the best in the world
Shai fans think Shai is the best in the world
Jokic fans think Jokic is the best

There will never be a consensus. The faster you realize that, the better. And don’t expect a single elimination game will change anybody’s mind on their stance either.

[Wingy]

Not sure if you can blame the guy eho put 33/8/3 in that game. Guduric pulled a Kobe vs the Pistons and shoot them out of them game in the last minutes with 3 or 4 missed threes in a row.

That probably doesn't happen, if Bogi stays healthy

Didn’t watch that, but it sounds like Micic in the Olympics vs the US. Guy got delusions of grandeur and that really hurt in a tight game.

[Mephariel]

I mean, I guess every moment in the past is history, and sure, the world is catching up. That said, in the past 20 years the US is 5-0 for Gold's in the Olympics and has gone 35-1 in that span.

So its past history is impressive, and its recent history is impressive.

The best players in the world may not be American, but many are. And that's the thing, the US still dominates there too. I know all NBA teams aren't the end all and be all of rankings, but the US had 11 of the 15 players in the 1st-3rd teams. The other 4 countries had one each. Which is why the US will continue to be heavy favorites in the future.

The 2028 USA roster will not be anywhere close to heavy favorites. They will have a boost to possibly being slight favorites, just because they are the home team. Because the refs always favor the home team. It shouldn't be that way, but it is.

But the USA's next generation of players is the same thing as what Argentina and Spain have had happen already with their next generation of players.

It's a dramatic drop off in the level and quality of the players, as compared to the previous generation of players.

You don't even know how good the next generation of players are going to be. We'll see.

Giannis, Jokic, etc. would be close to 35 years old in 2028. Why do you act like European teams don't age?

[Mirotic12]

Not sure if you can blame the guy eho put 33/8/3 in that game. Guduric pulled a Kobe vs the Pistons and shoot them out of them game in the last minutes with 3 or 4 missed threes in a row.

That probably doesn't happen, if Bogi stays healthy

Didn’t watch that, but it sounds like Micic in the Olympics vs the US. Guy got delusions of grandeur and that really hurt in a tight game.

Serbia lost the game mainly because Jokic played some of the worst defense I've ever seen at a major FIBA tournament.

Despite whatever motive or agenda some posters here are accusing the OP of having (I don't pretend to know what their personal intent is myself), we should also be objective and fair, and be honest about how Finland beat Serbia.

They beat them mainly because they scored on Jokic on defense, over and over in the 4th quarter.

I'm not agreeing that somehow now destroys Jokic's legacy, or exposes him, or whatever other stuff people are arguing about.

But it's important to keep accuacy to what happened in the game, in terms of what the main deciding factor of the game was.

[SpurNani]

Perhaps Jokic isn’t that greatest player of all time like the Stan’s think.

I’ve been here a long time and I’ve never once seen anyone say Jokic is the greatest player of all time…

But let’s just keep making up stuff for the sake of discourse.

viewtopic.php?t=2373467

Took me 15 seconds to locate a thread statinh Jokic the best player since Jordan. There's many many more outlandish ones I can find.

[Infinite Llamas]

Perhaps Jokic isn’t that greatest player of all time like the Stan’s think.

I’ve been here a long time and I’ve never once seen anyone say Jokic is the greatest player of all time…

But let’s just keep making up stuff for the sake of discourse.

viewtopic.php?t=2373467

Took me 15 seconds to locate a thread statinh Jokic the best player since Jordan. There's many many more outlandish ones I can find.

…and?

I once started a thread saying Sullinger would turn into an all nba player.

Forming your beliefs around some random threads based on random opinions is a fruitless endeavor.

And even then, it doesn’t refute my claim that I’ve never seen someone say Jokic is the best ever.

[AleksandarN]

One thread is a 'wild crusade'.

Coming from OP it is. Look at his posting history and you tell me. 90 percent is anti Jokic.

Also, AleksandarN please stop DMing me on here to call me names all because I think your hero can't guard a wet paper bag at the rim.

I understand you are a Serbian fan and Jokic is god tier like to you, but I am simply calling it like I see it.

Where did I call you names? Look you post more about Jokic than I do. This is obviously an alt account. If I am wrong then who is your favourite team/players and why do you post more about Jokic then your favourite team/player?

[SpurNani]

Not sure if you can blame the guy eho put 33/8/3 in that game. Guduric pulled a Kobe vs the Pistons and shoot them out of them game in the last minutes with 3 or 4 missed threes in a row.

