Are people lower on Cooper Flagg?

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Re: Are people lower on Cooper Flagg? 

Post#161 » by Ice Man » Today 1:24 pm

bonita_the_frog wrote:[f those end up being his rookie numbers, he'll have better rookie numbers than rookie LeBron.


The LeBron comparison, as we all know, is perilous, because LeBron had both physical gifts and unicorn vision that Cooper lacks. But I do think that's it's quite reasonable to look at the scoring progression of guys who are roughly Cooper's size, also highly athletic but not at LBJ's level, and who also have a wide variety of abilities -- handle, passing, paint scoring, outside shooting, BBIQ.

Avdija comes to mind, as does Tatum and (albeit taller) Markkanen. All those guys are now scoring 27+ points per 36 minutes while in their prime, but none of them scored more than 16 points per 36 when they were rookies. It takes a while for these big wings to figure out how to use the many tools that they have at their disposal against NBA competition. Doesn't happen immediately.
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Re: Are people lower on Cooper Flagg? 

Post#162 » by dirkdiggler4177 » Today 1:54 pm

Ice Man wrote:
bonita_the_frog wrote:[f those end up being his rookie numbers, he'll have better rookie numbers than rookie LeBron.


The LeBron comparison, as we all know, is perilous, because LeBron had both physical gifts and unicorn vision that Cooper lacks. But I do think that's it's quite reasonable to look at the scoring progression of guys who are roughly Cooper's size, also highly athletic but not at LBJ's level, and who also have a wide variety of abilities -- handle, passing, paint scoring, outside shooting, BBIQ.

Avdija comes to mind, as does Tatum and (albeit taller) Markkanen. All those guys are now scoring 27+ points per 36 minutes while in their prime, but none of them scored more than 16 points per 36 when they were rookies. It takes a while for these big wings to figure out how to use the many tools that they have at their disposal against NBA competition. Doesn't happen immediately.


I don't think he plays anything like those guys and is much closer to Julius Randle. Where he has had the most success is face-forwarding and attacking the paint + transition baskets. Tatum and Markkanen's biggest strength coming in was their shooting. It is Cooper's biggest weakness at the moment.

Cooper is a slasher, and those guys are shooters imo.
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Re: Are people lower on Cooper Flagg? 

Post#163 » by SA37 » Today 2:19 pm

bonita_the_frog wrote:
dirkdiggler4177 wrote:In the last 5 games, he has averaged:
18 points on 51% shooting, 7rpg, 4.2apg, 1.8spg and 2.6 to

If those end up being his rookie numbers, he'll have better rookie numbers than rookie LeBron.
And before anyone says, I know its a different era...

But rookie LeBron averaged 20.9 points, .417 field, .290 threes, 5.5 rebounds, 5.9 assists, 3.5 turnovers
Cooper Flagg currently 15.6 points, .447 field, .273 threes, 6.7 rebounds, 3.2 assists, 2.3 turnovers

If I had to guess, Flagg's rookie scoring will finish close to 20ppg, and his 3pt% should get close to 30%, and assists keep going up.


I don't think anyone is down on Flagg or rethinking the expectation he'll be a perennial all-star, at minimum.

My impression is Flagg's performances has been largely unremarkable, but that's got more to do with the hype and expectations than him playing poorly. I expected him to come out of the gates a bit stronger given his experience playing with NBA guys, but he's also become the focal point on a team that is not only missing K Irving, but also A Davis.

My guess is he'll have a sped-up Tatum-like trajectory, and that's the player I think he is most comparable to. (Tatum is WILDLY underrated on these boards.)

In any case, I don't see Flagg running away with the ROY award, and he's possibly not the favorite to win it given the early returns from VJ Edgecombe, Kon Knueppel, and Cedric Coward. Derik Queen may even sneak into this convo (averaging 13-7r-5a on 51 FG% in ~27mpg in his last 7) if he gets closer to 30mpg.
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Re: Are people lower on Cooper Flagg? 

