How are people not putting Jokic in their top 15 yet?

[threethehardway]

The reason is because most of the fans that do rankings are GenXers and elder millennials that are still stuck on the 90s and 2000s.

Jokic and Curry are easily top 10 players in NBA history.

It doesn't require much thought.

But now everyone is burdened by history and would rather show deference to the past instead of affirming the present.

[hagredionis]

The reason is because most of the fans that do rankings are GenXers and elder millennials that are still stuck on the 90s and 2000s.

Jokic and Curry are easily top 10 players in NBA history.

It doesn't require much thought.

But now everyone is burdened by history and would rather show deference to the past instead of affirming the present.

Neither of these guys is "easily a top 10 players in NBA history". Jokic needs to improve his defense and probably win one or two more titles. Curry has an argument for top 10 because he has the rings and he did revolutionize the game with his playstyle. The problem is that of the 4 titles he won he was only once the FMVP. Kind of weird for a guy to be top 10 in NBA history but then 3 times out of 4 wasn't even the best player on his team in the finals.

[dhsilv2]

I truly am baffled with your inability to reconcile the impact of all the above on your own. If you have some arbitrary formula that you personally assign value you to, you’re more than welcome to take five minutes of your own time either share it or calibrate it on your own.

But I can say that the Nuggets had the 6th worst defense in the playoffs

It’s almost as if you don’t understand impact. Why do you think that is? Look, i would like to hate Jokic as much as the next guy. The politics he represents are appalling (again, just my opinion). But despite how much i would like to just hate, his IMPACT on defense is positive. Sometimes us haters just got to admit defeat

Jokic needs an athletic pf like Gordon next to him to protect the rim he is the worst top center at rim protection. Jokic is a great offensive player but he can’t do the one job on defense that a center needs to do which is block and alter shots. That’s why I never will put him over guys like Wilt Kareem Russell Dream Shaq Duncan

Guys like Gordon aren't that rare. And I'm a big fan of Gordon and fully agree that you need someone else to help at the rim with Jokic. But as long as you can pair Jokic with a rim protector...who cares? For all I care call Jokic the point guard and pair him with a center. Positions are just made up tools to teach the game to children.

[dhsilv2]

I don't care what any player's counting stats are, unless you win at LEAST 2 championships, you do not belong in the top 20.

And this is coming from someone who believes Jokic has been the best player in the NBA the last 5 years.

I gotta see your top 20 given you can't have the following players in it.

West
Oscar
KG
Dirk
Chuck
Cp3
Moses
Nash
Giannis
Harden
Ewing
Pettit
Stockton
Miller
Kidd
Barry
Gilmore
AD

Here's the player comp board's list with these adjustments.

1. LeBron James
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Michael Jordan
4. Bill Russell
5. Tim Duncan
6. Hakeem Olajuwon
7. Wilt Chamberlain
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Magic Johnson
10. Steph Curry
11. Larry Bird
12. Kobe Bryant
13. George Mikan
14. David Robinson
15. Julius Erving (only 1 NBA but do we count ABA?)
16. Kevin Durant (do his warrior titles count?)
17. Dwyane Wade
18. Scottie Pippen
19. Kawhi Leonard
20. Walt Frazier

21. John Havlicek
22. Manu Ginobili

[dhsilv2]

The reason is because most of the fans that do rankings are GenXers and elder millennials that are still stuck on the 90s and 2000s.

Jokic and Curry are easily top 10 players in NBA history.

It doesn't require much thought.

But now everyone is burdened by history and would rather show deference to the past instead of affirming the present.

Neither of these guys is "easily a top 10 players in NBA history". Jokic needs to improve his defense and probably win one or two more titles. Curry has an argument for top 10 because he has the rings and he did revolutionize the game with his playstyle. The problem is that of the 4 titles he won he was only once the FMVP. Kind of weird for a guy to be top 10 in NBA history but then 3 times out of 4 wasn't even the best player on his team in the finals.

Curry was the best player in the finals in 2015. Don't even try going there. And he's got a strong cause both years with KD.

