NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 3)

[Cubbies2120]

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Now what’s that list for “40+ points created by a Center”? So points + assist points?

Also, there was a reason Shaq had a higher FT rate…https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hack-a-Shaq

Finally, out of all players to average 20ppg for their career, Embiid has the highest % of his points from the line in…NBA history. Yes, all time.

You guys don't give up do you. Embiid is a bull in a china shop. He initiates contact, and he gets mauled, for every time you guys say he flops, there are about 5 times as many times that there's a non call, or he gets hammered. He earns the majority of his free throw attempts fairly. There is the occasional time he flops, and he shouldn't be penalized for it. You can complain all you want that it can be hard to look at, but that's what the refs allow, and they haven't changed that. More importantly players like Giannis, who average more free throws, flop too, but we don't here anything. There are so many times that he just rams into a player, and what should be a charge turns into a foul. Are you guys saying you don't mind Giannis doing it because he's a terrible shooter. Or is it pure jealousy that someone like Jokic doesn't get these calls. It really is one of the funniest things I've seen on the internet, people bitching about this. Fact of the matter is, Embiid isn't nearly as bad as Chris Paul, Kyle Lowry, Marcus Smart, James Harden, some of the biggest floppers of all time. W/e anyway to break a person down I guess.

That’s a lot of text to defend something 29 other teams fans notice (the absolutely hilarious sight of a ~300 lb man hitting the floor a few times a game). But I guess 29 teams fans are wrong, and the one with a reason to be biased is right.

Carry on

[Mickey8]

At this point, anyone but Jokic. This season he really don't deserve it, the last two he rightfully won it.

Can you explain your reasoning? Without using anything narrative based?

I explained in my post about Jokic's playing this season. In two seasons he had won MVP awards he was dominating player in almost every game that he played , leading the poor rosters to the third and sixth place respectively in the Western Conference . The last season especially was individually great for him and what he had done with the teammates like Barton,Campazzo,Morris, brothers Green etc. That was the one of the greatest carrying job in the regular season in NBA history. This season he's not playing dominant basketball , he did in about 15 to 20 games rest of them to me were average in my opinion and you can't be an average player and be considered as the MVP candidate. The sad thing is, he can play great basketball whenever he wants to but him deferring to lesser talents on the team every night is nauseating, not taking the shots, even when his team missing and attempting all kind of bad shots. Thats the lack of leadership by him as well this season.

[eyeatoma]

Now what’s that list for “40+ points created by a Center”? So points + assist points?

Also, there was a reason Shaq had a higher FT rate…https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hack-a-Shaq

Finally, out of all players to average 20ppg for their career, Embiid has the highest % of his points from the line in…NBA history. Yes, all time.

You guys don't give up do you. Embiid is a bull in a china shop. He initiates contact, and he gets mauled, for every time you guys say he flops, there are about 5 times as many times that there's a non call, or he gets hammered. He earns the majority of his free throw attempts fairly. There is the occasional time he flops, and he shouldn't be penalized for it. You can complain all you want that it can be hard to look at, but that's what the refs allow, and they haven't changed that. More importantly players like Giannis, who average more free throws, flop too, but we don't here anything. There are so many times that he just rams into a player, and what should be a charge turns into a foul. Are you guys saying you don't mind Giannis doing it because he's a terrible shooter. Or is it pure jealousy that someone like Jokic doesn't get these calls. It really is one of the funniest things I've seen on the internet, people bitching about this. Fact of the matter is, Embiid isn't nearly as bad as Chris Paul, Kyle Lowry, Marcus Smart, James Harden, some of the biggest floppers of all time. W/e anyway to break a person down I guess.

That’s a lot of text to defend something 29 other teams fans notice (the absolutely hilarious sight of a ~300 lb man hitting the floor a few times a game). But I guess 29 teams fans are wrong, and the one with a reason to be biased is right.

Carry on

Yeah, you've polled 29 different teams' fanbases, that is the weakest bit of evidence I've ever seen. You're losing your touch man, I expected better. Also, you not actually addressing my points shows me that you know I'm right, and you're just trying to deflect.