Post#164 » by Ice Man » Today 3:08 pm

dirkdiggler4177 wrote:I don't think he plays anything like those guys and is much closer to Julius Randle. Where he has had the most success is face-forwarding and attacking the paint + transition baskets. Tatum and Markkanen's biggest strength coming in was their shooting. It is Cooper's biggest weakness at the moment.


Tatum shot 34% for 3s as a college frosh, Deni was 32% as an NBA rookie (and also 32% in his Israeli professional career), Flagg was 38% as a college frosh. Shrug.

Now Lauri I will give you, in his early years he was a clearly better 3 point shooter than Flagg is. Laurie was also clearly worse at scoring in the paint, which is why they are scoring at a similar rate as rookies. Same destination, different path. But I think their offensive games will converge. Lauri figured out how to score inside and Cooper will figure out how to make 3s in the NBA, as Tatum and Deni did.
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Re: Are people lower on Cooper Flagg? 

Post#165 » by bonita_the_frog » Today 3:25 pm

SA37 wrote:I don't think anyone is down on Flagg or rethinking the expectation he'll be a perennial all-star, at minimum.

My impression is Flagg's performances has been largely unremarkable, but that's got more to do with the hype and expectations than him playing poorly. I expected him to come out of the gates a bit stronger given his experience playing with NBA guys, but he's also become the focal point on a team that is not only missing K Irving, but also A Davis.

My guess is he'll have a sped-up Tatum-like trajectory, and that's the player I think he is most comparable to. (Tatum is WILDLY underrated on these boards.)

In any case, I don't see Flagg running away with the ROY award, and he's possibly not the favorite to win it given the early returns from VJ Edgecombe, Kon Knueppel, and Cedric Coward. Derik Queen may even sneak into this convo (averaging 13-7r-5a on 51 FG% in ~27mpg in his last 7) if he gets closer to 30mpg.

VJ Edgecombe in November = 11.6 points, 5.7 rebounds, 3.3 assists, .330 field, 7 games
Cooper Flagg in November = 16.8 points, 7.0 rebounds, 3.4 assists, .465 field, 9 games
The great thing about Flagg is, he just keeps getting better, so there is no limit in sight...
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Re: Are people lower on Cooper Flagg? 

Post#166 » by FrodoBaggins » Today 4:01 pm

Cooper has some physical advantages over LeBron.

He's got a notably longer stride, more akin to Brandon Ingram or Scottie Pippen. He is also a quicker, more functional leaper off two feet, from one or multiple steps, or from a standstill. This is a common trait among great shot blockers, rebounders, & post players. Compares favorably to Stéphane Lasme, Josh Smith, Shawn Marion, and Charles Barkley.

I also think Cooper has better agility and flexibility. He changes pace and direction better, and can move backwards, slide laterally, and rotate more smoothly/fluidly. He really looks like (young) Anthony Davis on defense at times, albeit a wing-sized version.

LeBron's extra 20 pounds, crazy speed, and explosive power are his major physical advantages. Probably the best one-foot jumper ever. He was never known for having an elite first step, but the ones that followed were:


“My first step ain’t never been that great. It’s my second step, that’s where I’ll get you.”


James has more strength, balance, and ultimately the ability to absorb contact because of the extra weight. However, Cooper is trucking full-bodied pros at 18, and he's clearly got a big frame to grow into. 225 vs. 240 as rookies. I could see Cooper reaching 240-250 in his prime. So, it's kind of like LeBron vs. Josh Smith size-wise. Always going to be a roughly 20-pound difference.

Josh Smith, with less speed & power (35.5" max vert vs. 39.5") but more fluidity, flexibility, agility, strength, and balance, is not a bad physical comparison for Cooper. King Ken in the NBA Draft sub-forum made this comp.