[threethehardway]

Neither of these guys is "easily a top 10 players in NBA history". Jokic needs to improve his defense and probably win one or two more titles. Curry has an argument for top 10 because he has the rings and he did revolutionize the game with his playstyle. The problem is that of the 4 titles he won he was only once the FMVP. Kind of weird for a guy to be top 10 in NBA history but then 3 times out of 4 wasn't even the best player on his team in the finals.

Like I said, this is just made up criteria to keep modern players out of the discussion because old fans can't let go of their silly standards that makes no sense to anybody but them.

And unfortunately, old fans ruin the NBA fandom for the rest of that have moved on to modern players and don't talk about the lack of defense from a 3xMVP and NBA champion keeping him out of the Top 10.

Then wanna bring up a "rings Ernie" argument for Curry despite Curry contributing nothing defensively to his team.

So yeah, Jokic is the greatest offensive player to ever play at this point. He's easily a top 10 player in NBA history. Should've won 4 MVPs in a row but the media is stupid and Embiid is a crybaby.

I don't care about his defense, it's a team game. Players like Jokic, Magic and LeBron makes their teammates incredibly wealthy because the ball will find them in the best possible position to succeed.

Jokic is suffering from the same thing LeBron did. He's too good, too talented and he plays his position in a way that doesn't suit older fans because he doesn't contest every shot or fly around patrolling the paint. LeBron was the first perimeter star in a long time that didn't want to be a Jordan clone like Kobe. LeBron didn't get his flowers in the midst of his prime either despite obviously being the second best player ever by 2008-2009 and solidifying it by 2013-2014.


Lol old NBA fans top 10 are still players from the 70s 80s, 90s and 00 and we know for sure that players like Jokic and Curry are better most players in a top 10.

[Mephariel]

Neither of these guys is "easily a top 10 players in NBA history". Jokic needs to improve his defense and probably win one or two more titles. Curry has an argument for top 10 because he has the rings and he did revolutionize the game with his playstyle. The problem is that of the 4 titles he won he was only once the FMVP. Kind of weird for a guy to be top 10 in NBA history but then 3 times out of 4 wasn't even the best player on his team in the finals.

Like I said, this is just made up criteria to keep modern players out of the discussion because old fans can't let go of their silly standards that makes no sense to anybody but them.

And unfortunately, old fans ruin the NBA fandom for the rest of that have moved on to modern players and don't talk about the lack of defense from a 3xMVP and NBA champion keeping him out of the Top 10.

Then wanna bring up a "rings Ernie" argument for Curry despite Curry contributing nothing defensively to his team.

So yeah, Jokic is the greatest offensive player to ever play at this point. He's easily a top 10 player in NBA history. Should've won 4 MVPs in a row but the media is stupid and Embiid is a crybaby.

I don't care about his defense, it's a team game. Players like Jokic, Magic and LeBron makes their teammates incredibly wealthy because the ball will find them in the best possible position to succeed.

Jokic is suffering from the same thing LeBron did. He's too good, too talented and he plays his position in a way that doesn't suit older fans because he doesn't contest every shot or fly around patrolling the paint. LeBron was the first perimeter star in a long time that didn't want to be a Jordan clone like Kobe. LeBron didn't get his flowers in the midst of his prime either despite obviously being the second best player ever by 2008-2009 and solidifying it by 2013-2014.


Lol old NBA fans top 10 are still players from the 70s 80s, 90s and 00 and we know for sure that players like Jokic and Curry are better most players in a top 10.

I think Jokic has a case for being top 10 now, but the moment you said "I don't care about his defense," the pillar of your argument just fall apart.

Why wouldn't you care about defense? That is half of the game.

[hagredionis]

Neither of these guys is "easily a top 10 players in NBA history". Jokic needs to improve his defense and probably win one or two more titles. Curry has an argument for top 10 because he has the rings and he did revolutionize the game with his playstyle. The problem is that of the 4 titles he won he was only once the FMVP. Kind of weird for a guy to be top 10 in NBA history but then 3 times out of 4 wasn't even the best player on his team in the finals.

