2022-23 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt.1)

[eyeatoma]

Also, can we stop touting Giannis as the MVP favorite as well. They are getting eviscerated by the Cavs right now.

Lol really dude he had 45-14 the next buck was at 14 if the others played normal including jrue the bucks easily win this gm.

Giannis has had plenty of games where he's went off and the team loses in his career.

[KGtabake]

Also, can we stop touting Giannis as the MVP favorite as well. They are getting eviscerated by the Cavs right now.

He had a 45/14 on 17/27 shooting.
His team is #1 in the NBA.

Tatum's MVP shot fading as well. Getting destroyed right now...

He had 41 points on 13/25 shooting.
His team is #2 in the NBA one game behind the Bucks.

Are you high or something?

[CharityStripe34]

Tatum's MVP shot fading as well. Getting destroyed right now...

Ok, Skip Bayless LOL. This may come as a shock but even the best teams lose games and have letdowns. So if the Celtics and Bucks win their next game in dominating fashion, is their "MVP shot" back?

[Mickey8]

Jokic is amazing, but we also are in an age where advanced stats being over prioritized is a problem. Jokic is the 29th in the league in Defensive win shares, but somehow he's 1st in DPBM?

Meanwhile, Embiid is 3rd in DPBM this year and 11th in defensive win shares.

Defense advance stats also seems to highly prioritise rebounding, which Jokic is a demon on. Also, because Jokic is an average to slightly above average defender I'm guessing his his DPBM is so high because everyone is so damn bad. That's basically, the less **** defensive player rising to the top. It's not saying he's this elite defender.

For Jokic to win the 3rd MVP, IMO he needed to have won a title. I can't see a player winning MVP 3 years in a row, with the way others are playing. The farthest Jokic has gotten is the WCF. He hasn't even made an NBA finals. Every 3 time MVP has won a title. Last year's MVP should have been Embiid's, and if Embiid were healthy he would have won it 2 years ago as well.

The bigger problem for Embiid has been injuries, not that he's around when Jokic is. Advanced stats are a fad, that will fade like other things in the NBA have as well...

Haha no, more knowledge isn’t going to fade. Advanced metrics is just that, more knowledge. And again it’s not just one thing that backs this up for Jokic.

He is putting up ridiculous raw stats
His team is drastically better when he is on the court compared to when he’s off
His team is currently a 1 seed, even though when you look at the roster they have no reason to be up that high except for Jokic

Guess what it’s not shocking when you look at all of those things, he just also happens to have ridiculous advanced metrics.

Saying advanced metrics are a fad and will fade away is not the hill to die on to try and say the player you’re a fan of is better. Maybe just maybe it might be time to realize you might have a slight bias in this.

I definitely am biased. Not denying that. I also don't think the chasm the advanced stats show is indicative of the actual gap between Embiid and Jokic. The advanced stats are so lopsided for Jokic because he is so much better on that team. Everyone else basically sucks. He's incredible, but put him on a team where he's not the only star, and he won't have numbers nearly as impressive.

Jokic on the Grizzlies instead of Ja, the Warriors instead of Draymond, the Pelicans instead of Zion, Celtics instead of Tatum? Not nearly as good.

Jokic in Philly instead of Embiid? Good luck with that, Embiid makes the team have a top 5 defense. The Nuggets are currently number 28 in defense.

He would have gotten at least 10 extra points a game off the pick and roll game with Harden who is a very good passer. Stop defending Embiid by crapping hypotheticals on Jokic. Embiid has a green light to take every shot on that Philadelphia team, he's not some victim there. Jokic has the better team record than Embiid even though Embiid is playing on much better team. When Embiid was injured Sixers team was still winning, when Jokic was out, Denver wasn't able to beat Knicks at home on the Knicks back to back.

[CharityStripe34]

Also, can we stop touting Giannis as the MVP favorite as well. They are getting eviscerated by the Cavs right now.

He had a 45/14 on 17/27 shooting.
His team is #1 in the NBA.

Tatum's MVP shot fading as well. Getting destroyed right now...

He had 41 points on 13/25 shooting.
His team is #2 in the NBA one game behind the Bucks.

Are you high or something?

He's keeping a play-by-play of MVP candidates

[eyeatoma]

Also, can we stop touting Giannis as the MVP favorite as well. They are getting eviscerated by the Cavs right now.

He had a 45/14 on 17/27 shooting.
His team is #1 in the NBA.

Tatum's MVP shot fading as well. Getting destroyed right now...

