2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread

[RCM88x]

The triple double is the most overrated stat in all of sports.



Meanwhile, harden just got his 13th triple double.

This is a great post.

Also the stat padding thing needs to stop. I don't think people believe it anymore, it's been proven wrong, and sounds like you're really trying to reach to discredit a guy when it's used.

And before today Harden had a - plus/minus for January (not on/off, actual raw plus/minus).

It's kind of amazing, because as far as I could tell, Harden had the highest +/- and on/off in the league by a massive margin until a short bit after Beverly came back in mid November. His on/off was in the 18-22 pt range for quite a while.

Perhaps Beverly should be MVP.

[bondom34]

The triple double is the most overrated stat in all of sports.



Meanwhile, harden just got his 13th triple double.

This is a great post.

Also the stat padding thing needs to stop. I don't think people believe it anymore, it's been proven wrong, and sounds like you're really trying to reach to discredit a guy when it's used.

And before today Harden had a - plus/minus for January (not on/off, actual raw plus/minus).

It's kind of amazing, because as far as I could tell, Harden had the highest on/off in the league by a massive margin until a short bit after Beverly came back in mid November. It was in the 18-22 pt range for quite a while.

Perhaps Beverly should be MVP.

I posted that a few days back, but I mean raw plus/minus, not just on/off. His January splits are down some.

[RCM88x]

This is a great post.

Also the stat padding thing needs to stop. I don't think people believe it anymore, it's been proven wrong, and sounds like you're really trying to reach to discredit a guy when it's used.

And before today Harden had a - plus/minus for January (not on/off, actual raw plus/minus).

It's kind of amazing, because as far as I could tell, Harden had the highest on/off in the league by a massive margin until a short bit after Beverly came back in mid November. It was in the 18-22 pt range for quite a while.

Perhaps Beverly should be MVP.

I posted that a few days back, but I mean raw plus/minus, not just on/off. His January splits are down some.

Sorry, edited my post to include regular +/- right after you quoted it, but yes they are. Perhaps teams just figuring out the system a bit and Clint Capella being out for almost a month now.

[Shock Defeat]

The triple double is the most overrated stat in all of sports.

Seriously, how is this even a discussion? An MVP for Westbrook? For averaging 1.5 more uncontested, stat padded rebounds, while leading his team all the way the the 7th seed.

Meanwhile, harden just got his 13th triple double. The more triple doubles harden gets, the more it devalues Westbrooks triple doubles.

Yep, and Harden is gunning for triple doubles now too all because of this. Harden has been on a triple double tear in January and it has not made the Rockets any better than they were in December. That's why triple doubles are an overrated stat.

[bondom34]

The triple double is the most overrated stat in all of sports.

Seriously, how is this even a discussion? An MVP for Westbrook? For averaging 1.5 more uncontested, stat padded rebounds, while leading his team all the way the the 7th seed.

Meanwhile, harden just got his 13th triple double. The more triple doubles harden gets, the more it devalues Westbrooks triple doubles.

Yep, and Harden is gunning for triple doubles now too all because of this. Harden has been on a triple double tear in January and it has not made the Rockets any better than they were in December. That's why triple doubles are an overrated stat.

It hasn't made OKC worse.

[ken6199]

I think Harden is closer to Westbrook than KD ever was (even before joining GS), yet those two must be battling hard including stats watching over each other. When Westbrook says 'It don't mean **** if we lose' in front of the reporters I don't believe for a second - though that's the only correct answer on TV. Same goes for Harden.

Back in 14-15 season, Harden was leading the race of scoring title the whole season only for a 'timely' KD injury to happen where Westbrook had to carry the whole team and score mad. I think the race went down to the wire to the very last game. Harden needed to score 55 points or something to regain the lead and he didn't. With everything going on between Harden and Curry that season, who was more valuable than the other, best player on best team stuff, no Dwight stuff, one might think the extra scoring title could very well tip the scale for Harden's MVP case. So in some way, his best friend cost him an MVP.

Stats go a long way, they are as important as team winning. We know it, them both know it. Westbrook's triple double average doesn't mean a whole lot because Harden is right there with him with a few RPG short. However Westbrook improving his shooting efficiency will significantly elevated his MVP case, and that's one big glaring hole for Westbrook stats-wise right now.

[bondom34]

I think Harden is closer to Westbrook than KD ever was (even before joining GS), yet those two must be battling hard including stats watching over each other. When Westbrook says 'It don't mean **** if we lose' in front of the reporters I don't believe for a second - though that's the only correct answer on TV. Same goes for Harden.