Like I said, this is just made up criteria to keep modern players out of the discussion because old fans can't let go of their silly standards that makes no sense to anybody but them.

And unfortunately, old fans ruin the NBA fandom for the rest of that have moved on to modern players and don't talk about the lack of defense from a 3xMVP and NBA champion keeping him out of the Top 10.

Then wanna bring up a "rings Ernie" argument for Curry despite Curry contributing nothing defensively to his team.

So yeah, Jokic is the greatest offensive player to ever play at this point. He's easily a top 10 player in NBA history. Should've won 4 MVPs in a row but the media is stupid and Embiid is a crybaby.

I don't care about his defense, it's a team game. Players like Jokic, Magic and LeBron makes their teammates incredibly wealthy because the ball will find them in the best possible position to succeed.

Jokic is suffering from the same thing LeBron did. He's too good, too talented and he plays his position in a way that doesn't suit older fans because he doesn't contest every shot or fly around patrolling the paint. LeBron was the first perimeter star in a long time that didn't want to be a Jordan clone like Kobe. LeBron didn't get his flowers in the midst of his prime either despite obviously being the second best player ever by 2008-2009 and solidifying it by 2013-2014.


Lol old NBA fans top 10 are still players from the 70s 80s, 90s and 00 and we know for sure that players like Jokic and Curry are better most players in a top 10.

Jokic is not the greatest offensive player to ever play, that's a ridiculous claim. MJ won 10x scoring titles plus has averaged at least 30 ppg for 8 seasons. Meanwhile Jokic has zero scoring titles and has never managed to avarage 30 ppg over a season even in this era of inflated scoring.

You might not care about his defense but the reality is that a center should anchor the defense and provide rim protection. I can't imagine him trying to defend Wilt, KAJ, Hakeem or Shaq for example. Jokic is a great player but to be in the discussion for a top 10 all time you need to play a really good defense especially if you are a center.

[NZB2323]

The reason is because most of the fans that do rankings are GenXers and elder millennials that are still stuck on the 90s and 2000s.

Jokic and Curry are easily top 10 players in NBA history.

It doesn't require much thought.

But now everyone is burdened by history and would rather show deference to the past instead of affirming the present.

I guess it’s easy to see that…

But it’s also easy to say that Russell and Wilt are easily top 10 players.

It’s easy to say that Kareem, Magic, and Bird are easily top 10 players.

It’s easy to say that Jordan and Hakeem are easily top 10 players.

It’s easy to say that Kobe, Shaq, and Duncan are easily top 10 players.

It’s easy to say that LeBron, Curry, and Jokic are easily top 10 players.

That’s 13 players.

[dhsilv2]

The reason is because most of the fans that do rankings are GenXers and elder millennials that are still stuck on the 90s and 2000s.

Jokic and Curry are easily top 10 players in NBA history.

It doesn't require much thought.

But now everyone is burdened by history and would rather show deference to the past instead of affirming the present.

I guess it’s easy to see that…

But it’s also easy to say that Russell and Wilt are easily top 10 players.

It’s easy to say that Kareem, Magic, and Bird are easily top 10 players.

It’s easy to say that Jordan and Hakeem are easily top 10 players.

It’s easy to say that Kobe, Shaq, and Duncan are easily top 10 players.

It’s easy to say that LeBron, Curry, and Jokic are easily top 10 players.

That’s 13 players.

Depending on how YOU think. It's easy to say...about 4-6 guys are top 10 players. None of those guys are in this discussion right now.

[Slade3]

Because the league history is full of amazing players that had remarkable careers?

Hey 70sfan good to see you in GB!

Also, Jokic is one of the top 15 remarkable players. He is getting grossly underrated. He's done enough and he's in there (honestly someone could move me to put him top 10).

Underrated? If anything he's overrated. His nut huggers are saying he's a better player than Jordan or LeBron. Dude won one ring in a weak season.

Having said that, taking his fans out of the picture, I can see him as top 20 all time. Maybe even top 15. If he can win a couple more rings, he can in the top 10.

