2022-23 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt.1)

[Cubbies2120]

I'd love to see the hoops people jump through to justify how this pedestrian Jokic triple double is some all time MVP worthy performance.

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Embiid could never score just 13 points and be the reason Philly won.

That’s the difference

Against the Raptors in the Kawhi series he had some low scoring games that they won because his defense was so good.

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Just gotta go back 4 seasons to find an example, when he was playing with Ben Simmons & Jimmy Butler, two obvious slouches on defense

[Exp0sed]

Embiid could never score just 13 points and be the reason Philly won.

That’s the difference

Against the Raptors in the Kawhi series he had some low scoring games that they won because his defense was so good.

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Just gotta go back 4 seasons to find an example, when he was playing with Ben Simmons & Jimmy Butler, two obvious slouches on defense

forget that, if you'd add Butler and Simmons to Jokic - you got urself a likely championship

[eyeatoma]

Embiid could never score just 13 points and be the reason Philly won.

That’s the difference

Against the Raptors in the Kawhi series he had some low scoring games that they won because his defense was so good.

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Just gotta go back 4 seasons to find an example, when he was playing with Ben Simmons & Jimmy Butler, two obvious slouches on defense

You can't discount his own defense because of his teammates man.

He was a +90 for the series. Y'all find excuses for everything. Just absolutely refuse to acknowledge any accomplishment or give him his flowers.

You realize he's playing great defense this season as well right? And last year during the playoffs, sans Ben Simmons.

Like come the fawk on. It's like saying Michael Jordan isn't impacting the game on bad days with defense just because Pippen and Rodman were there. Simmons and Butler don't even compare...

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[Cubbies2120]

Against the Raptors in the Kawhi series he had some low scoring games that they won because his defense was so good.

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Just gotta go back 4 seasons to find an example, when he was playing with Ben Simmons & Jimmy Butler, two obvious slouches on defense

You can't discount his own defense because of his teammates man.

He was a +90 for the series. Y'all find excuses for everything. Just absolutely refuse to acknowledge any accomplishment or give him his flowers.

You realize he's playing great defense this season as well right? And last year during the playoffs, sans Ben Simmons.

Like come the fawk on. It's like saying Michael Jordan isn't impacting the game on bad days with defense just because Pippen and Rodman were there. Simmons and Butler don't even compare...

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I'm not saying his defense wasn't good, but let's not pretend that's the reason "why they won"...

Embiid shot 28.6%, and you're saying "they won because his defense was so good"...how about Butler dropping 30, think that had nothing to do with it?

Maybe phrase it differently, "he contributed in other ways", rather than "they won because his defense was so good" while he shot 28.6% and his teammate carried the load offensively.

That would be like me saying "Jokic beat the Jazz in the bubble because his facilitating/scoring were so good", completely overlooking that Murray dropped 50...

[CobraCommander]

Stop whining your guy will win it this season and I agree this was an average performance by Jokic. He had some nice dimes but except that not really impressive.

Do you expect him to absolutely dominate every single game?

No one has even said it was a dominant performance.

Just that Denver are now #1 seed in the West.

He did also play against the best defender in the league atm in JJJ as well as another solid defender in Adams.

Can't expect 40/20/10 games every day. A simple 13/13/13 on 50% FG, +13 and a Win is just fine. Did exactly what he needed to continue his ascension up the MVP ladder (if he isn't already at the top).

Wait ....only one complaining about the last game didn’t watch the last game OR the interview after....

Jokic prioritizes the pass which is why his team and team mates look better than other teams with guys with gaudy numbers that proprieties are focused on scoring... sure other mvp candidates can pass but they look for their shot first...Jokic looks to run the offense and score when needed...

[AleksandarN]

Read on Twitter

[eyeatoma]

Just gotta go back 4 seasons to find an example, when he was playing with Ben Simmons & Jimmy Butler, two obvious slouches on defense

You can't discount his own defense because of his teammates man.

He was a +90 for the series. Y'all find excuses for everything. Just absolutely refuse to acknowledge any accomplishment or give him his flowers.

You realize he's playing great defense this season as well right? And last year during the playoffs, sans Ben Simmons.