He had 41 points on 13/25 shooting.
His team is #2 in the NBA one game behind the Bucks.

Are you high or something?

He's keeping a play-by-play of MVP candidates

Both players were not great the last 2 weeks or so. Celtics are 4-6 in the last 10.

[AleksandarN]

He had a 45/14 on 17/27 shooting.
His team is #1 in the NBA.



He had 41 points on 13/25 shooting.
His team is #2 in the NBA one game behind the Bucks.

Are you high or something?

He's keeping a play-by-play of MVP candidates

Both players were not great the last 2 weeks or so. Celtics are 4-6 in the last 10.

What was the 76ers record the first 20 games this season?

[eyeatoma]

Tatum's MVP shot fading as well. Getting destroyed right now...

Ok, Skip Bayless LOL. This may come as a shock but even the best teams lose games and have letdowns. So if the Celtics and Bucks win their next game in dominating fashion, is their "MVP shot" back?

They are 4-6 in the last 10.

Really leading that team I see...

[eyeatoma]

Haha no, more knowledge isn’t going to fade. Advanced metrics is just that, more knowledge. And again it’s not just one thing that backs this up for Jokic.

He is putting up ridiculous raw stats
His team is drastically better when he is on the court compared to when he’s off
His team is currently a 1 seed, even though when you look at the roster they have no reason to be up that high except for Jokic

Guess what it’s not shocking when you look at all of those things, he just also happens to have ridiculous advanced metrics.

Saying advanced metrics are a fad and will fade away is not the hill to die on to try and say the player you’re a fan of is better. Maybe just maybe it might be time to realize you might have a slight bias in this.

I definitely am biased. Not denying that. I also don't think the chasm the advanced stats show is indicative of the actual gap between Embiid and Jokic. The advanced stats are so lopsided for Jokic because he is so much better on that team. Everyone else basically sucks. He's incredible, but put him on a team where he's not the only star, and he won't have numbers nearly as impressive.

Jokic on the Grizzlies instead of Ja, the Warriors instead of Draymond, the Pelicans instead of Zion, Celtics instead of Tatum? Not nearly as good.

Jokic in Philly instead of Embiid? Good luck with that, Embiid makes the team have a top 5 defense. The Nuggets are currently number 28 in defense.

He would have gotten at least 10 extra points a game off the pick and roll game with Harden who is a very good passer. Stop defending Embiid by crapping hypotheticals on Jokic. Embiid has a green light to take every shot on that Philadelphia team, he's not some victim there. Jokic has the better team record than Embiid even though Embiid is playing on much better team. When Embiid was injured Sixers team was still winning, when Jokic was out, Denver wasn't able to beat Knicks at home on the Knicks back to back.

Harden and Jokic wouldn't be a good fit. Both need the ball in their hands. Also, they would have a historically bad defense. But okay, I'm defending Embiid. That's common sense lol.

[CharityStripe34]

He had a 45/14 on 17/27 shooting.
His team is #1 in the NBA.



He had 41 points on 13/25 shooting.
His team is #2 in the NBA one game behind the Bucks.

Are you high or something?

He's keeping a play-by-play of MVP candidates

Both players were not great the last 2 weeks or so. Celtics are 4-6 in the last 10.

Your list for potential MVP winners must fluctuate every 20 hours.

[Statlanta]

Curry's MVP narrative is rising every game. Too bad he won't play enough games to get the minimum impact on the season to win the award.

[rocketsfan100]

Big movers for MVP

Jokic
Durant
Mitchell

Fell back

Luka
Giannis
Tatum


Right now you have to have Jokic is back in front

[Packbuckman]

Also, can we stop touting Giannis as the MVP favorite as well. They are getting eviscerated by the Cavs right now.

Lol really dude he had 45-14 the next buck was at 14 if the others played normal including jrue the bucks easily win this gm.

Giannis has had plenty of games where he's went off and the team loses in his career.

Really wow so enlightening you can say that about any player ever dam Jordan had 63 but the rest of the team sucked so they lost but does that make the player playing great a worse player especially when they are playing a good team at their home who we beat twice already.

[eyeatoma]

Lol really dude he had 45-14 the next buck was at 14 if the others played normal including jrue the bucks easily win this gm.

Giannis has had plenty of games where he's went off and the team loses in his career.

Really wow so enlightening you can say that about any player ever dam Jordan had 63 but the rest of the team sucked so they lost but does that make the player playing great a worse player especially when they are playing a good team at their home who we beat twice already.

Jordan needed a better team to win MVP. They weren't handing MVPs to 6th seeds. Thanks for proving my point.

