The ROTY/Rookie Discussion Thread, Part III

[EireannX]

As we all know, Simmons is quite close to surpassing Kidd's total from that season, and the Sixers are experiencing a sizable jump in wins, while the Jazz have actually regressed in their win totals.

I think Simmons is the clear winner but using the Jazz's win total is a bit disingenuous considering the off season roster turnover and Gobert's injury plagued season.

Gobert's injury - and the impact that it has had on the Jazz's overall record - just points out that he is the most valuable guy on the Jazz...and blows up this whole "Simmons has Embiid, while Mitchell is carrying the Jazz" narrative that the Mitchell fanboys roll out there (when they don't fall back on the lazy POINTZ!!! crap).

No, it proves their point. I just don't think you get the point because you don't want to.

Gobert is the Jazz most valuable player. Embiid is the Sixers. Embiid was playing, Gobert wasn't, which is relevant when comparing records. Since Gobert returned the Jazz have been ridiculously hot.

And Embiid leads the Sixers in scoring. Mitchell leads the Jazz in scoring, with or without Gobert. So he still carries the Jazz offense. Without Mitchell's contributions with Gobert out the Jazz probably wouldn't be in a position to sneak into the playoffs.

I don't get how you can logically try to say that Mitchell wasn't carrying the Jazz because their best player was out injured. I can't comprehend how you see injured Gobert as contributing something at that time?

[bebopdeluxe]

I think Simmons is the clear winner but using the Jazz's win total is a bit disingenuous considering the off season roster turnover and Gobert's injury plagued season.

Gobert's injury - and the impact that it has had on the Jazz's overall record - just points out that he is the most valuable guy on the Jazz...and blows up this whole "Simmons has Embiid, while Mitchell is carrying the Jazz" narrative that the Mitchell fanboys roll out there (when they don't fall back on the lazy POINTZ!!! crap).

No, it proves their point. I just don't think you get the point because you don't want to.

Gobert is the Jazz most valuable player. Embiid is the Sixers. Embiid was playing, Gobert wasn't, which is relevant when comparing records. Since Gobert returned the Jazz have been ridiculously hot.

And Embiid leads the Sixers in scoring. Mitchell leads the Jazz in scoring, with or without Gobert. So he still carries the Jazz offense. Without Mitchell's contributions with Gobert out the Jazz probably wouldn't be in a position to sneak into the playoffs.

I don't get how you can logically try to say that Mitchell wasn't carrying the Jazz because their best player was out injured. I can't comprehend how you see injured Gobert as contributing something at that time?

Mitchell was "carrying" the Jazz to a 4-11 record during Gobert's most recent stretch of missed games. Color me impressed.

Frankly I do not care about each team's relative records. I don't even understand what you are saying here. My primary point is that Mitchell fans say that Simmons has Embiid to carry the scoring load, while Mitchell has to be the team's offensive bellcow. This, IMO, is a weak-sauce argument on two levels: 1) as you pointed out, Gobert is the MVP for the Jazz, and regardless of Mitchell's heroics, the Jazz struggled during Gobert's last injury; and 2) you act as if POINTZ!!! is the only thing that can "carry" a team (which really is the only area where Mitchell leads the Jazz, as according to most of the traditional analytical metrics, he is not the leader in many of those categories, despite having the highest usage %).

Simmons leads the Sixers in virtually every meaningful analytical stat...as well as SMOKING Mitchell in most of them as well. Obviously that does not matter to you because POINTZ!!! and Mitchell leading the Jazz to a lusty 4-11 record during Gobert's last absence.

[mtron929]

Mitchell is putting up good numbers for a rookie. Simmons is putting up great numbers period that rivals some of Jason Kidd's best years. I am not sure how it is close, and saying that it is not close does not imply that one is disrespecting Mitchell. See below.

A. I think Jimmy Butler should receive MVP consideration.
B. Jimmy Butler is a great player but there is no way he should be the MVP of the league.
A. Why are you disrespecting Jimmy Butler?

[deflated]

Mitchell is not even in the same stratosphere as Simmons in terms of potential and skills. Every GM in the nba would pick simmons over mitchell and its not even close.

If the 28 GM's other than the Sixers or Jazz were asked who would they add to their team - Simmons or Mitchell - how many would choose Mitchell over Simmons?

I believe the answer to that question would be ZERO.

Well according to this article (https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/3/5/17079390/draft-ben-simmons-brandon-ingram-dangelo-russell-emmanuel-mudiay-stanley-johnson-justise-winslow) there are still GM's that prefer Ingram to Simmons. I'd take Mitchell over Ingram every day of the week so zero may be overstating it.

(Anyone got any ideas which GMs would be still be on Team Ingram? That's fair cause to be fired)

[EireannX]

Mitchell was "carrying" the Jazz to a 4-11 record during Gobert's most recent stretch of missed games. Color me impressed.

Frankly I do not care about each team's relative records.

This is where I talk about your logic being broken. Either you care about the record and need to be impressed or you don't. But you like to care about the record and be 'unimpressed' when you can score points, but not care about the record when you don't have a point.

