Laker's supporting cast - over rated ?

[shawngoat23]

I think that most of the championship Bulls led by Jordan had slightly better supporting casts than the current Lakers do. But the Lakers have a greater talent advantage relative to the rest of the league than the Bulls did to the league in their days.

[eatyourchildren]

Talent alone won't win you rings. You need cohesion and execution as well, things J23F keeps glossing over and he continues to pimp his MJ agenda.

[Showtime:Part2]

Pippen and Grant >> Gasol and Odom.
Armstrong, Paxson, Hodges >> Fisher, Farmar, Brown, Vujacic
King, Williams, Cartwright, Purdue < Bynum, Luke, Powell, and Ariza if Bynum can stay healthy and get back to his old self.

Uhh, no.

Gasol/Odom = Pippen/Grant (Pippen's better than Gasol, Odom's better than Grant, who couldn't do anything on offense individually except spot up)

And even if the Pip/Grant combo have a slight edge on Gasol/Odom, Bynum and Ariza alone are worth more than the rest of the Bulls' roster combined. Bynum/Ariza/Vujacic/Farmar/Brown/Powell > Paxson/King/Hanson/Williams/Hodges, and anyone who isn't an unabashed Lakers homer will tell you so. Bynum and Ariza alone are worth more than any 3 (possibly 4) of those guys combined.

too bad both bynum and ariza were injured last year. and LAST YEAR'S odom/gasol are definitely a step below pippen/grant. both have improved so much in this one year that this year odom/gasol are >= pippen/grant. the point being raised was that the only team to win with a worse supporting cast than kobe's lakers last yr was duncan's spurs.

and btw, if you want to talk about this year, look at bynum's numbers in the playoffs so far. definitely worth 3/4 of the bulls role players.

[Tesla]

Talent alone won't win you rings. You need cohesion and execution as well.

Yeah this goes unnoticed the most when comparing supporting casts, or teams in general.

[Baller 24]

yeah,,,and jordan never had a young squad, ever nor did he a ever see the swarming defenses of the 04 pistons or the 08 celtics...

hell he never had to face a defense like any of the championship spurs teams...

yr point?

The delusional thoughts swarming throughout this thread are simply unheard of. The '04 Pistons are now one of the most historic defenses in league history? You're right in saying the '08 Celtics are, but the '04 Pistons? No @ that statement. Anyways, Jordan constantly had to go through the '90s Knicks anchored by Ewing, which are considered one of the top 5 defenses EVER in league history, nice try though, keep saying Kobe > Jordan, it might come true in your dreams

[Showtime:Part2]

the 04 pistons were just as good on D as the 08 celtics, if not better.

[Baller 24]

the 04 pistons were just as good on D as the 08 celtics, if not better.

Oh really? is that why Shaq did the following?

Code: Select all

 
FG   REB    PTS
.813   11   34
.500   7   29
.500   8   14
.762   20   36
.538   8   20

I don't even have to stop there, I can bring up '06 Shaq two years later simply dismantling that Pistons defensively overrated front-court of Ben Wallace and Rasheed Wallace.

'06 ECF, two-years later, when D-Wade was leading the team:

Code: Select all

 
FG   REB   PTS
.500   8   14
.563   12   21
.733   12   27
.667   9   21
.600   6   19
.857   16   28

[Showtime:Part2]

that's because he's freaking shaq. that's what he does to everyone. he even put up great numbers as a young'un vs. a prime hakeem. a prime shaq? who can actually stop that?

[Kobay]

Lakers looked godly the first 7games of the season, what happened?

[Sofa King]

Lakers looked godly the first 7games of the season, what happened?

The teams earlier on were still in preseason mode.

[Jordan23Forever]

too bad both bynum and ariza were injured last year. and LAST YEAR'S odom/gasol are definitely a step below pippen/grant. both have improved so much in this one year that this year odom/gasol are >= pippen/grant. the point being raised was that the only team to win with a worse supporting cast than kobe's lakers last yr was duncan's spurs.

and btw, if you want to talk about this year, look at bynum's numbers in the playoffs so far. definitely worth 3/4 of the bulls role players.

Again, I'm talking about this year, you're talking about last year.

[Silver Bullet]

the 04 pistons were just as good on D as the 08 celtics, if not better.

Oh really? is that why Shaq did the following?

Code: Select all

 
FG   REB    PTS
.813   11   34
.500   7   29
.500   8   14
.762   20   36
.538   8   20

I don't even have to stop there, I can bring up '06 Shaq two years later simply dismantling that Pistons defensively overrated front-court of Ben Wallace and Rasheed Wallace.

'06 ECF, two-years later, when D-Wade was leading the team:

Code: Select all

 
FG   REB   PTS
.500   8   14
.563   12   21
.733   12   27
.667   9   21
.600   6   19
.857   16   28

So your evidence of a team not being good defensively is Prime Shaq ? Seriously ?

[Silver Bullet]

I'm not really sure what win shares are or where you get those numbers, but I'll just make a couple statements:

1) Lakers and Cavs each have great supporting casts tailored around their respective superstars
2) Cavs supporting cast is underrated; Lakers is rated about where they should be
3) Gasol is EXTREMELY underrated, Lakers are not #1 in the West without him
4) Lakers are not top 4 in the west without Kobe
5) Cavs would make the playoffs without Lebron with a first round exit
6) Lebron will be better than Kobe from here on out, which began this year
7) The Lakers with Lebron/ Wade instead of Kobe are NOT a 72 win team
8) Swap Kobe and Lebron and both teams would have a worse record. The most comparable player that could be swapped with Lebron to give the Cavs a similiar record would be Kevin Durant. The player that you would swap with Kobe for a similiar record is Wade.