Like come the fawk on. It's like saying Michael Jordan isn't impacting the game on bad days with defense just because Pippen and Rodman were there. Simmons and Butler don't even compare...

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I'm not saying his defense wasn't good, but let's not pretend that's the reason "why they won"...

Embiid shot 28.6%, and you're saying "they won because his defense was so good"...how about Butler dropping 30, think that had nothing to do with it?

Maybe phrase it differently, "he contributed in other ways", rather than "they won because his defense was so good" while he shot 28.6% and his teammate carried the load offensively.

That would be like me saying "Jokic beat the Jazz in the bubble because his facilitating/scoring were so good", completely overlooking that Murray dropped 50...

Given that he was a +90 for that series yet he shot terribly, it's pretty obvious that elite defense made up for his woeful offense in the series and was a huge reason why the series came to the last shot. Having that huge of a plus minus shows that he was the biggest factor in the series. It took a miracle for the Raptors to win.

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[Cubbies2120]

You can't discount his own defense because of his teammates man.

He was a +90 for the series. Y'all find excuses for everything. Just absolutely refuse to acknowledge any accomplishment or give him his flowers.

You realize he's playing great defense this season as well right? And last year during the playoffs, sans Ben Simmons.

Like come the fawk on. It's like saying Michael Jordan isn't impacting the game on bad days with defense just because Pippen and Rodman were there. Simmons and Butler don't even compare...

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I'm not saying his defense wasn't good, but let's not pretend that's the reason "why they won"...

Embiid shot 28.6%, and you're saying "they won because his defense was so good"...how about Butler dropping 30, think that had nothing to do with it?

Maybe phrase it differently, "he contributed in other ways", rather than "they won because his defense was so good" while he shot 28.6% and his teammate carried the load offensively.

That would be like me saying "Jokic beat the Jazz in the bubble because his facilitating/scoring were so good", completely overlooking that Murray dropped 50...

Given that he was a +90 for that series yet he shot terribly, it's pretty obvious that elite defense made up for his woeful offense in the series and was a huge reason why the series came to the last shot. Having that huge of a plus minus shows that he was the biggest factor in the series. It took a miracle for the Raptors to win.

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Which of the two do you think provides more value to a team:

Game 1: +40
Game 2: +40
Game 3: +40
Game 4: -9
Game 5: -9
Game 6: -9
Game 7: -9

Total: +84

or

Game 1: +12
Game 1: +12
Game 1: +12
Game 1: +12
Game 1: +12
Game 1: +12
Game 1: +12

Total: +84

There's two huge +- outliers in Embiid's data set (one big blowout), but I'm glad you're finally a huge fan of the +- stats as performance indicators, a lot of people were talking them down when Jokic was dominating and setting records with them last couple years...I'm glad you've come around

[Duke4life831]

At the moment I think there is a nice gap between Jokic and everyone else. He checks off pretty much every box you can ask for when looking at MVP

Elite raw stats? Check
Elite advanced metrics? Check
Team success? Check
Not being on a stacked team with another MVP candidate? Check

It seems like at the moment, whatever argument you can come up with for your criteria for MVP, Jokic checks it off. Best player in the game and Im now at the point where Im not even rooting for my Duke guy to win. I want to see Jokic win just to see the reaction from some on here and the talking heads trying to explain how the guy they clearly hate talking about just won 3 straight MVPs.

[Decipher]

Against the Raptors in the Kawhi series he had some low scoring games that they won because his defense was so good.

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Just gotta go back 4 seasons to find an example, when he was playing with Ben Simmons & Jimmy Butler, two obvious slouches on defense

You can't discount his own defense because of his teammates man.

He was a +90 for the series. Y'all find excuses for everything. Just absolutely refuse to acknowledge any accomplishment or give him his flowers.

You realize he's playing great defense this season as well right? And last year during the playoffs, sans Ben Simmons.

Like come the fawk on. It's like saying Michael Jordan isn't impacting the game on bad days with defense just because Pippen and Rodman were there. Simmons and Butler don't even compare...

