2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2

[gmoney411]

Harden would beat Westbrook, but fall short of Leonard, if we're looking for that same consistency.

Why is that? After tonight both players will have led their teams to 51 wins. Are you giving Leonard credit for 6 Spurs wins when he didn't even play?

You dont know the impact of locker room presence can do for a team. I dont think it's fair to isolate team record removing games he missed, assuming a player does play above a certain threshold of games. You can't judge the impact he has. Maybe his teamamtes like him so much they played hard for him. One of the reasons kawhi is valuable is because he is such a team player and likeable guy to play with, which helps the whole team play better and win. If these kinds of things didn't matter we'd just rely 100% on stats

Or maybe he has good teammates and one of the greatest coaches of all time. I have no idea how it's unfair to judge a players impact on a team based on how well the team has played with him in the lineup.

The Rockets are 51-22 with Harden on the court and the Spurs are 51-15 with Kawhi. The argument for him is that his team has won a higher percentage of games with him playing than the Rockets have with Harden playing. But that can somewhat be countered by the Spurs going 6-1 without Leonard. Only somewhat because the sample size is so small.

[Edrees]

Could it be Curry's 14-15 supporting cast was 5x better than Hardens, and Harden's 16-17 supporting cast is 2x better than WB's?

Not trying to be an ass, honest question here.

I say lets drop this 14-15 vs 16-17 comparison, for the 3rd time in this thread I think. It's not healthy.

It's also around 10x harder going 67-15 than it is 56-26 while its just around 2x harder going 51-22 than going 41-31.

Or maybe more wins can be squeezed out of 56-26 with a healthy squad, or 67-15 would take a huge dent with Klay & Green missing half season? Or Give Mark Jackson back to 14-15 GSW and MDA to 14-15 HOU see how things would play out? So we are saying coaching also impacts MVP, which is supposed to be a player's individual award?

Like I said, keep going down this road won't end well.

I agree, the comparison is terrible and relies on too many hypotheticals, so we should all accept the past and just debate this season. I only wanted to point out you can go on forever about having "consistent reasoning" because there are too many factors.

[Thundershock88]

Anyone just see what Russell did? You're kidding yourself if you think he's not MVP. What he just did was God like.

Against a quality opponent too.

Coming off of a back to back on the road. Hate all you'd like.

[SixthFan]

Just face it, you don't like Westbrooks attitude. You like your black people docile. The dude has been averaging almost 8 rebounds a game the past two seasons so get the rebound **** out of here. Magic Johnson averaged less and he is considered one of the best rebounding point guards ever.

[xsatyr01]

Anyone just see what Russell did? You're kidding yourself if you think he's not MVP. What he just did was God like.

Against a quality opponent too.

Coming off of a back to back on the road. Hate all you'd like.

Rockets are 13-1 on back to backs with a chance at matching the record this season.

Either way I wasn't hating; just having some fun in this thread.

[K_chile22]

Just face it, you don't like Westbrooks attitude. You like your black people docile. The dude has been averaging almost 8 rebounds a game the past two seasons so get the rebound **** out of here. Magic Johnson averaged less and he is considered one of the best rebounding point guards ever.

Yes, we who have different opinions than you are, in fact, just racists! You caught us!

[Patches Perry]

Rockets fans just want consistency. Curry beat Harden for the award 2 years ago, so Harden better beat Russell using the same argument.

Harden would beat Westbrook, but fall short of Leonard, if we're looking for that same consistency.

Why is that? After tonight both players will have led their teams to 51 wins. Are you giving Leonard credit for 6 Spurs wins when he didn't even play?

Fair point, although if you go that route, we'd probably need to look at plus/minus stats more than wins. If we can't credit Leonard for wins while he was out, then we can't credit Harden for success in minutes while he was out. I don't know what the plus/minus numbers are though, so maybe they would only strengthen his case.

[Thundershock88]

Against a quality opponent too.

Coming off of a back to back on the road. Hate all you'd like.

Rockets are 13-1 on back to backs with a chance at matching the record this season.

Either way I wasn't hating; just having some fun in this thread.