One of the best posts I have read in all my years here, however I disagree with a few things.

4. Lakers don't qualify for the playoffs without Kobe, I don't see how they'd be better than all those 20 win Grizzlies teams Gasol led.

5. Cavs would be one of the worst teams in the league without Lebron, however replace him with a mid-level scorer. Joe Johnson maybe and you have a 7th to 8th seed.

6. I don't think Lebron is better just yet, but he'll surpass Kobe pretty soon. Why ? Well, when you see them go head to head, you don't get the feeling Lebron's better. Yes he's putting up better stats, he's more athletic, he's quicker - whereas Kobe is the wily veteran. Sorta like Tim Duncan vs Al Jefferson (Chris Bosh), Jefferson might be better in every way, but Duncan's still the better player for a little while longer. It doesn't show up in stats, and if you didn't watch them go head to head, you'd probably think Jefferson's the better player.

7. The Lakers with Lebron ? uh, that's a tough one. They have Odom who doesn't complement Lebron well at all and they run the triangle, which I'm not sure suits Lebron. That's not a knock on Lebron, I think he'd be unstoppable on a D'Antoni team. So the Lakers with Lebron, as presently constructed, I think still be tops in the west, but they'd be a team (not unlike Lakers with Kobe) tht'd be ripe for an upset.
On the other hand, Kobe on the Cavs, I think would also be the same as they are now. The perfect team for Kobe is one where he gets the chance to score as much as he wants, The other players don't need the ball to be effective, and can still play stiffling defense. Something like the 01 Sixers with slightly better defense, and a slightly better offense. And that is the Cavs as currently constructed.

[garrick]

I don`t know why anyone would choose the cavs roster over the lakers, Odom is the key though. with his versatility he can fill several positions and that`s why the Lakers have had a lot of success recently.

[EHL]

i wish you at least argued intelligently like j23forever. instead you state that leading in win shares determines who is a better player.

There's no point in replying to his posts, he has already wimped out on several debates in this thread and others. It's all he's good at.

[JellosJigglin]

the 04 pistons were just as good on D as the 08 celtics, if not better.

Oh really? is that why Shaq did the following?

Code: Select all

 
FG   REB    PTS
.813   11   34
.500   7   29
.500   8   14
.762   20   36
.538   8   20

I don't even have to stop there, I can bring up '06 Shaq two years later simply dismantling that Pistons defensively overrated front-court of Ben Wallace and Rasheed Wallace.

'06 ECF, two-years later, when D-Wade was leading the team:

Code: Select all

 
FG   REB   PTS
.500   8   14
.563   12   21
.733   12   27
.667   9   21
.600   6   19
.857   16   28

Kobe was the focus of Detroit's defense. And anyone who watched that series knows Shaq got outplayed and outworked by Ben Wallace. I don't care what the numbers say, Ben Wallace was the true Finals MVP that year. I was actually shocked that he DIDN'T win it. But then I realized it's just a worthless award that goes to the highest scorer of the series, not the true most valuable player.

[guy1]

I am not over reacting to one loss, I am over reacting to a team who gives up a 26 point lead in the Finals (and i think they blew huge leads twice), who absolutely did not show up for Game 6 of the finals, blows an 18 point lead in Game 2 this year, and would not have won if not for some lucky bounces.

And Kobe's 5-24 has nothing to do with it. I did not create this topic because of this one last game, I would've thought it would be apparent to anybody who saw last years NBA finals,that the lakers were thoroughly out-toughed.

When was the last time, a soft team won a title. I don't remember it ever happening.

And last year was last year. With Bynum and Ariza, Gasol having his best season, and this team having their experiences of last year, this team is different. Another thing, toughness also comes from a team's leader, so maybe something could be said about Kobe for that. I wouldn't say Kobe is soft, maybe he is just not tough enough. Almost every championship team that has been considered "tough" has had a ruthless leader that would've never let their team blow a 24-point lead or get blown out by 40 in the Finals.

[Alex_De_Large]

Kobe = overrated
Lakers supporting cast = underrated

[Nuzzo]

the 04 pistons were just as good on D as the 08 celtics, if not better.

Oh really? is that why Shaq did the following?

Code: Select all

 
FG   REB    PTS
.813   11   34
.500   7   29
.500   8   14
.762   20   36
.538   8   20

Maybe because Larry Brown let him score his 25 + points a game, but stop all other players and the offence shemes of Phil Jackson AND outrebound the LA Lakers. Watch the games, or you preffer reading stats?

[shobe_81]

And last year was last year. With Bynum and Ariza, Gasol having his best season, and this team having their experiences of last year, this team is different. Another thing, toughness also comes from a team's leader, so maybe something could be said about Kobe for that. I wouldn't say Kobe is soft, maybe he is just not tough enough. Almost every championship team that has been considered "tough" has had a ruthless leader that would've never let their team blow a 24-point lead or get blown out by 40 in the Finals.

Just because you as a single player are tough, doesn't mean your team is going to be tough. Let me help:

Farmar
Sasha
Luke
Odom
Gasol

Where do you see TOUGH in these players? The closest probably is Odom

compared to when you go up against

Rondo
Garnett
Perkins
Leon Powe