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C'mon man, Jo is a top player so there's no need to rewrite history

The standard of Embiid's play varied a lot in that Raps series due to illness & his troubles with Gasol

He was great in 2-3 games and pretty ordinary for the remainder

[Duke4life831]

I will say this when it comes to Embiid, he got screwed when he was born haha. This is kind of like Clyde Drexler getting screwed over he came in the league at the same time as MJ. If MJ never came along, Clyde most likely wouldve been viewed as the best 2 guard from the mid 80s to mid 90s.

Same for Embiid, if it wasnt for Jokic, Embiid would be viewed as this dominant multi MVP best big man in the NBA. And I want to be clear, this isnt me taking a shot at Embiid, he is a legit multi MVP runner up and elite player. He just so happens to be playing when Jokic is and Jokic is just on the next tier. So Embiid is missing out on the 1st team All NBAs and MVP awards because Jokic is around.

[eyeatoma]

I will say this when it comes to Embiid, he got screwed when he was born haha. This is kind of like Clyde Drexler getting screwed over he came in the league at the same time as MJ. If MJ never came along, Clyde most likely wouldve been viewed as the best 2 guard from the mid 80s to mid 90s.

Same for Embiid, if it wasnt for Jokic, Embiid would be viewed as this dominant multi MVP best big man in the NBA. And I want to be clear, this isnt me taking a shot at Embiid, he is a legit multi MVP runner up and elite player. He just so happens to be playing when Jokic is and Jokic is just on the next tier. So Embiid is missing out on the 1st team All NBAs and MVP awards because Jokic is around.

Jokic is amazing, but we also are in an age where advanced stats being over prioritized is a problem. Jokic is the 29th in the league in Defensive win shares, but somehow he's 1st in DPBM?

Meanwhile, Embiid is 3rd in DPBM this year and 11th in defensive win shares.

Defense advance stats also seems to highly prioritise rebounding, which Jokic is a demon on. Also, because Jokic is an average to slightly above average defender I'm guessing his his DPBM is so high because everyone is so damn bad. That's basically, the less **** defensive player rising to the top. It's not saying he's this elite defender.

For Jokic to win the 3rd MVP, IMO he needed to have won a title. I can't see a player winning MVP 3 years in a row, with the way others are playing. The farthest Jokic has gotten is the WCF. He hasn't even made an NBA finals. Every 3 time MVP has won a title. Last year's MVP should have been Embiid's, and if Embiid were healthy he would have won it 2 years ago as well.

The bigger problem for Embiid has been injuries, not that he's around when Jokic is. Advanced stats are a fad, that will fade like other things in the NBA have as well...

[eyeatoma]

Also, can we stop touting Giannis as the MVP favorite as well. They are getting eviscerated by the Cavs right now.

[AleksandarN]

I will say this when it comes to Embiid, he got screwed when he was born haha. This is kind of like Clyde Drexler getting screwed over he came in the league at the same time as MJ. If MJ never came along, Clyde most likely wouldve been viewed as the best 2 guard from the mid 80s to mid 90s.

Same for Embiid, if it wasnt for Jokic, Embiid would be viewed as this dominant multi MVP best big man in the NBA. And I want to be clear, this isnt me taking a shot at Embiid, he is a legit multi MVP runner up and elite player. He just so happens to be playing when Jokic is and Jokic is just on the next tier. So Embiid is missing out on the 1st team All NBAs and MVP awards because Jokic is around.

Jokic is amazing, but we also are in an age where advanced stats being over prioritized is a problem. Jokic is the 29th in the league in Defensive win shares, but somehow he's 1st in DPBM?

Meanwhile, Embiid is 3rd in DPBM this year and 11th in defensive win shares.

Defense advance stats also seems to highly prioritise rebounding, which Jokic is a demon on. Also, because Jokic is an average to slightly above average defender I'm guessing his his DPBM is so high because everyone is so damn bad. That's basically, the less **** defensive player rising to the top. It's not saying he's this elite defender.

For Jokic to win the 3rd MVP, IMO he needed to have won a title. I can't see a player winning MVP 3 years in a row, with the way others are playing. The farthest Jokic has gotten is the WCF. He hasn't even made an NBA finals. Every 3 time MVP has won a title. Last year's MVP should have been Embiid's, and if Embiid were healthy he would have won it 2 years ago as well.