Regarding the vision/passing, I actually think Cooper is better than LeBron at throwing lobs. He's really good at them. Maybe interior passes too, but I'm less sure of that. Here's what top NBA Draft analyst Sam Vecenie wrote about Cooper's passing/vision/decision-making:


● All of this leads to what might be Flagg’s best offensive skill, though: his passing ability. A very unselfish player. Makes quick decisions. Doesn’t overdribble before finding his teammates. If someone is open, he’s going to hit them. Excellent at getting downhill and making live-dribble passes to create shots for his teammates. Does an amazing job of creating angles with jumps. Awesome at keeping his eyes up even as he goes up for a shot, looking for an easier opportunity for a teammate. Finds the cross-corner kickouts after the tagger sits on the roller. Finds the baseline reads to the corner. Excellent at finding cutters and dump-offs into the dunker spot.

● Even showed some extremely high-level short-roll kickout reads as the screener in ball-screen situations. Can put velocity on the ball, or just throw a well-timed lob with touch. Can throw nearly any pass he has to from any angle. Will be an awesome passer and playmaker for his teammates in the NBA when the passing windows get even wider. Averaged 4.2 assists per game this year versus only 2.1 turnovers.


It's hard to get a read on Cooper's passing/playmaking potential and make a comparison to LeBron when he hasn't had as primary a role yet. He feels more like a Jimmy Butler type; a safe, always-makes-the-right-passes type, and not a pass-you-open risk taker like LeBron is.
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Re: Are people lower on Cooper Flagg? 

Post#167 » by Mirotic12 » Today 4:09 pm

If we are arguing in any way at all that Flagg can be compared in a similar way to LeBron athletically, then Flagg is insanely overrated here.

If he was from Europe, people would say he's a white stiff with zero athleticism.
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Re: Are people lower on Cooper Flagg? 

Post#168 » by bonita_the_frog » Today 4:23 pm

Mirotic12 wrote:If we are arguing in any way at all that Flagg can be compared in a similar way to LeBron athletically, then Flagg is insanely overrated here.

If he was from Europe, people would say he's a white stiff with zero athleticism.

LeBron is not exactly Air Jordan himself.
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Re: Are people lower on Cooper Flagg? 

Post#169 » by Mirotic12 » Today 4:32 pm

bonita_the_frog wrote:
Mirotic12 wrote:If we are arguing in any way at all that Flagg can be compared in a similar way to LeBron athletically, then Flagg is insanely overrated here.

If he was from Europe, people would say he's a white stiff with zero athleticism.

LeBron is not exactly Air Jordan himself.


He's not and never was. But he was, back in the day, clearly much more athletic than Flagg is now.

Flagg has a great motor, he's very mobile, and he has quick feet on defense. So that's certainly all nice.

But he has no explosiveness or burst at all.
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Re: Are people lower on Cooper Flagg? 

Post#170 » by FrodoBaggins » Today 4:56 pm

With how people typically categorize and value athleticism? Yeah, LeBron's more athletic on the whole.

But that doesn't mean there aren't aspects of athleticism where LeBron's lacking and Cooper's better, such as two-footed jumping. Or moving backwards/backpedaling, sliding laterally, and rotating.

I'd argue Cooper has better defensive athleticism. That is to say, better in the aspects of athleticism related to playing defense, which is largely reactive and done moving backwards or sideways. It's a large reason why he was known for his shotblocking, rim protection, and overall defense as a prospect, and LeBron wasn't. Defense didn't come as naturally to James; he had to work at it for several years in the pros.

And I disagree that Cooper has no explosiveness or "burst," whatever that means. I've always heard it used in basketball circles, like "vertical pop." I don't know why you can't just say acceleration or speed, with or without the ball. Anyway, how do you think Cooper got all those blocks and dunks? His speed and power are more than good for a 6'9" forward based on what I've seen so far.
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Re: Are people lower on Cooper Flagg? 