[NZB2323]

I don't care what any player's counting stats are, unless you win at LEAST 2 championships, you do not belong in the top 20.

And this is coming from someone who believes Jokic has been the best player in the NBA the last 5 years.

I gotta see your top 20 given you can't have the following players in it.

West
Oscar
KG
Dirk
Chuck
Cp3
Moses
Nash
Giannis
Harden
Ewing
Pettit
Stockton
Miller
Kidd
Barry
Gilmore
AD

Here's the player comp board's list with these adjustments.

1. LeBron James
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Michael Jordan
4. Bill Russell
5. Tim Duncan
6. Hakeem Olajuwon
7. Wilt Chamberlain
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Magic Johnson
10. Steph Curry
11. Larry Bird
12. Kobe Bryant
13. George Mikan
14. David Robinson
15. Julius Erving (only 1 NBA but do we count ABA?)
16. Kevin Durant (do his warrior titles count?)
17. Dwyane Wade
18. Scottie Pippen
19. Kawhi Leonard
20. Walt Frazier

21. John Havlicek
22. Manu Ginobili

Very good argument and I think 18 is a crazy high ranking for Pippen. If Jokic was on the 94 Bulls instead of Pippen they probably win it all.

Steve Kerr
BJ Armstrong
Kukoc
Grant
Jokic

Bench:

Paxson
Myers
Luc Longley
Bill Cartwright

Imagine how many championships Jokic would have won if he got to play with Jordan/Grant or Jordan/Pippen.

My 13-21 is almost all guys with 1 championship: Jokic, Moses Malone, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, Dr. J, Giannis, KD, Dirk, and KG.

I guess KD has 2, but Jokic easily wins with Curry/Klay/Dray.

[dhsilv2]

Neither of these guys is "easily a top 10 players in NBA history". Jokic needs to improve his defense and probably win one or two more titles. Curry has an argument for top 10 because he has the rings and he did revolutionize the game with his playstyle. The problem is that of the 4 titles he won he was only once the FMVP. Kind of weird for a guy to be top 10 in NBA history but then 3 times out of 4 wasn't even the best player on his team in the finals.

Like I said, this is just made up criteria to keep modern players out of the discussion because old fans can't let go of their silly standards that makes no sense to anybody but them.

And unfortunately, old fans ruin the NBA fandom for the rest of that have moved on to modern players and don't talk about the lack of defense from a 3xMVP and NBA champion keeping him out of the Top 10.

Then wanna bring up a "rings Ernie" argument for Curry despite Curry contributing nothing defensively to his team.

So yeah, Jokic is the greatest offensive player to ever play at this point. He's easily a top 10 player in NBA history. Should've won 4 MVPs in a row but the media is stupid and Embiid is a crybaby.

I don't care about his defense, it's a team game. Players like Jokic, Magic and LeBron makes their teammates incredibly wealthy because the ball will find them in the best possible position to succeed.

Jokic is suffering from the same thing LeBron did. He's too good, too talented and he plays his position in a way that doesn't suit older fans because he doesn't contest every shot or fly around patrolling the paint. LeBron was the first perimeter star in a long time that didn't want to be a Jordan clone like Kobe. LeBron didn't get his flowers in the midst of his prime either despite obviously being the second best player ever by 2008-2009 and solidifying it by 2013-2014.


Lol old NBA fans top 10 are still players from the 70s 80s, 90s and 00 and we know for sure that players like Jokic and Curry are better most players in a top 10.

Jokic is not the greatest offensive player to ever play, that's a ridiculous claim. MJ won 10x scoring titles plus has averaged at least 30 ppg for 8 seasons. Meanwhile Jokic has zero scoring titles and has never managed to avarage 30 ppg over a season even in this era of inflated scoring.

You might not care about his defense but the reality is that a center should anchor the defense and provide rim protection. I can't imagine him trying to defend Wilt, KAJ, Hakeem or Shaq for example. Jokic is a great player but to be in the discussion for a top 10 all time you need to play a really good defense especially if you are a center.