[kuclas]

You guys don't give up do you. Embiid is a bull in a china shop. He initiates contact, and he gets mauled, for every time you guys say he flops, there are about 5 times as many times that there's a non call, or he gets hammered. He earns the majority of his free throw attempts fairly. There is the occasional time he flops, and he shouldn't be penalized for it. You can complain all you want that it can be hard to look at, but that's what the refs allow, and they haven't changed that. More importantly players like Giannis, who average more free throws, flop too, but we don't here anything. There are so many times that he just rams into a player, and what should be a charge turns into a foul. Are you guys saying you don't mind Giannis doing it because he's a terrible shooter. Or is it pure jealousy that someone like Jokic doesn't get these calls. It really is one of the funniest things I've seen on the internet, people bitching about this. Fact of the matter is, Embiid isn't nearly as bad as Chris Paul, Kyle Lowry, Marcus Smart, James Harden, some of the biggest floppers of all time. W/e anyway to break a person down I guess.

That’s a lot of text to defend something 29 other teams fans notice (the absolutely hilarious sight of a ~300 lb man hitting the floor a few times a game). But I guess 29 teams fans are wrong, and the one with a reason to be biased is right.

Carry on

Yeah, you've polled 29 different teams' fanbases, that is the weakest bit of evidence I've ever seen. You're losing your touch man, I expected better. Also, you not actually addressing my points shows me that you know I'm right, and you're just trying to deflect.

That’s the problem with the nba officials. Embiid is 280 pounds. If he gets whacked by a 190 pound Steph curry. Officials will let it slide and not call it

Now if embiid whacks curry. U betcha. Curry even though he’s a pretty strong dude will sell
The foul and no one will think twice

Contact is still contact.

Me personally just get back to 1:1 nba defense. Man to man. Get rid of illegal defense. Force teams to send true double teams.

The era of the true big men will come back.

The league is too soft these days. Including big men like embiid who have to sell contact cause of the paint being crowded by hedge defenders.

[Exp0sed]

Embiid is def worse than all those guys you mentioned save Harden

CP3 and Lowry used to flop alot but Embiid is doing it on every single play that includes a drive or contact of any kind (that is - not just taking a pull up jumpshot)
he yells, he flops, he flails, he baits and falls to the ground considerably more often than those guys - usually they would just play ball and flopping was occasional for Embiid it's the main strategy (similar to Harden in his hayday)

you can tell yourself all the stories you want about Embiid having the largest % of his points coming from FT's than just about anyone

stories about how "unstoppable" he is that teams are forced to foul but that's not what happening and 29 fanbases see that very clearly - hence the general dislike for Embiid despite him being a very likable guy personally, off the court and also a real feel-good story etc

that story doesn't even make sense
Embiid is shooting 85%+ from the line, fouling him is useless - teams aren't fouling Embiid because they can't stop him
they are "fouling" him because he is extremely adapt at taking advantage of silly rules not in the spirit of real OG basketball and the sport that we all love, combined with a great ability at selling slight contact using his flails, head tilts etc

if he wasn't all about that and all about himself he'd be a.) better b.) have more postseason success and c.) be a fan favorite all around

because apart from that he is a great player with incredible skills for his size and is a really good dude

his physique coupled with his flailing is disgraceful and that disonnace is stirring up resentment towards him
If a guy like Brunson (size wise) was flopping and foul baiting the way Embiid is - ppl would have been more forgiving

comparing Embiid to Shaq is laughable, they are polar opposites in that regard

[LessEyeTest]

It’s why when Embiid picks up his annual “ouchie” right before the playoffs start I won’t feel sympathy: not after he destroyed Danny Green’s career. I’ll know he got hurt flopping on his hunt for free throws.

[Chessboxer]

I think tonight was the 7th or 8th game this year where Jokic was 1 assist shy of a triple double.

Nuggets beat Raptors in Denver.

He actually didn't play well at all.

The Raps are my home team, so I saw the game. Murray was Denvers' best player not Jokic. This is why stats can be so deceiving, using them as a sole metric for how a player played is myopic. You look at his statline at it looks like he quietly dominated, but he ran into a championship coach who completely took him out the game. The Raps were blowing up his dribble hand offs, reading his back door passes and attacking him on defense. It was Murrays' individual brilliance that edged them to the win(along with Scott Fosters' late game shenanigans).