Post#171 » by tsherkin » Today 4:59 pm

FrodoBaggins wrote:And I disagree that Cooper has no explosiveness or "burst," whatever that means. I've always heard it used in basketball circles, like "vertical pop." I don't know why you can't just say acceleration or speed, with or without the ball. Anyway, how do you think Cooper got all those blocks and dunks? His speed and power are more than good for a 6'9" forward based on what I've seen so far.


Yeah, his quickness looks fine to me. Like, he surely isn't a prime Lebron, but LBJ was a freak in that regard. Laterally, Flagg seems fine. His spin move is quick. He jumps pretty quickly and he's got great coordination. Lots of tools. Not what I might call the greatest athletic specimen of the past quarter century, sure, but like, certainly not an "unathletic stiff" to any sensible examination.
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Re: Are people lower on Cooper Flagg? 

Post#172 » by Mephariel » Today 5:04 pm

FrodoBaggins wrote:With how people typically categorize and value athleticism? Yeah, LeBron's more athletic on the whole.

But that doesn't mean there aren't aspects of athleticism where LeBron's lacking and Cooper's better, such as two-footed jumping. Or moving backwards/backpedaling, sliding laterally, and rotating.

I'd argue Cooper has better defensive athleticism. That is to say, better in the aspects of athleticism related to playing defense, which is largely reactive and done moving backwards or sideways. It's a large reason why he was known for his shotblocking, rim protection, and overall defense as a prospect, and LeBron wasn't.

And I disagree that Cooper has no explosiveness or "burst," whatever that means. I've always heard it used in basketball circles, like "vertical pop." I don't know why you can't just say acceleration or speed, with or without the ball. Anyway, how do you think Cooper got all those blocks and dunks? His speed and power are more than good for a 6'9" forward based on what I've seen so far.


Defensive athleticism? Lebron was an 5x defensive first team player and certainly can move well laterally in his prime.

Cooper Flagg is clearly a good athlete, even a great one. But he is no Lebron or Jordan. I never get the Lebron comparison. Lebron was a downhill, explosive freak of nature. Hell even last year, he had more dunk highlights than most players in their prime.
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Re: Are people lower on Cooper Flagg? 

Post#173 » by Mephariel » Today 5:07 pm

tsherkin wrote:
FrodoBaggins wrote:And I disagree that Cooper has no explosiveness or "burst," whatever that means. I've always heard it used in basketball circles, like "vertical pop." I don't know why you can't just say acceleration or speed, with or without the ball. Anyway, how do you think Cooper got all those blocks and dunks? His speed and power are more than good for a 6'9" forward based on what I've seen so far.


Yeah, his quickness looks fine to me. Like, he surely isn't a prime Lebron, but LBJ was a freak in that regard. Laterally, Flagg seems fine. His spin move is quick. He jumps pretty quickly and he's got great coordination. Lots of tools. Not what I might call the greatest athletic specimen of the past quarter century, sure, but like, certainly not an "unathletic stiff" to any sensible examination.


Flagg is athletic period. He gets to where he wants to go pretty easily. He doesn't have explosive, sheer driving power or high end speed, but nobody would seriously call him "stiff."
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Re: Are people lower on Cooper Flagg? 

Post#174 » by FrodoBaggins » Today 5:17 pm

Mephariel wrote:
FrodoBaggins wrote:With how people typically categorize and value athleticism? Yeah, LeBron's more athletic on the whole.

But that doesn't mean there aren't aspects of athleticism where LeBron's lacking and Cooper's better, such as two-footed jumping. Or moving backwards/backpedaling, sliding laterally, and rotating.

I'd argue Cooper has better defensive athleticism. That is to say, better in the aspects of athleticism related to playing defense, which is largely reactive and done moving backwards or sideways. It's a large reason why he was known for his shotblocking, rim protection, and overall defense as a prospect, and LeBron wasn't.