Scoring titles are almost universally a negative through NBA history. Jordan is a massive outlier in this his scoring titles actually lead to great offense. Trying to argue against Jokic with scoring titles is down right insane. Even among Jordan's peers, there was never an agreement his passed Magic as the best offensive player of that era.

[Rustyman]

I don't care what any player's counting stats are, unless you win at LEAST 2 championships, you do not belong in the top 20.

And this is coming from someone who believes Jokic has been the best player in the NBA the last 5 years.

I gotta see your top 20 given you can't have the following players in it.

West
Oscar
KG
Dirk
Chuck
Cp3
Moses
Nash
Giannis
Harden
Ewing
Pettit
Stockton
Miller
Kidd
Barry
Gilmore
AD

Here's the player comp board's list with these adjustments.

1. LeBron James
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Michael Jordan
4. Bill Russell
5. Tim Duncan
6. Hakeem Olajuwon
7. Wilt Chamberlain
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Magic Johnson
10. Steph Curry
11. Larry Bird
12. Kobe Bryant
13. George Mikan
14. David Robinson
15. Julius Erving (only 1 NBA but do we count ABA?)
16. Kevin Durant (do his warrior titles count?)
17. Dwyane Wade
18. Scottie Pippen
19. Kawhi Leonard
20. Walt Frazier

21. John Havlicek
22. Manu Ginobili

Who of the players you list do you think should be in the top 20 and who of the multiple championship players should drop off. Also, I hope the the numbering is reflective of your ranking of those players.

[dhsilv2]

I don't care what any player's counting stats are, unless you win at LEAST 2 championships, you do not belong in the top 20.

And this is coming from someone who believes Jokic has been the best player in the NBA the last 5 years.

I gotta see your top 20 given you can't have the following players in it.

West
Oscar
KG
Dirk
Chuck
Cp3
Moses
Nash
Giannis
Harden
Ewing
Pettit
Stockton
Miller
Kidd
Barry
Gilmore
AD

Here's the player comp board's list with these adjustments.

1. LeBron James
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Michael Jordan
4. Bill Russell
5. Tim Duncan
6. Hakeem Olajuwon
7. Wilt Chamberlain
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Magic Johnson
10. Steph Curry
11. Larry Bird
12. Kobe Bryant
13. George Mikan
14. David Robinson
15. Julius Erving (only 1 NBA but do we count ABA?)
16. Kevin Durant (do his warrior titles count?)
17. Dwyane Wade
18. Scottie Pippen
19. Kawhi Leonard
20. Walt Frazier

21. John Havlicek
22. Manu Ginobili

Who of the players you list do you think should be in the top 20 and who of the multiple championship players should drop off. Also, I hope the the numbering is reflective of your ranking of those players.

The question is to you. I just used a list to give us a starting point because we all want YOUR list! So give us your top 20 with no guys wiht less than 2 titles. We are all ears!

[threethehardway]

Neither of these guys is "easily a top 10 players in NBA history". Jokic needs to improve his defense and probably win one or two more titles. Curry has an argument for top 10 because he has the rings and he did revolutionize the game with his playstyle. The problem is that of the 4 titles he won he was only once the FMVP. Kind of weird for a guy to be top 10 in NBA history but then 3 times out of 4 wasn't even the best player on his team in the finals.

Like I said, this is just made up criteria to keep modern players out of the discussion because old fans can't let go of their silly standards that makes no sense to anybody but them.

And unfortunately, old fans ruin the NBA fandom for the rest of that have moved on to modern players and don't talk about the lack of defense from a 3xMVP and NBA champion keeping him out of the Top 10.

Then wanna bring up a "rings Ernie" argument for Curry despite Curry contributing nothing defensively to his team.

So yeah, Jokic is the greatest offensive player to ever play at this point. He's easily a top 10 player in NBA history. Should've won 4 MVPs in a row but the media is stupid and Embiid is a crybaby.

I don't care about his defense, it's a team game. Players like Jokic, Magic and LeBron makes their teammates incredibly wealthy because the ball will find them in the best possible position to succeed.