I don't even understand what you are saying here. My primary point is that Mitchell fans say that Simmons has Embiid to carry the scoring load, while Mitchell has to be the team's offensive bellcow. This, IMO, is a weak-sauce argument on two levels: 1) as you pointed out, Gobert is the MVP for the Jazz, and regardless of Mitchell's heroics, the Jazz struggled during Gobert's last injury;

So you start with yoir point bring Mitchell carries the scoring load and try to refute it with Gobert being the MVP. Which doesn't change who is carrying the scoring load one whit. And then you go back to record, which apparently you don't care about and still can't accept the Mitchell still carries the scoring load for his team and Embiid for his. MVPs and records don't alter those facts.

2) you act as if POINTZ!!! is the only thing that can "carry" a team (which really is the only area where Mitchell leads the Jazz, as according to most of the traditional analytical metrics, he is not the leader in many of those categories, despite having the highest usage %).

I don't believe I made any of those claims. Those are your strawmen. Other things matter. But all those other things don't refute Mitchell being the #1 scoring option on his team. And that to win you do need to score points regardless of the hystrionics you apply.

Simmons leads the Sixers in virtually every meaningful analytical stat...as well as SMOKING Mitchell in most of them as well. Obviously that does not matter to you because POINTZ!!! and Mitchell leading the Jazz to a lusty 4-11 record during Gobert's last absence.

That's sweet. Still doesn't make Mitchell not the #1 option on his team or carry his team offensively.

What mattered yo me was your broken logic in the first post you made. None of your new tirades fixes your original broken logic. I don't have an issue with Simmons being great. I don't have an issue with his defence or advanced metrics. I don't equate dragging him down with pointing out Mitchell's successes. The two aren't intrinsically linked in my mind so Simmons achievements are irrelevant when considering whether Mitchell carries his teams offence or is their #1 option.

Edit: sorry about all the reediting, the stupid editor dropped half the quoted text

[PimpHandStrong]

Jazz fan.

It's Simmons. 100%, no contest.

With that said, Mitchell is having a great (ROY-worthy) rookie season.

[PurpleGreenGold]

Mitchell was "carrying" the Jazz to a 4-11 record during Gobert's most recent stretch of missed games. Color me impressed.

Frankly I do not care about each team's relative records.

This is where I talk about your logic being broken. Either you care about the record and need to be impressed or you don't. But you like to care about the record and be 'unimpressed' when you can score points, but not care about the record when you don't have a point.

I don't even understand what you are saying here. My primary point is that Mitchell fans say that Simmons has Embiid to carry the scoring load, while Mitchell has to be the team's offensive bellcow. This, IMO, is a weak-sauce argument on two levels: 1) as you pointed out, Gobert is the MVP for the Jazz, and regardless of Mitchell's heroics, the Jazz struggled during Gobert's last injury;

So you start with yoir point bring Mitchell carries the scoring load and try to refute it with Gobert being the MVP. Which doesn't change who is carrying the scoring load one whit. And then you go back to record, which apparently you don't care about and still can't accept the Mitchell still carries the scoring load for his team and Embiid for his. MVPs and records don't alter those facts.

2) you act as if POINTZ!!! is the only thing that can "carry" a team (which really is the only area where Mitchell leads the Jazz, as according to most of the traditional analytical metrics, he is not the leader in many of those categories, despite having the highest usage %).

I don't believe I made any of those claims. Those are your strawmen. Other things matter. But all those other things don't refute Mitchell being the #1 scoring option on his team. And that to win you do need to score points regardless of the hystrionics you apply.

Simmons leads the Sixers in virtually every meaningful analytical stat...as well as SMOKING Mitchell in most of them as well. Obviously that does not matter to you because POINTZ!!! and Mitchell leading the Jazz to a lusty 4-11 record during Gobert's last absence.

That's sweet. Still doesn't make Mitchell not the #1 option on his team or carry his team offensively.

What mattered yo me was your broken logic in the first post you made. None of your new tirades fixes your original broken logic. I don't have an issue with Simmons being great. I don't have an issue with his defence or advanced metrics. I don't equate dragging him down with pointing out Mitchell's successes. The two aren't intrinsically linked in my mind so Simmons achievements are irrelevant when considering whether Mitchell carries his teams offence or is their #1 option.

Edit: sorry about all the reediting, the stupid editor dropped half the quoted text

Thank you for calling out BBDluxe's warped view of what he does and does not care about. There are 83 pages on this thread, and I'd guess on probably 65 of them, BBDlux'e is laser focused on how much he doesn't care about who wins the ROTY or doesn't care about who has the better record or doesn't care about who scores more points. Well logic would tell me that if you really didn't care so much about these things, WHY DO YOU CONSTANTLY TALK ABOUT THEM!!

We get it, you're one of those tear down one guy to make your guy look good types. I'm a Jazz fan, and I'd probably vote for Simmons, but your sheer bewilderment that someone could actually think that Mitchell is not worthy for the award is amazing. There are multiple players, sportswriters, coaches, GM's who have hinted that they think he should win. So please, continue to make your incessant case, but please stop saying how much you don't care, because obviously you do...very much.