That probably doesn't happen, if Bogi stays healthy

Didn’t watch that, but it sounds like Micic in the Olympics vs the US. Guy got delusions of grandeur and that really hurt in a tight game.

Serbia lost the game mainly because Jokic played some of the worst defense I've ever seen at a major FIBA tournament.

Despite whatever motive or agenda some posters here are accusing the OP of having (I don't pretend to know what their personal intent is myself), we should also be objective and fair, and be honest about how Finland beat Serbia.

They beat them mainly because they scored on Jokic on defense, over and over in the 4th quarter.

I'm not agreeing that somehow now destroys Jokic's legacy, or exposes him, or whatever other stuff people are arguing about.

But it's important to keep accuacy to what happened in the game, in terms of what the main deciding factor of the game was.

Thank you. Great post, all I was trying to highlight. Serbia was favored and lost mainly due to Jokic being targeted and scored on late in the clutch.

Im not saying this makes Jokic a bad player or he's not great, but it merely coincides to a disturbing trend ive seen from Jokic lately in big win or go home games no matter the league.

In the Olympics vs USA, he was targeted late and gave up several big baskets to Embiid to let USA back in the game. https://youtu.be/c0OnGMNi0SM?si=yfpE3RlXXzll3APs

In NBA playoffs game 7 vs OKC he refuses to shoot all second half and looks befuddled/irritated that a 6'4 player was guarding him effectively.

Game 7 vs Clippers Jokic gets off to a 0/5 start with two turnovers but it didn't matter because his much maligned Nuggets team picked up slack and blew out Clippers.

And NBA playoffs game 7 vs Timberwolves Jokic plays the entire 2nd half and is on the court for the biggest game 7 collapse in NBA history.

Just a disturbing trend in the biggest games lately for Mr Jokic is what I was pointing out and how easily he can be targeted on defense by opposing teams in the biggest of moments.

[Nate505]

I mean, I guess every moment in the past is history, and sure, the world is catching up. That said, in the past 20 years the US is 5-0 for Gold's in the Olympics and has gone 35-1 in that span.

So its past history is impressive, and its recent history is impressive.

The best players in the world may not be American, but many are. And that's the thing, the US still dominates there too. I know all NBA teams aren't the end all and be all of rankings, but the US had 11 of the 15 players in the 1st-3rd teams. The other 4 countries had one each. Which is why the US will continue to be heavy favorites in the future.

The 2028 USA roster will not be anywhere close to heavy favorites. They will have a boost to possibly being slight favorites, just because they are the home team. Because the refs always favor the home team. It shouldn't be that way, but it is.

But the USA's next generation of players is the same thing as what Argentina and Spain have had happen already with their next generation of players.

It's a dramatic drop off in the level and quality of the players, as compared to the previous generation of players.

I bet they're overwhelming the betting favorite at negative odds, while every other country will have plus odds.

[Mirotic12]

I mean, I guess every moment in the past is history, and sure, the world is catching up. That said, in the past 20 years the US is 5-0 for Gold's in the Olympics and has gone 35-1 in that span.

So its past history is impressive, and its recent history is impressive.

The best players in the world may not be American, but many are. And that's the thing, the US still dominates there too. I know all NBA teams aren't the end all and be all of rankings, but the US had 11 of the 15 players in the 1st-3rd teams. The other 4 countries had one each. Which is why the US will continue to be heavy favorites in the future.

The 2028 USA roster will not be anywhere close to heavy favorites. They will have a boost to possibly being slight favorites, just because they are the home team. Because the refs always favor the home team. It shouldn't be that way, but it is.

But the USA's next generation of players is the same thing as what Argentina and Spain have had happen already with their next generation of players.

It's a dramatic drop off in the level and quality of the players, as compared to the previous generation of players.

You don't even know how good the next generation of players are going to be. We'll see.

Giannis, Jokic, etc. would be close to 35 years old in 2028. Why do you act like European teams don't age?

The current young American players wouldn't have won gold in 2000, 2004, 2008, 2012, 2016, 2021, or 2024.

And in all honesty, they might not have even won in 1992 or 1996.

[Wingy]

Not sure if you can blame the guy eho put 33/8/3 in that game. Guduric pulled a Kobe vs the Pistons and shoot them out of them game in the last minutes with 3 or 4 missed threes in a row.