The bigger problem for Embiid has been injuries, not that he's around when Jokic is. Advanced stats are a fad, that will fade like other things in the NBA have as well...

We went through all of this last year bud. Jokic was the better player who had the bigger impact on his team. You keep saying the opposite does not make it suddenly true. Jokic had the better season thus his second back to back MVP

[eyeatoma]

I will say this when it comes to Embiid, he got screwed when he was born haha. This is kind of like Clyde Drexler getting screwed over he came in the league at the same time as MJ. If MJ never came along, Clyde most likely wouldve been viewed as the best 2 guard from the mid 80s to mid 90s.

Same for Embiid, if it wasnt for Jokic, Embiid would be viewed as this dominant multi MVP best big man in the NBA. And I want to be clear, this isnt me taking a shot at Embiid, he is a legit multi MVP runner up and elite player. He just so happens to be playing when Jokic is and Jokic is just on the next tier. So Embiid is missing out on the 1st team All NBAs and MVP awards because Jokic is around.

Jokic is amazing, but we also are in an age where advanced stats being over prioritized is a problem. Jokic is the 29th in the league in Defensive win shares, but somehow he's 1st in DPBM?

Meanwhile, Embiid is 3rd in DPBM this year and 11th in defensive win shares.

Defense advance stats also seems to highly prioritise rebounding, which Jokic is a demon on. Also, because Jokic is an average to slightly above average defender I'm guessing his his DPBM is so high because everyone is so damn bad. That's basically, the less **** defensive player rising to the top. It's not saying he's this elite defender.

For Jokic to win the 3rd MVP, IMO he needed to have won a title. I can't see a player winning MVP 3 years in a row, with the way others are playing. The farthest Jokic has gotten is the WCF. He hasn't even made an NBA finals. Every 3 time MVP has won a title. Last year's MVP should have been Embiid's, and if Embiid were healthy he would have won it 2 years ago as well.

The bigger problem for Embiid has been injuries, not that he's around when Jokic is. Advanced stats are a fad, that will fade like other things in the NBA have as well...

We went through all of this last year bud. Jokic was the better player who had the bigger impact on his team. You keep saying the opposite does not make it suddenly true. Jokic had the better season thus his second back to back MVP

Agree to disagree, that's all I'm going to say. Not going to have a back and forth with you.

[eyeatoma]

Tatum's MVP shot fading as well. Getting destroyed right now...

[Duke4life831]

I will say this when it comes to Embiid, he got screwed when he was born haha. This is kind of like Clyde Drexler getting screwed over he came in the league at the same time as MJ. If MJ never came along, Clyde most likely wouldve been viewed as the best 2 guard from the mid 80s to mid 90s.

Same for Embiid, if it wasnt for Jokic, Embiid would be viewed as this dominant multi MVP best big man in the NBA. And I want to be clear, this isnt me taking a shot at Embiid, he is a legit multi MVP runner up and elite player. He just so happens to be playing when Jokic is and Jokic is just on the next tier. So Embiid is missing out on the 1st team All NBAs and MVP awards because Jokic is around.

Jokic is amazing, but we also are in an age where advanced stats being over prioritized is a problem. Jokic is the 29th in the league in Defensive win shares, but somehow he's 1st in DPBM?

Meanwhile, Embiid is 3rd in DPBM this year and 11th in defensive win shares.

Defense advance stats also seems to highly prioritise rebounding, which Jokic is a demon on. Also, because Jokic is an average to slightly above average defender I'm guessing his his DPBM is so high because everyone is so damn bad. That's basically, the less **** defensive player rising to the top. It's not saying he's this elite defender.

For Jokic to win the 3rd MVP, IMO he needed to have won a title. I can't see a player winning MVP 3 years in a row, with the way others are playing. The farthest Jokic has gotten is the WCF. He hasn't even made an NBA finals. Every 3 time MVP has won a title. Last year's MVP should have been Embiid's, and if Embiid were healthy he would have won it 2 years ago as well.

The bigger problem for Embiid has been injuries, not that he's around when Jokic is. Advanced stats are a fad, that will fade like other things in the NBA have as well...

Haha no, more knowledge isn’t going to fade. Advanced metrics is just that, more knowledge. And again it’s not just one thing that backs this up for Jokic.