I was trying to give Jokics' defense the benefit of the doubt since his fans say he's decent but I just don't see it. Atrocious perimeter D, and can't protect the rim. Poeltl was scoring on him at will

[Mickey8]

Your coach didn't take out Jokic of anything. Jokic took himself out of the game like the dozens of times this season. You don't follow Denver on the nightly basis. Jokic didn't look to score the ball at all , he was just jogging up and down. Annunoby can't do anything if Jokic wants to be aggressive neither can Poeltl. Poeltl scored on Jokic when Jokic was helping on defense, there were no classic one on one moves that he did on Jokic, still he scored one more point than Jokic in the game where Jokic was sleeping and Toronto got L at the end

[Chessboxer]

Your coach didn't take out Jokic of anything. Jokic took himself out of the game like the dozens of times this season. You don't follow Denver on the nightly basis. Jokic didn't look to score the ball at all , he was just jogging up and down. Annunoby can't do anything if Jokic wants to be aggressive neither can Poeltl. Poeltl scored on Jokic when Jokic was helping on defense, there were no classic one on one moves that he did on Jokic, still he scored one more point than Jokic in the game where Jokic was sleeping and Toronto got L at the end

Okay keep telling yourself all that

[Exp0sed]

I think tonight was the 7th or 8th game this year where Jokic was 1 assist shy of a triple double.

Nuggets beat Raptors in Denver.

He actually didn't play well at all.

The Raps are my home team, so I saw the game. Murray was Denvers' best player not Jokic. This is why stats can be so deceiving, using them as a sole metric for how a player played is myopic. You look at his statline at it looks like he quietly dominated, but he ran into a championship coach who completely took him out the game. The Raps were blowing up his dribble hand offs, reading his back door passes and attacking him on defense. It was Murrays' individual brilliance that edged them to the win(along with Scott Fosters' late game shenanigans).

I was trying to give Jokics' defense the benefit of the doubt since his fans say he's decent but I just don't see it. Atrocious perimeter D, and can't protect the rim. Poeltl was scoring on him at will

Murray was not Denver's best player yesterday but this was def one of the weakest Jokic games of the season

Even when he's not looking to score (which i personally don't mind, unlike you Mickey ) he's been incredibly aggressive this season, in his movement with and without the ball

yesterday he was passive, period and wasn't exerting much energy or effort on either end

disagree about the defense part tho, u need to see alot of Jokic games to get a sense of how he does it
he doesn't even try and challenge (unless it's crunchtime) when players are going for a layup etc. he lets them have it and not risking a ticky-tacky foul (or a phantom foul) - he's learned the hard way that's the best way to help his team, just concede the basket and go and get it back on the other end, instead of getting a couple of worthless fouls (and usually concede the basket anyway) and seeing his team go do down 20 when he's out

Poeltl barely scored "on him" he mostly scored when the Joker was trying to cover for his teammates i.e - helping

his stat line doesn't look he dominated either btw

5-8 is nothing, he's an excellent rebounder so when he plays starter mins u can slate him in for a dozen
he actually didn't grab quite a few which he normally grabs, normal Jokic would have 17 rebs yesterday
wasn't working as hard as he usually is on the boards either

when it counted he got the stop, the Nuggets are 1st in crunch time defense in the entire league
they can't possibly get there if Jokic is a liability on that end. he isn't, he's actually got a decent defensive impact when he's trying - he clrealy wasn't yesterday

I mean think about it, if he's such a target the best time to target him would be in the crunch, no?
how does that get reconciled with the Nuggets leading the league in crunchtime defense?

it doesn't

teams have tried, might work in the playoffs hard to say until we see these Nuggets (who are an actual basketball team unlike the last couple of seasons) but teams have consistently failed do that in the rs, that's for damn sure

btw Jokic had 3 game winning blocks (!) last season alone
that's probably more than Giannis + Embiid combined for their career

I don't think it's a big deal tbh, Nuggets have basically clinched the 1st seed anyway
he hasn't coasted much this season but i expect him to coast more and more as we approach season's end and yesterday was the begninnig of that trend imo

no reason for him to go at a 100% (and good reasons not to) every play of every game
especially when he knows how good the Nuggets are at home in the 4th

I don't have the stats on hand, but the Nuggets have an incredible stat of how many times they win a game this season when trailing after 3 quarters at home

the Raps are no world beaters, Jokic knows if they go into the fourth at home about even - they'll likely get a W anyway
which incidentally, is exactly what happened in the game

[BelgradeNugget]

I think tonight was the 7th or 8th game this year where Jokic was 1 assist shy of a triple double.