And I disagree that Cooper has no explosiveness or "burst," whatever that means. I've always heard it used in basketball circles, like "vertical pop." I don't know why you can't just say acceleration or speed, with or without the ball. Anyway, how do you think Cooper got all those blocks and dunks? His speed and power are more than good for a 6'9" forward based on what I've seen so far.


Defensive athleticism? Lebron was an 5x defensive first team player and certainly can move well laterally in his prime.

Cooper Flagg is clearly a good athlete, even a great one. But he is no Lebron or Jordan. I never get the Lebron comparison. Lebron was a downhill, explosive freak of nature. Hell even last year, he had more dunk highlights than most players in their prime.

LeBron became a great defender over time. Some of that was effort, some of that was IQ, awareness, and decision-making from repetition and experience. He wasn't as precocious a defensive talent as Cooper was. And I think those athletic traits I described played a part in that.

This isn't to say LeBron's defensive athleticism isn't good. It's great. His size, strength, and explosiveness provided him with superb versatility.

I just don't think he has as much as Cooper does. Specificities and nuances matter. A guy might be explosive and coordinated going forward in a straight line, but suck going backwards or sideways, especially with his arms up playing defense at the same time. Some guys are great one-foot leapers with a runway, but can't go off two feet very well. Flagg is pretty flawless as a defender, both physically and cognitively. He's borderline elite already and has a higher defensive ceiling than LBJ, IMO.

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Re: Are people lower on Cooper Flagg? 

Post#175 » by dirkdiggler4177 » Today 5:28 pm

Ice Man wrote:
dirkdiggler4177 wrote:I don't think he plays anything like those guys and is much closer to Julius Randle. Where he has had the most success is face-forwarding and attacking the paint + transition baskets. Tatum and Markkanen's biggest strength coming in was their shooting. It is Cooper's biggest weakness at the moment.


Tatum shot 34% for 3s as a college frosh, Deni was 32% as an NBA rookie (and also 32% in his Israeli professional career), Flagg was 38% as a college frosh. Shrug.

Now Lauri I will give you, in his early years he was a clearly better 3 point shooter than Flagg is. Laurie was also clearly worse at scoring in the paint, which is why they are scoring at a similar rate as rookies. Same destination, different path. But I think their offensive games will converge. Lauri figured out how to score inside and Cooper will figure out how to make 3s in the NBA, as Tatum and Deni did.


That is just focus on shooting.. Tatum shot 43% on 3 attempts in his rookie season. That is pretty damn good for a rookie.
I never watched Deni as a rookie or much later on, but there is nothing in his style that screams Cooper to me, except that he is white.

I just don't see the comparisons here. It just seems like you picked some random guys :lol:
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Re: Are people lower on Cooper Flagg? 

Post#176 » by Ice Man » Today 5:45 pm

Coop's elite athletic attribute is agility. I checked the data over the past 10 years, and his lane agility time at the 2025 combine was faster than that of any other future NBA big. Faster than those of VJ, Harper, and Ace, too.
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Re: Are people lower on Cooper Flagg? 

Post#177 » by Duke4life831 » Today 5:47 pm

Ice Man wrote:Last night was Flagg's best game yet, 21/8/5 with 0 TOs.

The first half was the same as the rest of the season, standing in the weak-side corner in the PJ Tucker role. I can't overstate the stupidity of this tactic. It eliminates all of Cooper's strengths -- beating his defender off the dribble, bullying opponents in the paint, passing vision, and crashing the glass for offensive rebounds -- and plays to his key weakness, which is that he's subpar at catch-and-shoot 3 pointers. (Actually, so far in his NBA career, subpar at all 3 point shots.)

Cooper had 2 points at halftime.

The second half Kidd finally became an NBA coach, at least temporarily, and moved Cooper to being the roller in the pick & roll. Now, Cooper doesn't actually know how to roll and it's not as if a Dallas guard could find him if he did, so the roll part didn't happen. But at least Cooper would receive return passes in the middle of the court, so that he could do ... something. As it turned out, he did a lot.