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[CharityStripe34]

Giannis has had plenty of games where he's went off and the team loses in his career.

Really wow so enlightening you can say that about any player ever dam Jordan had 63 but the rest of the team sucked so they lost but does that make the player playing great a worse player especially when they are playing a good team at their home who we beat twice already.

Jordan needed a better yeah to win MVP. They weren't handing MVPs to 6th seeds. Thanks for proving my point.

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Milwaukee and Boston are first and second in the East.

[eyeatoma]

Really wow so enlightening you can say that about any player ever dam Jordan had 63 but the rest of the team sucked so they lost but does that make the player playing great a worse player especially when they are playing a good team at their home who we beat twice already.

Jordan needed a better yeah to win MVP. They weren't handing MVPs to 6th seeds. Thanks for proving my point.

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Milwaukee and Boston are first and second in the East.

Yup and Boston will drop further soon. Bucks will be top 2. Problem is Giannis is get less efficient this year. He's turned it around the last few games but they need another big 5 to 10 game win streak for him to get back to MVP contention. His defense is not what it was last year either.

Tatum is producing like last year now. Elite but not MVP level.

Even Embiid has leveled out the last 3 games but Sixers are still winning.

Right now imo it's Embiid,Jokic, Tatum, Giannis, Luka. Luka has really fallen off too.

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[Cubbies2120]

Read on Twitter

Jokic has played in 94.5% of his games since the start of 2021.

Wonder how insane his advanced stats would be if he had the luxury of sitting out B2B’s, or missing an extra 10% of games like some other MVP candidates…the extra rest would only help I assume.

[Exp0sed]

Jordan needed a better yeah to win MVP. They weren't handing MVPs to 6th seeds. Thanks for proving my point.

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Milwaukee and Boston are first and second in the East.

Yup and Boston will drop further soon. Bucks will be top 2. Problem is Giannis is get less efficient this year. He's turned it around the last few games but they need another big 5 to 10 game win streak for him to get back to MVP contention. His defense is not what it was last year either.

Tatum is producing like last year now. Elite but not MVP level.

Even Embiid has leveled out the last 3 games but Sixers are still winning.

Right now imo it's Embiid,Jokic, Tatum, Giannis, Luka. Luka has really fallen off too.

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Embiid has played in 13 philly wins


here's the thing: Harden and Maxey would be the best players after Jokic in his current Nuggets team (Harden would be the 2nd best by a landslide)

Even a guy like Melton is better then Brown\KCP etc.

Harris and AG are about a wash but if the roles were reveresed - AG would be completely marginalized by Embiid and AG is looking like an all-star for the sole reason on playing alongside Jokic

Despite the huge disparity in rosters, despite playing in more games (and more wins when Jokic plays), despite being considerably better than Embiid this season (and every season b4 it), despite having a better team record and seeding - u still have Embiid over Jokic? that's mindboggling

if they "weren't handing out MVP's to 6th seeds" it stands to reason that you put team record as critical prerequsite, no?

If i disregard the outliers (WB etc.), MVP has traditionally gone to the 1st and 2nd seed (for the most part)

can we agree that Embiid isn't even in the conversation until the Sixers have the 2nd best record?
I mean the best scorer ever AND the best Center AND DPOY can't get his team to the 2nd seed despite playing along time all-stars, ATG's and great role players?

that sounds weird - something doesn't add up

In 87/88, 24 yo Jordan had a god like season (that's the 35 ppg season) where he won MVP despite the Bulls finishing just 50-32 which was tied for 3rd/4th in the East and 7th/8th overall

all he was playing with was 22 year old Horace Grant and Pippen who weren't very good (yet), Oakley and Paxon

in fact Jordan had a BPM of about 13 with no other Bull even posting a positive mark

tell me more about how Jordan needed a "better team" to win MVP...

that's propestrous

Jokic btw is also at 12.1 BPM, he had 13.7 (!!) last season and had 12.1 in his first MVP season
last season he was the only Nugget to have a positive mark and this season only AG has about 2.2 BPM and anyone who watched the games, can tell it would have looked very different for him without Jokic as he is the main beneficiary of Jokic's tremendous and historic passing ability (and gravity)

p.s Embiid is at an impressive 8.7 Bpm (tho i'd imagine that number would be lower if he had to play all the games, back to back etc.)

