2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread

[PeptoKlepto]

Better than nothing does not make it good. And Westbrook is great, I have no problem with people saying he's been slightly better than Harden or vise versa, but it's Harden's MVP because of team success, which is because of Harden. People trying to belittle what Harden is doing because he's got better than talent when he's making that talent perform over their heads is asinine.

Interesting that you say that now, when most Rockets fans were livid Curry won the MVP over Harden, despite the fact hat Curry had better advanced stats across the board AND was the best player on a league-leading 67 win team.

Narratives change quickly, huh?

If you read the rest of the board you would see that I wasn't that fan and don't think that Harden should've won. But sure, all Rockets fans are the same. Assumptions are fun.

Never said I say it was you nor did I say all Rockets fans. Just pointing out a discrepancy in the logic that's been floating around.

[Shock Defeat]

Why though? Because there's no data available using eFG, so going off this seems better than nothing. And given Westbrook's ability to run an offense at the same level while having better overall plus/minus numbers, he's being dismissed as not as good a player, when in fact he's been just as good, and better since Harden started January. The only difference thus far is team success, which hands Harden the award.

Better than nothing does not make it good. And Westbrook is great, I have no problem with people saying he's been slightly better than Harden or vise versa, but it's Harden's MVP because of team success, which is because of Harden. People trying to belittle what Harden is doing because he's got better than talent when he's making that talent perform over their heads is asinine.

Interesting that you say that now, when most Rockets fans were livid Curry won the MVP over Harden, despite the fact hat Curry had better advanced stats across the board AND was the best player on a league-leading 67 win team.

Narratives change quickly, huh?

Well they can't give Curry the MVP over Harden one year because of team success and then 2 years later give Westbrook the MVP over Harden ignoring team success. Just be consistent. The voters in 2015 deemed team success the most important factor, prove it again this season.

[ken6199]

despite the fact hat Curry had better advanced stats across the board AND...

Curry leads:
ORtg, WS48, BPM, OBPM, VORP

Harden leads:
DRtg, WS (OWS & DWS), DBPM

despite it's not a fact.

[QRich3]

Gordon played like this in 2014-15.

And he played like a younger, fastest, higher usage version of this in LA too. Anderson's peak years were also in Orlando, not now, and there's a case to be made for Ariza having several better seasons than this. It's still remarkable that they are all playing well at the same time when it could seem their careers were trending the other way, but if anything, it's more of D'Antoni's merit for recognizing everyone's strengths than Harden magically making everyone better because of assists. And again, Harden deserves some merit, but not all of it, or close to it.

Gordon and Ariza are having the most efficient seasons from the floor (eFG%) of their entire careers. Anderson having his second most.

Well, that's what happens when you increase your 3PT attempt rate by 15%. Which is a direct product of the system, I don't know how that could be more clear. If you go by TS%, none of them is having career highs.

[PeptoKlepto]

Better than nothing does not make it good. And Westbrook is great, I have no problem with people saying he's been slightly better than Harden or vise versa, but it's Harden's MVP because of team success, which is because of Harden. People trying to belittle what Harden is doing because he's got better than talent when he's making that talent perform over their heads is asinine.

Interesting that you say that now, when most Rockets fans were livid Curry won the MVP over Harden, despite the fact hat Curry had better advanced stats across the board AND was the best player on a league-leading 67 win team.

Narratives change quickly, huh?

Well they can't give Curry the MVP over Harden one year because of team success and then 2 years later give Westbrook the MVP over Harden ignoring team success. Just be consistent. The voters in 2015 deemed team success the most important factor, prove it again this season.

Oh I agree. I think the MVP is Harden's to lose, but it's funny seeing this logic now w/ Rockets fans when back then they seemed to conveniently ignore that Warriors were a historically good 67 win team due largely to Curry.

[ken6199]

Better than nothing does not make it good. And Westbrook is great, I have no problem with people saying he's been slightly better than Harden or vise versa, but it's Harden's MVP because of team success, which is because of Harden. People trying to belittle what Harden is doing because he's got better than talent when he's making that talent perform over their heads is asinine.

Interesting that you say that now, when most Rockets fans were livid Curry won the MVP over Harden, despite the fact hat Curry had better advanced stats across the board AND was the best player on a league-leading 67 win team.

Narratives change quickly, huh?

Well they can't give Curry the MVP over Harden one year because of team success and then 2 years later give Westbrook the MVP over Harden ignoring team success. Just be consistent. The voters in 2015 deemed team success the most important factor, prove it again this season.