Ya and to be fair, I think Flagg has been flat out horrible at adjusting to a lower volume role. Like he just accepts it and poof you forget he's on the court. Now if Flagg becomes an All NBA caliber player like he's hyped up to be, this really doesnt matter, because a player that good never really has to worry about being aggressive enough haha.

But ya with that said, last night was the perfect snapshot of Coop's year so far. If the first half is the first time you watch him, youd think to yourself, "is he sick or something, I forgot he's even out there." He gets iced out of that offense so quickly and so easily. Again part of that is on the roster itself, just look at that team and you wont find a single player youd consider an average facilitator haha, the other part is Flagg is too willing to just stand in a corner for basically a full half of a game.

But if you watch him in the 2nd half and OT last night, youd have the polar opposite thought. The 2nd half he looks like that freak prospect that people have been talking about since he was 15-16. He scores in a variety of ways with 3pt, mid range pull up, driving and attacking (with either hand), fast break, low post hook, and he finishes the game with 8 boards, 5 assists, and 3 stocks.

Honestly Kidd's biggest coaching job for the rest of the year should basically just be focused on, preventing those halves or quarters where Flagg gets iced out of the offense. If he sees that happen for like 3 straight possessions, he needs to yell out a set that gets Flagg involved. Because when he's involved, he looks like a 6'8 two way versatile point forward already at the age of 18.
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Re: Are people lower on Cooper Flagg? 

Post#178 » by Ice Man » Today 6:19 pm

The bottom line is that Flagg should never be standing half a game in the corner. If Flagg not following the plan, then the coach should bench him. If this *is* the plan, then Dallas needs a new coach.
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Re: Are people lower on Cooper Flagg? 

Post#179 » by tamaraw08 » Today 6:25 pm

Ice Man wrote:
bonita_the_frog wrote:[f those end up being his rookie numbers, he'll have better rookie numbers than rookie LeBron.


The LeBron comparison, as we all know, is perilous, because LeBron had both physical gifts and unicorn vision that Cooper lacks. But I do think that's it's quite reasonable to look at the scoring progression of guys who are roughly Cooper's size, also highly athletic but not at LBJ's level, and who also have a wide variety of abilities -- handle, passing, paint scoring, outside shooting, BBIQ.

Avdija comes to mind, as does Tatum and (albeit taller) Markkanen. All those guys are now scoring 27+ points per 36 minutes while in their prime, but none of them scored more than 16 points per 36 when they were rookies. It takes a while for these big wings to figure out how to use the many tools that they have at their disposal against NBA competition. Doesn't happen immediately.


I remember savoring the time when Lebron was struggling with his perimeter shooting back then because I know that it's just a matter of time that the guy would work on this weaknesses and would start to dominate the league.
I see Cooper really blossoming at the start of next season.
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Re: Are people lower on Cooper Flagg? 

Post#180 » by tsherkin » Today 6:47 pm

Mephariel wrote:
tsherkin wrote:
FrodoBaggins wrote:And I disagree that Cooper has no explosiveness or "burst," whatever that means. I've always heard it used in basketball circles, like "vertical pop." I don't know why you can't just say acceleration or speed, with or without the ball. Anyway, how do you think Cooper got all those blocks and dunks? His speed and power are more than good for a 6'9" forward based on what I've seen so far.


Yeah, his quickness looks fine to me. Like, he surely isn't a prime Lebron, but LBJ was a freak in that regard. Laterally, Flagg seems fine. His spin move is quick. He jumps pretty quickly and he's got great coordination. Lots of tools. Not what I might call the greatest athletic specimen of the past quarter century, sure, but like, certainly not an "unathletic stiff" to any sensible examination.


Flagg is athletic period. He gets to where he wants to go pretty easily. He doesn't have explosive, sheer driving power or high end speed, but nobody would seriously call him "stiff."


Agreed. He looks perfectly fine to me.

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