Nuggets beat Raptors in Denver.

He actually didn't play well at all.

The Raps are my home team, so I saw the game. Murray was Denvers' best player not Jokic. This is why stats can be so deceiving, using them as a sole metric for how a player played is myopic. You look at his statline at it looks like he quietly dominated, but he ran into a championship coach who completely took him out the game. The Raps were blowing up his dribble hand offs, reading his back door passes and attacking him on defense. It was Murrays' individual brilliance that edged them to the win(along with Scott Fosters' late game shenanigans).

I was trying to give Jokics' defense the benefit of the doubt since his fans say he's decent but I just don't see it. Atrocious perimeter D, and can't protect the rim. Poeltl was scoring on him at will

Everything you said was right. Jokic coasted. Was bad on defense. On offense MPJ was great, Murray and AG were very good, Jokic under his standards. They played enough to win. This game didn't mean much to us. In Memphis game they gave effort, played great D.
As far as officiating I had a feeling refs favored Reptors in 1st half, and Nuggets in the end. I rewatched the last 5 minutes and changed opinion. There were some questionable calls, both ways, didn't like Barns ejection from the game, but you guys **** the bad, that is the fact.

[Exp0sed]

the irony is that if Jokic achieves post-season success, that would probably mean the end of his MVP's because he will go full coasting mode in the rs, he wouldn't take games off probably but he will play exactly like he did yesterday, in 3rd gear

which would probably be enough for the Nuggets to get enough wins for HCA in the 1st rd etc.

and some younger, hungrier player that would need to carry his team more every night..Luka, SGA, Hali etc. would make the jump or Giannis \ Tatum whomever

for the crowd who thinks Jokic didn't deserve these MVPs because of his lack of playoff success, that would be the real irony

[Kurtz]

the irony is that if Jokic achieves post-season success, that would probably mean the end of his MVP's because he will go full coasting mode in the rs, he wouldn't take games off probably but he will play exactly like he did yesterday, in 3rd gear

which would probably be enough for the Nuggets to get enough wins for HCA in the 1st rd etc.

and some younger, hungrier player that would need to carry his team more every night..Luka, SGA, Hali etc. would make the jump or Giannis \ Tatum whomever

for the crowd who thinks Jokic didn't deserve these MVPs because of his lack of playoff success, that would be the real irony

I mean yeah, if he wins a chip and decides to coast off of it for the rest of his career, then he shouldn't sniff another MVP. Where's the irony?

It does say a lot about a player when that is your expectation of him. Other greats didn't coast after winning - Lebron didn't, Giannis didn't, Kobe, Jordan, etc.

Again, if Jokic himself said he doesn't care about MVP, and his game shows it when he's constantly in third gear and doesn't mind putting up only 8 fga/game while also largely resting on defense, then why is everyone else so gung-ho about shoving a 3rd MVP down his gullet? It's not like his numbers are blowing away the other 2 contenders for the award. And those two guys clearly want it bad btw, playing through injuries this year.

[Exp0sed]

the irony is that if Jokic achieves post-season success, that would probably mean the end of his MVP's because he will go full coasting mode in the rs, he wouldn't take games off probably but he will play exactly like he did yesterday, in 3rd gear

which would probably be enough for the Nuggets to get enough wins for HCA in the 1st rd etc.

and some younger, hungrier player that would need to carry his team more every night..Luka, SGA, Hali etc. would make the jump or Giannis \ Tatum whomever

for the crowd who thinks Jokic didn't deserve these MVPs because of his lack of playoff success, that would be the real irony

I mean yeah, if he wins a chip and decides to coast off of it for the rest of his career, then he shouldn't sniff another MVP. Where's the irony?