He is putting up ridiculous raw stats
His team is drastically better when he is on the court compared to when he’s off
His team is currently a 1 seed, even though when you look at the roster they have no reason to be up that high except for Jokic

Guess what it’s not shocking when you look at all of those things, he just also happens to have ridiculous advanced metrics.

Saying advanced metrics are a fad and will fade away is not the hill to die on to try and say the player you’re a fan of is better. Maybe just maybe it might be time to realize you might have a slight bias in this.

[Mickey8]

Also, can we stop touting Giannis as the MVP favorite as well. They are getting eviscerated by the Cavs right now.

So one loss of your team disqualifies you from the contention

[eyeatoma]

I will say this when it comes to Embiid, he got screwed when he was born haha. This is kind of like Clyde Drexler getting screwed over he came in the league at the same time as MJ. If MJ never came along, Clyde most likely wouldve been viewed as the best 2 guard from the mid 80s to mid 90s.

Same for Embiid, if it wasnt for Jokic, Embiid would be viewed as this dominant multi MVP best big man in the NBA. And I want to be clear, this isnt me taking a shot at Embiid, he is a legit multi MVP runner up and elite player. He just so happens to be playing when Jokic is and Jokic is just on the next tier. So Embiid is missing out on the 1st team All NBAs and MVP awards because Jokic is around.

Jokic is amazing, but we also are in an age where advanced stats being over prioritized is a problem. Jokic is the 29th in the league in Defensive win shares, but somehow he's 1st in DPBM?

Meanwhile, Embiid is 3rd in DPBM this year and 11th in defensive win shares.

Defense advance stats also seems to highly prioritise rebounding, which Jokic is a demon on. Also, because Jokic is an average to slightly above average defender I'm guessing his his DPBM is so high because everyone is so damn bad. That's basically, the less **** defensive player rising to the top. It's not saying he's this elite defender.

For Jokic to win the 3rd MVP, IMO he needed to have won a title. I can't see a player winning MVP 3 years in a row, with the way others are playing. The farthest Jokic has gotten is the WCF. He hasn't even made an NBA finals. Every 3 time MVP has won a title. Last year's MVP should have been Embiid's, and if Embiid were healthy he would have won it 2 years ago as well.

The bigger problem for Embiid has been injuries, not that he's around when Jokic is. Advanced stats are a fad, that will fade like other things in the NBA have as well...

Haha no, more knowledge isn’t going to fade. Advanced metrics is just that, more knowledge. And again it’s not just one thing that backs this up for Jokic.

He is putting up ridiculous raw stats
His team is drastically better when he is on the court compared to when he’s off
His team is currently a 1 seed, even though when you look at the roster they have no reason to be up that high except for Jokic

Guess what it’s not shocking when you look at all of those things, he just also happens to have ridiculous advanced metrics.

Saying advanced metrics are a fad and will fade away is not the hill to die on to try and say the player you’re a fan of is better. Maybe just maybe it might be time to realize you might have a slight bias in this.

I definitely am biased. Not denying that. I also don't think the chasm the advanced stats show is indicative of the actual gap between Embiid and Jokic. The advanced stats are so lopsided for Jokic because he is so much better on that team. Everyone else basically sucks. He's incredible, but put him on a team where he's not the only star, and he won't have numbers nearly as impressive.

Jokic on the Grizzlies instead of Ja, the Warriors instead of Draymond, the Pelicans instead of Zion, Celtics instead of Tatum? Not nearly as good.

Jokic in Philly instead of Embiid? Good luck with that, Embiid makes the team have a top 5 defense. The Nuggets are currently number 28 in defense.

Edit: Actually he'd be good on the Grizzlies with their defense.

Add Jokic to the Mavs, Hawks not as good.

Jokic needs to be added to a team with defense for him to truly shine and be successful. Embiid brings the offense and defense. Not as good a passer by any stretch of the imagination, but Embiid is an easy fit on any team.

[Packbuckman]

Also, can we stop touting Giannis as the MVP favorite as well. They are getting eviscerated by the Cavs right now.

Lol really dude he had 45-14 the next buck was at 14 if the others played normal including jrue the bucks easily win this gm.