That probably doesn't happen, if Bogi stays healthy

Didn’t watch that, but it sounds like Micic in the Olympics vs the US. Guy got delusions of grandeur and that really hurt in a tight game.

Serbia lost the game mainly because Jokic played some of the worst defense I've ever seen at a major FIBA tournament.

Despite whatever motive or agenda some posters here are accusing the OP of having (I don't pretend to know what their personal intent is myself), we should also be objective and fair, and be honest about how Finland beat Serbia.

They beat them mainly because they scored on Jokic on defense, over and over in the 4th quarter.

I'm not agreeing that somehow now destroys Jokic's legacy, or exposes him, or whatever other stuff people are arguing about.

But it's important to keep accuacy to what happened in the game, in terms of what the main deciding factor of the game was.

I honestly don’t care.

I was making an observation about a completely unrelated player.

[Doctor MJ]

This is like the Eurocup in football.
And in football winning the World Cup or Eurocup is a bigger thing for players than winning the Champions League.
With basketball winning in the NBA might be more important, but it's close and depands who you ask. I think Giannis rather wins with Greece than a 2nd NBA title.

It's like EuroCup, except in a sport where Europe is much less important.

Wrong again.
It's not the no 1 sport in Europe, but it's big. Its between the best countries in the world with only the best country missing. For European players and the basketball fans this is huge.

I didn't say basketball was less important to Europe, I said Europe was less important to basketball.

Re: "best countries in the world missing only the best country". You say that like it's not being compared with tournaments that actually feature the best country, which is just weird.

Just to put a contrast out there:

In the FIFA World Cup, Europe has won 4 out of the last 5 titles.

In the basketball Olympics, no existing European country has ever won Gold.

You just can't act like these things are the same and expect to be taken seriously by those in the nation that 17 of the 21 tourneys in Olympic basketball history and takes the Olympics more seriously than any other competition with negligible direct financial incentive.

[realball]

I think there's 4 players - Jokic, Shai, Luka, Giannis who can all hold claim to being called the best player in the world.

I dont think Jokic has done enough or accomplished enough to be considered the unquestioned best. His playoff resume is thin outside of a historically weak 2023 NBA playoff field.

Why would you put Giannis on this list, considering his playoff resume is weaker? He's hasn't made it out of the first round in years. How is Luka on this list, considering he's never even won a championship? Clearly, you can't have this discussion with any sense of objectivity.

What Luka did in 24 playoffs was far more impressive than what Jokic did in 23 playoffs when you consider the competition faced by both respective teams.

Luka carried his team past 3 50 win teams, including the Timberwolves who took Jokic out in 24 and the OKC Thunder who took Jokic out the following year. Oh and none took him 7 games to do so. He just so happened to run into the Celtics who were one of the greatest teams we've seen this decade.

Contrast that to Jokic in 23, who beat play in Timberwolves who were missing Naz Reid, Jaden McDaniels, hurt Rudy Gobert. They beat the Suns who had KD and Booker and basically nobody else. KD and Booker only played 13 total games together before Jokic faced them in playoffs.

And they beat 43 win play in Lakers with 39 year old Lebron and Anthony Davis, who isn't a true center. And then they beat the Miami Heat who lost their first play in game. Miami was also without their most dynamic young scorer in Tyler Herro.

Jokic just beat his first 50 win team this this year. Luka beat 3 50 win teams in 24 alone and led the entire playoffs in points, rebounds, assists. Just vastly different levels of competition ill take Luka in 24 over Jokic 23.

Okay, then why is Giannis on your list?

Luka was playing with HOFer Kyrie. You said Murray had the same impact during their championship run... so since he's been no where near that level ever since, it's fair to say that Jokic has had way less support than Doncic, right? Because Luka just got booted in the first round in six games while playing with Lebron James, while Jokic took the eventual champs to seven games, and that's with his second best player, Aaron Gordon, getting hurt during the series. And re-read that, his second best player was Aaron Gordon. Just goes to show what kind of support Jokic has.

There's just zero consistency in your logic here. Doncic had a mediocre supporting cast in Dallas, but Jokic's supporting cast has just been downright poor. We've seen Jokic carry even worse supporting casts, with Will Barton as the second best player, to the playoffs. We've seen him come back from 3-1 deficits multiple times. And he's done it without any HOF, let alone All-Star teammates. He's a C averaging a near triple double on elite efficiency, no one's going to forget all of this because his team had poor outings in the playoffs.