Jokic is suffering from the same thing LeBron did. He's too good, too talented and he plays his position in a way that doesn't suit older fans because he doesn't contest every shot or fly around patrolling the paint. LeBron was the first perimeter star in a long time that didn't want to be a Jordan clone like Kobe. LeBron didn't get his flowers in the midst of his prime either despite obviously being the second best player ever by 2008-2009 and solidifying it by 2013-2014.


Lol old NBA fans top 10 are still players from the 70s 80s, 90s and 00 and we know for sure that players like Jokic and Curry are better most players in a top 10.

Jokic is not the greatest offensive player to ever play, that's a ridiculous claim. MJ won 10x scoring titles plus has averaged at least 30 ppg for 8 seasons. Meanwhile Jokic has zero scoring titles and has never managed to avarage 30 ppg over a season even in this era of inflated scoring.

You might not care about his defense but the reality is that a center should anchor the defense and provide rim protection. I can't imagine him trying to defend Wilt, KAJ, Hakeem or Shaq for example. Jokic is a great player but to be in the discussion for a top 10 all time you need to play a really good defense especially if you are a center.

Scoring is only one component of offense. Scoring titles does not make a player a better offensive player than the other.


And who said a center should anchor a defense?

Like I said before, this is old way of thinking and bias against an obvious GOAT Offensive Player.

Saying a center should anchor a defense is the same as saying point guards should set up an offense or a shooting guard should be able to shoot threes.

[Rubios]

-Sigh-
For the 734856748th time. Who doesn't put Jokic among the top 15 BEST players ever?

You are confusing best (no one is debating this) and greatest (I am a huge Jokic fan and he sits exactly at 15, can't put him above that and I understand many people have him a bit lower).

[DimesandKnicks]

nah, defense is where eye tests get just destroyed. Jokic does a lot of things that look bad. He gets guys going at him vs moving away. he doesn't alter shots at the rim and he can be put in really bad positions when he's defending in space or switching. That looks really bad.

But Jokic does so much that helps make up for that and it's really hard to take these REALLY good moments and then a lot of "kinda bad" moments and not leave thinking, well I saw more good than bad. But if the bad isn't really that impactful over the course of a game, it's not causing the negative results one might think.

Opp point in the paint: 215 out of 219 qualifying players and last across the C position
Opp fast break points: Jokic — the huste back on defense guy — ranked 212 out of 219 players
Opp FG Made: Jokic was 160 out of 211, one spot ahead of Jamaal Murray
Opp FG percentage: 109 out of 209, a few spots ahead of KAT
Deflections: 5th
FGM Defending PNR: 11th worst
DFG Percentage: 97th out of 128
DFGM: 3rd
DFGA: 3rd
Fouls committed: 15th
OPP PTS OFF TOV: 209th
DREB %: 17th
Kick Balls: None
DFGM at the rim: Second worst
DFGA at the rim: Same as above
DFG% at the rim: 26th out of 51 players who defended at least three shots at the rim
DREB: 1st
STLS: 1st
FGM while defending PNR Ball handler: 117th worst out of 128
FGA while defending PNR Ball Handler: 110-out of 128
FG% while defending PNR Ball Handler: 51 percent
Percentile while defending PNR Ball Handler: 40 percent aka worse than 60 percent
And one Freq% (How often a player is fouling while giving up baskets: 88th out of 128th
FGM defending Roll man: 4th most
FGA defending Roll Man: 5th most
FG % off Roll man: Sixteenth out of 20 qualified players (58 percent)
Score frequency for the above: 53.8 percent fourth worst
Percentile for the above: 15.8 percent, aka about 85 percent of qualified players performed better than he did
Contested Shots (Despite being third in the league in DFGA): 27th at 6.6 (There are 20.4 DFGA where Jokic is the closet player to the offensive player— yet he’s only contesting 6.6 shots) This means he’s only contesting a third of shots that he could be. For more context, Zubac, who was first in DFGA contested 12.6 shots.

but yes, "eye test"

Considering the load he has to Carry, he's doing just fine, the fact is he won a chip, despite everything.