Back in 14-15 season, Harden was leading the race of scoring title the whole season only for a 'timely' KD injury to happen where Westbrook had to carry the whole team and score mad. I think the race went down to the wire to the very last game. Harden needed to score 55 points or something to regain the lead and he didn't. With everything going on between Harden and Curry that season, who was more valuable than the other, best player on best team stuff, no Dwight stuff, one might think the extra scoring title could very well tip the scale for Harden's MVP case. So in some way, his best friend cost him an MVP.

Stats go a long way, they are as important as team winning. We know it, them both know it. Westbrook's triple double average doesn't mean a whole lot because Harden is right there with him with a few RPG short. However Westbrook improving his shooting efficiency will significantly elevated his MVP case, and that's one big glaring hole for Westbrook stats-wise right now.

I smiled when they had the post game hug and instagram post last month. Harden's a good dude, I respect the guy a ton, and ahving 2 friends do this is pretty cool. KD though...

[K_chile22]

Gordon and Anderson are 1st and 2nd in the league in wide open (defender 6+ feet away) 3 point attempts, at 164 and 162 respectively. Brook Lopez is 3rd at 135 attempts. Harden is very clearly making these guys better. Ariza is also fourth at 131 wide open attempts. Rockets' offensive talent is good on paper, but Harden elevates those guys to a new level, going from good to great is a lot harder than going from bad to good.

[bondom34]

And yet even saying that, Westbrook's teammates have a greater improvement in FG percentage off his passing than Harden. Who's now at a - net in January.

Also I have a strange feeling this wasn't the sentiment with Harden 2 years ago (when notably I said he should have been MVP) when he lifted a bad Houston offense to good, just as Westbrook is now.

[Bergmaniac]

Does anyone know if any MVP winner has averaged more than 5 turnovers per game like both Harden and Westbrook average now?

Nobody has averaged 5 turnovers or more in the whole history of the league. Harden and Westbrook are on pace to smash the record for most turnovers in a season.

[K_chile22]

And yet even saying that, Westbrook's teammates have a greater improvement in FG percentage off his passing than Harden. Who's now at a - net in January.

Also I have a strange feeling this wasn't the sentiment with Harden 2 years ago (when notably I said he should have been MVP) when he lifted a bad Houston offense to good, just as Westbrook is now.

No, I think that was very much Curry's MVP and there's a lot of revisionist history when most say Harden was 'robbed'. That team also won 56 games, not 48 or whatever the Thunder will win.

Also their FG% is so much higher because most of his assists are dump offs, he isn't as good at finding open shooters as Harden, which is fine, they just have different strengths and FG% is nicer to Russ because of it. Is there a significant difference in eFG% improvement?

[bondom34]

And yet even saying that, Westbrook's teammates have a greater improvement in FG percentage off his passing than Harden. Who's now at a - net in January.

Also I have a strange feeling this wasn't the sentiment with Harden 2 years ago (when notably I said he should have been MVP) when he lifted a bad Houston offense to good, just as Westbrook is now.

No, I think that was very much Curry's MVP and there's a lot of revisionist history when most say Harden was 'robbed'. That team also won 56 games, not 48 or whatever the Thunder will win.

Also their FG% is so much higher because most of his assists are dump offs, he isn't as good at finding open shooters as Harden, which is fine, they just have different strengths and FG% is nicer to Russ because of it. Is there a significant difference is eFG%?

Higher as in his teammates improve their FG percentage. Not just higher than Harden's.

http://nbamath.com/the-nbas-most-efficient-passers/

[K_chile22]

And yet even saying that, Westbrook's teammates have a greater improvement in FG percentage off his passing than Harden. Who's now at a - net in January.

Also I have a strange feeling this wasn't the sentiment with Harden 2 years ago (when notably I said he should have been MVP) when he lifted a bad Houston offense to good, just as Westbrook is now.

No, I think that was very much Curry's MVP and there's a lot of revisionist history when most say Harden was 'robbed'. That team also won 56 games, not 48 or whatever the Thunder will win.

Also their FG% is so much higher because most of his assists are dump offs, he isn't as good at finding open shooters as Harden, which is fine, they just have different strengths and FG% is nicer to Russ because of it. Is there a significant difference is eFG%?

Higher as in his teammates improve their FG percentage. Not just higher than Harden's.