[ProcessDoctor]

Is this still even a discussion?

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Ben+Simmons&player_id1_select=Ben+Simmons&y1=2018&player_id1=simmobe01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Donovan+Mitchell&player_id2_select=Donovan+Mitchell&y2=2018&player_id2=mitchdo01&idx=players

[theo42]

Jazz fan.

It's Simmons. 100%, no contest.

With that said, Mitchell is having a great (ROY-worthy) rookie season.

I'm still fine with Co-ROY.

[Stonk]

Simmons generates more points per game for his team than Mitchell

[bebopdeluxe]

Jazz fan.

It's Simmons. 100%, no contest.

With that said, Mitchell is having a great (ROY-worthy) rookie season.

Absolutely. Kid is a stud. He, actually, is the one piece we are missing.

(get well, Markelle)

[vossy_3]

I’m a Sixers fan and would probably argue that Gobert has been better then Embiid recently.

Also you can see why teams are **** for a long time when some execs still taking Ingram over Simmons.

Both Mitchell and Simmons are much better prospects then Ingram.

[LakersSoul]

Lakers' KUZMA is back!!

20 points and 10 rebounds in the 4th quarter!

[LakersSoul]

I hear so many fans talk about Isaac.
Was looking forward to see what the fuss is all about.
I thought Isaac was going to be more like BAM but he is bad today.

5 fouls, 2 points, 2 rebs. Ouch!!

[PLO]

I hear so many fans talk about Isaac.
Was looking forward to see what the fuss is all about.
I thought Isaac was going to be more like BAM but he is bad today.

5 fouls, 2 points, 2 rebs. Ouch!!

He's been injured most of the season and he's pretty much a "project" player anyway, his upside is a lot higher than someone like Kuzma's, as impressive as the latter has been this season. I wouldn't be judging Isaac on the back of one game given he's only into game 4 of his most consistent run of games since Summer League.

[Cappy_Smurf]

Mitchell has as many 20 point games this season as the next 2 rookies combined.

Mitchell - 33

Simmons and Kuzma - 33

[sixerhp3]

Mitchell has as many 20 point games this season as the next 2 rookies combined.

Mitchell - 33

Simmons and Kuzma - 33

The thing is, Simmons could score 4 more ppg and have 20 point games if he wanted to. He rarely forces things and will get you 8+ assists, but when he gets aggressive he can't be stopped going to the rim.

He plays within the Sixers offense for the most part since he has Embiid and Saric to share the scoring load. And he will give you elite defense. His only hole right now is the jumper, but even without it he's putting up Magic Johnson type numbers. He's on another level.

[cl2117]

Mitchell is putting up good numbers for a rookie. Simmons is putting up great numbers period that rivals some of Jason Kidd's best years. I am not sure how it is close, and saying that it is not close does not imply that one is disrespecting Mitchell. See below.

A. I think Jimmy Butler should receive MVP consideration.
B. Jimmy Butler is a great player but there is no way he should be the MVP of the league.
A. Why are you disrespecting Jimmy Butler?

I'm of a similar mind, but where I have a problem is where guy B feels the need to denigrate Jimmy Butler in order to make his point instead of pointing to why the a guy like Harden should actually be MVP.

There are way too many people who feel the need to downplay Donovan Mitchell's outstanding year in order to pump up Simmons' tires, which is just absolutely unnecessary given the year Ben is having. I think the fact that you've got really annoying posters trying to frame any argument in Mitchell's favor as basically boiling down to "pointzzz" it creates a more defensive pro-Mitchell group (it's similar to how guys at the start of the year tried to downplay Simmons because he doesn't have a jumper, but just on a larger scale).

I think Ben started to pull away a while ago and I think the ancillary things that Mitchell needed to have happen to bolster his case for ROTY just haven't come through (namely a couple more 40 point games and the Jazz competing for a relatively high seed like the Pels). That being said I still think Mitchell should be in the conversation. I don't mind if people don't think that he should win and even that it shouldn't be close, but he's definitely done enough the conversation and there's no need to downplay him just to hype Simmons.

[LordCovington33]

Jazz fan.

It's Simmons. 100%, no contest.

With that said, Mitchell is having a great (ROY-worthy) rookie season.

One bookie has the odds at:
Simmons 1-2
Mitchell 2-1
Tatum 40-1

A two-horse race. In short, if you put $2 on Simmons and he wins, you will make a $1 profit. For Mitchell, if you bet $2, you will make a $4 profit. For Tatum, who is sitting in third, if you bet $2, you will make an $80 profit.

[SkyHookFTW]

Jazz fan.

It's Simmons. 100%, no contest.

With that said, Mitchell is having a great (ROY-worthy) rookie season.

One bookie has the odds at:
Simmons 1-2
Mitchell 2-1
Tatum 40-1

A two-horse race. In short, if you put $2 on Simmons and he wins, you will make a $1 profit. For Mitchell, if you bet $2, you will make a $4 profit. For Tatum, who is sitting in third, if you bet $2, you will make an $80 profit.

To be truthful, if you bet $2 on Tatum, you've lost $2.