The Rockets are a better team but Westbrook is the better player. 14-0 run and Westbrook had 12 of them, along with the clutch inbound turnover and game winner. Let's not forget that he basically single handedly willed the Thunder back into the Rockets game and cut it to 8. Show some respect. Coming back from 13 with 4 minutes left is incredible.

[ken6199]

Just face it, you don't like Westbrooks attitude. You like your black people docile. The dude has been averaging almost 8 rebounds a game the past two seasons so get the rebound **** out of here. Magic Johnson averaged less and he is considered one of the best rebounding point guards ever.

Lets leave racism out of it.

[Patches Perry]

I'm not sure why people still argue with Westbrook haters/detractors. He is polarizing. On one hand, people absolutely adore him because he's ultra fiery, competitive, incredible work ethic and doesn't want "rest and relaxation/mental health" type days off like other stars. People love that in an age of Charmin soft superstars who are buddy buddy and don't go at each other. On the other hand, people hate him because he's arrogant, stubborn, dominates the ball, takes a lot of bad shots and turns the ball over a lot. I can understand that.

He's the new Kobe. 90% of fans either love him or hate him. I can understand the why for both sides.

[Prez]

Harden would beat Westbrook, but fall short of Leonard, if we're looking for that same consistency.

Why is that? After tonight both players will have led their teams to 51 wins. Are you giving Leonard credit for 6 Spurs wins when he didn't even play?

Fair point, although if you go that route, we'd probably need to look at plus/minus stats more than wins. If we can't credit Leonard for wins while he was out, then we can't credit Harden for success in minutes while he was out. I don't know what the plus/minus numbers are though, so maybe they would only strengthen his case.

No one but Westbrook supporters want to go that route, considering basically all the impact stats are in Westbrook's favor. Against both Harden and Leonard.

[SixthFan]

Just face it, you don't like Westbrooks attitude. You like your black people docile. The dude has been averaging almost 8 rebounds a game the past two seasons so get the rebound **** out of here. Magic Johnson averaged less and he is considered one of the best rebounding point guards ever.

Lets leave racism out of it.

Cause race and attitude have nothing to do with the fact Kobe and Iverson only have a combined 2 MVP's.

[K_chile22]

Why is that? After tonight both players will have led their teams to 51 wins. Are you giving Leonard credit for 6 Spurs wins when he didn't even play?

Fair point, although if you go that route, we'd probably need to look at plus/minus stats more than wins. If we can't credit Leonard for wins while he was out, then we can't credit Harden for success in minutes while he was out. I don't know what the plus/minus numbers are though, so maybe they would only strengthen his case.

No one but Westbrook supporters want to go that route, considering basically all the impact stats are in Westbrook's favor. Against both Harden and Leonard.

Think he meant actual +/-. How good their teams are with them in the floor.
Kawhi is 8.8 Harden 7.7 and Westbrook 4.4

[Patches Perry]

Why is that? After tonight both players will have led their teams to 51 wins. Are you giving Leonard credit for 6 Spurs wins when he didn't even play?

Fair point, although if you go that route, we'd probably need to look at plus/minus stats more than wins. If we can't credit Leonard for wins while he was out, then we can't credit Harden for success in minutes while he was out. I don't know what the plus/minus numbers are though, so maybe they would only strengthen his case.

No one but Westbrook supporters want to go that route, considering basically all the impact stats are in Westbrook's favor. Against both Harden and Leonard.

If that's the case, that solidifies my suspicion that Harden gets caught in between the value of individual greatness (Westbrook) and Leonard with having more wins.

I'd be fine with Harden winning. He deserves it. But I'd go with Westbrook or Leonard first.

[ken6199]

Just face it, you don't like Westbrooks attitude. You like your black people docile. The dude has been averaging almost 8 rebounds a game the past two seasons so get the rebound **** out of here. Magic Johnson averaged less and he is considered one of the best rebounding point guards ever.

Lets leave racism out of it.

Cause race and attitude have nothing to do with the fact Kobe and Iverson only have a combined 2 MVP's.

And Wade has none?