Well aware. Shooting more threes leads to smaller % changes that are more impactful than bigger % changes on 2s.

[bondom34]

No, I think that was very much Curry's MVP and there's a lot of revisionist history when most say Harden was 'robbed'. That team also won 56 games, not 48 or whatever the Thunder will win.

Also their FG% is so much higher because most of his assists are dump offs, he isn't as good at finding open shooters as Harden, which is fine, they just have different strengths and FG% is nicer to Russ because of it. Is there a significant difference is eFG%?

Higher as in his teammates improve their FG percentage. Not just higher than Harden's.

Well aware. Shooting more threes leads to smaller % changes that are more impactful than bigger % changes on 2s.

See the link I edited in.

Harden's teammates shoot 46.9%, Westbrook's 46.1%.

Off potential assists, Harden's jump to 52.91, but Westbrook's to 54.4.

[K_chile22]

Higher as in his teammates improve their FG percentage. Not just higher than Harden's.

Well aware. Shooting more threes leads to smaller % changes that are more impactful than bigger % changes on 2s.

See the link I edited in.

Harden's teammates shoot 46.9%, Westbrook's 46.1%.

Off potential assists, Harden's jump to 52.91, but Westbrook's to 54.4.

FG% here means very little to me. You can jump from the 60s at the rim to the 80s on dump off passes. On 3s you probably won't shoot over 50% no matter how open you are and you start in the low 40s. But the change in impact may be bigger because the extra point. If theres a significant difference in eFG% I'll consider this relevant. As is its just the effect of how they get their assists

[Green89]

Does anyone know if any MVP winner has averaged more than 5 turnovers per game like both Harden and Westbrook average now?

Nobody has averaged 5 turnovers or more in the whole history of the league. Harden and Westbrook are on pace to smash the record for most turnovers in a season.

That's nuts. I don't think either should be voted MVP if that's the case. If you subtract how many points their turnovers give the other team, it would severely negate some of their own points per game output.

[K_chile22]

Does anyone know if any MVP winner has averaged more than 5 turnovers per game like both Harden and Westbrook average now?

Nobody has averaged 5 turnovers or more in the whole history of the league. Harden and Westbrook are on pace to smash the record for most turnovers in a season.

That's nuts. I don't think either should be voted MVP if that's the case. If you subtract how many points their turnovers give the other team, it would severely negate some of their own points per game output.

5 turnovers outweigh the 40+ points they both create every night? OK.

[Green89]

Nobody has averaged 5 turnovers or more in the whole history of the league. Harden and Westbrook are on pace to smash the record for most turnovers in a season.

That's nuts. I don't think either should be voted MVP if that's the case. If you subtract how many points their turnovers give the other team, it would severely negate some of their own points per game output.

5 turnovers outweigh the 40+ points they both create every night? OK.

If other stars and MVPs can keep their turnovers down, why can't they? No one has ever won MVP and turned the ball over that many times. 5 turnovers can give the other team up to 15 points back.

[bondom34]

Well aware. Shooting more threes leads to smaller % changes that are more impactful than bigger % changes on 2s.

See the link I edited in.

Harden's teammates shoot 46.9%, Westbrook's 46.1%.

Off potential assists, Harden's jump to 52.91, but Westbrook's to 54.4.

FG% here means very little to me. You can jump from the 60s at the rim to the 80s on dump off passes. On 3s you probably won't shoot over 50% no matter how open you are and you start in the low 40s. But the change in impact may be bigger because the extra point. If theres a significant difference in eFG% I'll consider this relevant. As is its just the effect of how they get their assists

So you seem to not want to give credit to what is showing Westbrook a superior passer, works for me.

Edit: Sorry if that sounded harsh, but at this point I know there's no way anyone even thinks Westbrook has a shot, which is amazing given what he's doing. Harden's having a fantastic season, but Westbrook's is just as good.

[Bergmaniac]

That's nuts. I don't think either should be voted MVP if that's the case. If you subtract how many points their turnovers give the other team, it would severely negate some of their own points per game output.

5 turnovers outweigh the 40+ points they both create every night? OK.

If other stars and MVPs can keep their turnovers down, why can't they? No one has ever won MVP and turned the ball over that many times. 5 turnovers can give the other team up to 15 points back.

Yeah, but nobody else has dominated the ball to the extend they do and used as many possessions as them to try to score or create. IIRC Westbrook is on pace to break the record for both usage percentage and assist percentage in the same season which is nuts.