It does say a lot about a player when that is your expectation of him. Other greats didn't coast after winning - Lebron didn't, Giannis didn't, Kobe, Jordan, etc.

Again, if Jokic himself said he doesn't care about MVP, and his game shows it when he's constantly in third gear and doesn't mind putting up only 8 fga/game, then why is everyone else so gung-ho about shoving a 3rd MVP down his gullet? It's not like his numbers are blowing away the other 2 contenders for the award.

the irony lies in that in the 3 years he deserved it, his naysayers were claiming he doesn't deserve it because of lack of deep playoff success

If say, he'll get that playoff success this summer - their arguments will be invalidated but that's precisely when he'll stop playing like an MVP and turn to veteran coasting mode

that's the irony

as for this season, he hasn't been coasting this season he's been incredibly industrious

games like yesterday were few and far between this season
if this was the norm this season then obviously he wouldn't have won it this season either but it certainlly wasn't

idk who are your other "2 contenders" but him not being too interested in that is his choice and preference
it has nothing to do with the merit of the award

do u think voters need to factor in who wants it more and who will cry more if he doesn't get it? lol
because if that was factored in, Embiid would have been MVP every season

[Wolfgang630]

The thing with Embiid is he’s in the same conference with Giannis. The Bucks have a better record and they’re up 4 games over Philly. Giannis hasn’t had his 2nd guy playing great all year, while Embiid has had James Harden playing like a top 10 MVP candidate.

[Kurtz]

the irony is that if Jokic achieves post-season success, that would probably mean the end of his MVP's because he will go full coasting mode in the rs, he wouldn't take games off probably but he will play exactly like he did yesterday, in 3rd gear

which would probably be enough for the Nuggets to get enough wins for HCA in the 1st rd etc.

and some younger, hungrier player that would need to carry his team more every night..Luka, SGA, Hali etc. would make the jump or Giannis \ Tatum whomever

for the crowd who thinks Jokic didn't deserve these MVPs because of his lack of playoff success, that would be the real irony

I mean yeah, if he wins a chip and decides to coast off of it for the rest of his career, then he shouldn't sniff another MVP. Where's the irony?

It does say a lot about a player when that is your expectation of him. Other greats didn't coast after winning - Lebron didn't, Giannis didn't, Kobe, Jordan, etc.

Again, if Jokic himself said he doesn't care about MVP, and his game shows it when he's constantly in third gear and doesn't mind putting up only 8 fga/game, then why is everyone else so gung-ho about shoving a 3rd MVP down his gullet? It's not like his numbers are blowing away the other 2 contenders for the award.

the irony lies in that in the 3 years he deserved it, his naysayers were claiming he doesn't deserve it because of lack of deep playoff success

If say, he'll get that playoff success this summer - their arguments will be invalidated but that's precisely when he'll stop playing like an MVP and turn to veteran coasting mode

that's the irony

Ok, that never really happened though. The past 2 years the award came down to Jokic vs Embiid, and neither guy has had playoff success, so how could that argument even be possible the last two years?

This is the first year this argument is being made, and it's made only because Jokic is going for a 3-peat. No player in NBA history has ever 3 peated as an MVP without a ring. This is no different from when Giannis had no real chance to get his 3rd MVP in a row because he kept getting bounced early. This is a standard that has always stood in place and Jokic would be a significant break from precedent if he were to win his 3rd.

There is no irony, it's straight up logical, precedent-based reasoning.

[Jurassic_Park]

Giannis out tonight. Not good for mvp chances.

[LessEyeTest]

I mean yeah, if he wins a chip and decides to coast off of it for the rest of his career, then he shouldn't sniff another MVP. Where's the irony?

It does say a lot about a player when that is your expectation of him. Other greats didn't coast after winning - Lebron didn't, Giannis didn't, Kobe, Jordan, etc.