The content doesn't matter. This is not the place to talk about race, so I urge you not to continue further.

[K_chile22]

I think this race will come down to second place votes. And because you see a lot more of 'it's Kawhi or Harden' than 'it's Kawhi or Russ' Harden will win it

[BallerTalk]

I'm not sure why people still argue with Westbrook haters/detractors. He is polarizing. On one hand, people absolutely adore him because he's ultra fiery, competitive, incredible work ethic and doesn't want "rest and relaxation/mental health" type days off like other stars. People love that in an age of Charmin soft superstars who are buddy buddy and don't go at each other. On the other hand, people hate him because he's arrogant, stubborn, dominates the ball, takes a lot of bad shots and turns the ball over a lot. I can understand that.

He's the new Kobe. 90% of fans either love him or hate him. I can understand the why for both sides.

I'm not a Westbrook hater or detractor but I've found that anyone who offers an honest critique of him this season gets labeled as such.

[BallerTalk]

The one part that doesn't get enough attention is that maybe the Rockets have a better roster because it is easier to build around James Harden. I've actually heard this argument with regards to Curry - which I have to admit, is pretty compelling one - that what kind of player you choose to have as the cornerstone of your franchise also determines what kind of role players you're going to pursue and attract. I think Curry (great shooter with excellent off-the-ball movement) and Harden (a great play-maker as well as an efficient scorer) each has qualities that makes it easier to build around a winning team compared to Westbrook (an athletic point guard.)

I mean, I still to this day can't think of an ideal supporting cast for Westbrook. Shooters? Look at what happened with Durant and Ibaka. Bigs and defensive minded role players? Well, that's what WB has now. So how do you build around Westbrook, exactly? And should Harden be punished for having a style that works better with other players, and thus leading to having better teammates?

The way Harden and Westbrook each get their assists is also telling. Harden usually gets his dime by setting-up his teammates, or finding an open man. WB, on the other hand, usually gets his by creating a schism in defense by his sheer force alone, and when the defense breaks down he dishes out.

Westbrook's style of play is great for getting stats, but I'm not sure how it would fit in a more elaborate system. But one thing is for certain : Popovich would definitely prefer Harden over WB.

I agree with essentially all the points you make here, but in the interest of fairness it has to be noted that the Rockets have had more time and opportunity to build around Harden than OKC has with Westbrook exclusively.

[bondom34]

I'm not sure why people still argue with Westbrook haters/detractors. He is polarizing. On one hand, people absolutely adore him because he's ultra fiery, competitive, incredible work ethic and doesn't want "rest and relaxation/mental health" type days off like other stars. People love that in an age of Charmin soft superstars who are buddy buddy and don't go at each other. On the other hand, people hate him because he's arrogant, stubborn, dominates the ball, takes a lot of bad shots and turns the ball over a lot. I can understand that.

He's the new Kobe. 90% of fans either love him or hate him. I can understand the why for both sides.

I've stopped, though I've found most people aren't haters there are a few and it gets me too annoyed to bother. Most people itt aren't. Only a few argue "stat padder/empty numbers" to fit their story. I gave up on this thread a while back because of it, if I want to actually talk basketball I just go to the PC board where generally people use something to back an opinion a bit better. Criticism is possible without just blind hatred.

[xsatyr01]

Coming off of a back to back on the road. Hate all you'd like.

Rockets are 13-1 on back to backs with a chance at matching the record this season.

Either way I wasn't hating; just having some fun in this thread.

The Rockets are a better team but Westbrook is the better player. 14-0 run and Westbrook had 12 of them, along with the clutch inbound turnover and game winner. Let's not forget that he basically single handedly willed the Thunder back into the Rockets game and cut it to 8. Show some respect. Coming back from 13 with 4 minutes left is incredible.

Westbrook being the better player is completely subjective. Harden has his own share of games where he willed his team to a win. He averaged 33 points and 13.3 assists over the past week including a game winner followed by a defensive stop.

Also four minutes is still plenty of time for a 13 point deficit so saying it's incredible is hyperbole. Nevertheless great game for Brodie.