He's doing great. He's still a bad defender

[Packbuckman]

Like I said, this is just made up criteria to keep modern players out of the discussion because old fans can't let go of their silly standards that makes no sense to anybody but them.

And unfortunately, old fans ruin the NBA fandom for the rest of that have moved on to modern players and don't talk about the lack of defense from a 3xMVP and NBA champion keeping him out of the Top 10.

Then wanna bring up a "rings Ernie" argument for Curry despite Curry contributing nothing defensively to his team.

So yeah, Jokic is the greatest offensive player to ever play at this point. He's easily a top 10 player in NBA history. Should've won 4 MVPs in a row but the media is stupid and Embiid is a crybaby.

I don't care about his defense, it's a team game. Players like Jokic, Magic and LeBron makes their teammates incredibly wealthy because the ball will find them in the best possible position to succeed.

Jokic is suffering from the same thing LeBron did. He's too good, too talented and he plays his position in a way that doesn't suit older fans because he doesn't contest every shot or fly around patrolling the paint. LeBron was the first perimeter star in a long time that didn't want to be a Jordan clone like Kobe. LeBron didn't get his flowers in the midst of his prime either despite obviously being the second best player ever by 2008-2009 and solidifying it by 2013-2014.


Lol old NBA fans top 10 are still players from the 70s 80s, 90s and 00 and we know for sure that players like Jokic and Curry are better most players in a top 10.

Jokic is not the greatest offensive player to ever play, that's a ridiculous claim. MJ won 10x scoring titles plus has averaged at least 30 ppg for 8 seasons. Meanwhile Jokic has zero scoring titles and has never managed to avarage 30 ppg over a season even in this era of inflated scoring.

You might not care about his defense but the reality is that a center should anchor the defense and provide rim protection. I can't imagine him trying to defend Wilt, KAJ, Hakeem or Shaq for example. Jokic is a great player but to be in the discussion for a top 10 all time you need to play a really good defense especially if you are a center.

Scoring is only one component of offense. Scoring titles does not make a player a better offensive player than the other.


And who said a center should anchor a defense?

Like I said before, this is old way of thinking and bias against an obvious GOAT Offensive Player.

Saying a center should anchor a defense is the same as saying point guards should set up an offense or a shooting guard should be able to shoot threes.

Everyone that has any basketball knowledge has the center anchoring the defense because he is the biggest dam player on your team! You can try and get away with your pf doing that job but usually it doesn’t work if other team has a dominant center they are just not big enough. Jokic is lucky there are no big athletic centers to match up with. So no I don’t have him over guys he can’t ever guard **** Ewing would have a field day against jokic let alone Wilt Kareem shaq dream Robinson Morning **** he had a hard time with an old ass Lopez.

[threethehardway]

Everyone that has any basketball knowledge has the center anchoring the defense because he is the biggest dam player on your team! You can try and get away with your pf doing that job but usually it doesn’t work if other team has a dominant center they are just not big enough. Jokic is lucky there are no big athletic centers to match up with. So no I don’t have him over guys he can’t ever guard **** Ewing would have a field day against jokic let alone Wilt Kareem shaq dream Robinson Morning **** he had a hard time with an old ass Lopez.

So...LeBron anchored the Miami Heat defense.

Draymond Green anchored the Golden State Warriors defense.

Hoarce Grant and Scottie Pippen anchored the defense of the Bulls first 3 peat

Kevin Garnett anchored the Boston Celtics defense.

It's 2025, you can play a rim roaming big man with a more offensive big man.

It's not different than having a Luka or Magic Johnson being a "point guard" while playing next to a big guard that guards the point guard.

The center doesn't have to anchor a defense.

No different than your point guard having to be the best ball handler because they are the supposed to be the smallest player on the court.

Y'all just don't have any imagination.

And no, Jokic is actually a good post defender. His issue is with guarding perimeter attacks fat the rim because he isn't vertical.

He'll do fine guarding post playing big men.

Jokic in the 70s, 80s and 90s without the spread, pick and roll and mismatch hunting offenses would have zero problems on defense.

Most of the GOAT centers in today's league would be defensive liabilities today, so let's not go there.