Again, if Jokic himself said he doesn't care about MVP, and his game shows it when he's constantly in third gear and doesn't mind putting up only 8 fga/game, then why is everyone else so gung-ho about shoving a 3rd MVP down his gullet? It's not like his numbers are blowing away the other 2 contenders for the award.

the irony lies in that in the 3 years he deserved it, his naysayers were claiming he doesn't deserve it because of lack of deep playoff success

If say, he'll get that playoff success this summer - their arguments will be invalidated but that's precisely when he'll stop playing like an MVP and turn to veteran coasting mode

that's the irony

Ok, that never really happened though. The past 2 years the award came down to Jokic vs Embiid, and neither guy has had playoff success, so how could that argument even be possible the last two years?

This is the first year this argument is being made, and it's made only because Jokic is going for a 3-peat. No player in NBA history has ever 3 peated as an MVP without a ring. This is no different from when Giannis had no real chance to get his 3rd MVP in a row because he kept getting bounced early. This is a standard that has always stood in place and Jokic would be a significant break from precedent if he were to win his 3rd.

There is no irony, it's straight up logical, precedent-based reasoning.

Moses Malone?

[LessEyeTest]

the irony is that if Jokic achieves post-season success, that would probably mean the end of his MVP's because he will go full coasting mode in the rs, he wouldn't take games off probably but he will play exactly like he did yesterday, in 3rd gear

which would probably be enough for the Nuggets to get enough wins for HCA in the 1st rd etc.

and some younger, hungrier player that would need to carry his team more every night..Luka, SGA, Hali etc. would make the jump or Giannis \ Tatum whomever

for the crowd who thinks Jokic didn't deserve these MVPs because of his lack of playoff success, that would be the real irony

I mean yeah, if he wins a chip and decides to coast off of it for the rest of his career, then he shouldn't sniff another MVP. Where's the irony?

It does say a lot about a player when that is your expectation of him. Other greats didn't coast after winning - Lebron didn't, Giannis didn't, Kobe, Jordan, etc.

Again, if Jokic himself said he doesn't care about MVP, and his game shows it when he's constantly in third gear and doesn't mind putting up only 8 fga/game while also largely resting on defense, then why is everyone else so gung-ho about shoving a 3rd MVP down his gullet? It's not like his numbers are blowing away the other 2 contenders for the award. And those two guys clearly want it bad btw, playing through injuries this year.

Jokic has been playing through a wrist injury all year so your point is moot.

And if Jokic coasts to 25/12/10 in future seasons he's absolutely going to keep racking up MVPs as the most dominant and best player in the league.

[Exp0sed]

I mean yeah, if he wins a chip and decides to coast off of it for the rest of his career, then he shouldn't sniff another MVP. Where's the irony?

It does say a lot about a player when that is your expectation of him. Other greats didn't coast after winning - Lebron didn't, Giannis didn't, Kobe, Jordan, etc.

Again, if Jokic himself said he doesn't care about MVP, and his game shows it when he's constantly in third gear and doesn't mind putting up only 8 fga/game, then why is everyone else so gung-ho about shoving a 3rd MVP down his gullet? It's not like his numbers are blowing away the other 2 contenders for the award.

the irony lies in that in the 3 years he deserved it, his naysayers were claiming he doesn't deserve it because of lack of deep playoff success

If say, he'll get that playoff success this summer - their arguments will be invalidated but that's precisely when he'll stop playing like an MVP and turn to veteran coasting mode

that's the irony

Ok, that never really happened though. The past 2 years the award came down to Jokic vs Embiid, and neither guy has had playoff success, so how could that argument even be possible the last two years?

This is the first year this argument is being made, and it's made only because Jokic is going for a 3-peat. No player in NBA history has ever 3 peated as an MVP without a ring. This is no different from when Giannis had no real chance to get his 3rd MVP in a row because he kept getting bounced early. This is a standard that has always stood in place and Jokic would be a significant break from precedent if he were to win his 3rd.

There is no irony, it's straight up logical, precedent-based reasoning.

you are factually wrong
that same argument was made regarding his 2-peat as well - meaning: he shouldn't win 2 times MVP if he can't lead his team to the finals etc

look at last year's MVP race thread and you'll see it brought up a bunch

as for coming down to Jokic vs. Embiid - I didn't say it made sense or has merit, was only pointing out the argument