that's impressive and he's certainly a great and very impactful player but..get real

he is aided btw (at least according to BPM which is obviously a very limited and flawed stat and blah blah all the possible caveats) by Harden with 4.2 (which is an basically an all-star mark), Harris with 2.0, Melton with 1.6 and Maxey with 0.6

that's 4 more positive players (including a star in Harden) than Jokic had last season and 3 more than he has this season (at least until MPJ can stay on the court) and like i said, Harris can be an All-star next to Jokic and AG would have been a scrub next to Embiid

my man, Embiid is shooting 52% from the field and his stacked team is 3rd in it's own division

give it a rest

[Exp0sed]

I think some ppl are just having a hard time accepting even the possibility, that a White guy that can't jump (at all), some1 on TNT or ESPN called him "The Big YMCA" which I think is hillarious and pretty spot on

some folks are just having hard time accepting that the Big YMCA has been playing a few years in GOAT level \ territory

It was def possible for Jordan (The GOAT) to earn an MVP while having a lower seed (or more accurately: record because of divisions etc.) because it was very obvious he was the best and also most valuble player to his team

yes, that doesn't usually happen because most players aren't on the goat tier

it happened to Lebron as well in that first Cavs teams

in 2007/8, the Cavs had just 45 wins
He was the best invidual player and Kobe never made sense, KG was better as well etc
I'm betting with a few more team wins (45 is a bit on a low side) he might have gotten that MVP as well

he was robbed a few more times as well, but we all know that

it's a thing with goat-tier players, some of whom were never in a such a situations and had better teams around them but it has happened ofc and we can learn from that

Jokic is a goat-tier player
this whole Jokic debate can be boiled down to just that - folks think that he is in that tier and folks that are having a hard time accepting the absurd reality in which the Big YMCA is on that tier

not the Goat, but certainly in that range of influence, impact and dominance
and because it's pretty plain to see, at this point I wouldn't be shocked if he got another but I suspect that Denver's final record won't be all that impressive (incredibly easy schedule , not playing that well etc.) and voter fatigue would generate some narrative for another candidate whose team would be doing better

[PennSports]

I will say this when it comes to Embiid, he got screwed when he was born haha. This is kind of like Clyde Drexler getting screwed over he came in the league at the same time as MJ. If MJ never came along, Clyde most likely wouldve been viewed as the best 2 guard from the mid 80s to mid 90s.

Same for Embiid, if it wasnt for Jokic, Embiid would be viewed as this dominant multi MVP best big man in the NBA. And I want to be clear, this isnt me taking a shot at Embiid, he is a legit multi MVP runner up and elite player. He just so happens to be playing when Jokic is and Jokic is just on the next tier. So Embiid is missing out on the 1st team All NBAs and MVP awards because Jokic is around.

Jokic is amazing, but we also are in an age where advanced stats being over prioritized is a problem. Jokic is the 29th in the league in Defensive win shares, but somehow he's 1st in DPBM?

Meanwhile, Embiid is 3rd in DPBM this year and 11th in defensive win shares.

Defense advance stats also seems to highly prioritise rebounding, which Jokic is a demon on. Also, because Jokic is an average to slightly above average defender I'm guessing his his DPBM is so high because everyone is so damn bad. That's basically, the less **** defensive player rising to the top. It's not saying he's this elite defender.

For Jokic to win the 3rd MVP, IMO he needed to have won a title. I can't see a player winning MVP 3 years in a row, with the way others are playing. The farthest Jokic has gotten is the WCF. He hasn't even made an NBA finals. Every 3 time MVP has won a title. Last year's MVP should have been Embiid's, and if Embiid were healthy he would have won it 2 years ago as well.

The bigger problem for Embiid has been injuries, not that he's around when Jokic is. Advanced stats are a fad, that will fade like other things in the NBA have as well...

Haha no, more knowledge isn’t going to fade. Advanced metrics is just that, more knowledge. And again it’s not just one thing that backs this up for Jokic. At this point you better be running away with it if you want that feather in your cap.

He is putting up ridiculous raw stats
His team is drastically better when he is on the court compared to when he’s off
His team is currently a 1 seed, even though when you look at the roster they have no reason to be up that high except for Jokic

Guess what it’s not shocking when you look at all of those things, he just also happens to have ridiculous advanced metrics.

Saying advanced metrics are a fad and will fade away is not the hill to die on to try and say the player you’re a fan of is better. Maybe just maybe it might be time to realize you might have a slight bias in this.

his team is a one seed and only half a game ahead of the hospital sixers (5th seed) and behind the nets (4th seed). It wasnt about seeding last year, it was about record. People just change the rules to fit their narrative