But, but, team success means 67W, producing a DPOY candidate, grooming a FMVP, making Klay a better shooter etc etc. 3rd in West conference is not team success, Gordon and Anderson were great shooters before joining Houston.

There is always ways to find a reason to back up a claim. The voters won't call it 'inconsistency', they call it 'case by case'.

[PeptoKlepto]

despite the fact hat Curry had better advanced stats across the board AND...

Curry leads:
ORtg, WS48, BPM, OBPM, VORP

Harden leads:
DRtg, WS (OWS & DWS), DBPM

despite it's not a fact.

WS is a garbage stat in this case, especially since you just noted that Curry had a better WS/48 rate.

Curry also had a better TS%, better assist rate, better steals rate and TOV%.

So yes, other than DRtg (by .1, btw), Curry had better advanced stats across the board.

Not sure how this is disputable.

[PeptoKlepto]

Interesting that you say that now, when most Rockets fans were livid Curry won the MVP over Harden, despite the fact hat Curry had better advanced stats across the board AND was the best player on a league-leading 67 win team.

Narratives change quickly, huh?

Well they can't give Curry the MVP over Harden one year because of team success and then 2 years later give Westbrook the MVP over Harden ignoring team success. Just be consistent. The voters in 2015 deemed team success the most important factor, prove it again this season.

But, but, team success means 67W, producing a DPOY candidate, grooming a FMVP, making Klay a better shooter etc etc. 3rd in West conference is not team success, Gordon and Anderson were great shooters before joining Houston.

There is always ways to find a reason to back up a claim. The voters won't call it 'inconsistency', they call it 'case by case'.

Interesting.

Why aren't you here listing all of the reasons why Westbrook has a worse team around him than Harden, so he should win MVP according to this logic, right?

And Curry was the machine and engine behind a 67-win team. If you think that Harden STILL should've won that MVP over him, then there's nothing to really argue here, but the bias and inconsistency in your logic is glaring.

[ken6199]

despite the fact hat Curry had better advanced stats across the board AND...

Curry leads:
ORtg, WS48, BPM, OBPM, VORP

Harden leads:
DRtg, WS (OWS & DWS), DBPM

despite it's not a fact.

WS is a garbage stat in this case, especially since you just noted that Curry had a better WS/48 rate.

Curry also had a better TS%, better assist rate, better steals rate and TOV%.

So yes, other than DRtg (by .01, btw), Curry had better advanced stats across the board.

Not sure how this is disputable.

So you conveniently mentioned that DRtg 0.1 difference, and left out the VORP 0.1 difference? Any others?

WS48, okay, you think a guy who plays 38 mpg gains pure advantage on win shares without sacrificing anything over a guy who consistently sits out 4th quarters? Efficiency? Or how about proving to have more durability?

I am not trying to go through advanced stats one by one with you. I simply pointed out that your statement of 'Curry beats Harden in advanced stats across the board' is not entirely true.

[ken6199]

Well they can't give Curry the MVP over Harden one year because of team success and then 2 years later give Westbrook the MVP over Harden ignoring team success. Just be consistent. The voters in 2015 deemed team success the most important factor, prove it again this season.

But, but, team success means 67W, producing a DPOY candidate, grooming a FMVP, making Klay a better shooter etc etc. 3rd in West conference is not team success, Gordon and Anderson were great shooters before joining Houston.

There is always ways to find a reason to back up a claim. The voters won't call it 'inconsistency', they call it 'case by case'.

Interesting.

Why aren't you here listing all of the reasons why Westbrook has a worse team around him than Harden, so he should win MVP according to this logic, right?

And Curry was the machine and engine behind a 67-win team. If you think that Harden STILL should've won that MVP over him, then there's nothing to really argue here, but the bias and inconsistency in your logic is glaring.

My stances has always been:
1. Harden has as strong a case as Curry in 14-15 MVP race. NOT that I think Harden should have won over Curry.
2. Harden vs Westbrook is a very similar situation as Curry vs Harden back in 14-15. If you use 'he made teammates better' narrative, be consistent.
3. I am totally fine with Westbrook winning the MVP this year EVEN at this point, WITH the reason of 'Westbrook had less to work with'.

Stop putting words into my mouth.

[PeptoKlepto]

Curry leads:
ORtg, WS48, BPM, OBPM, VORP

Harden leads:
DRtg, WS (OWS & DWS), DBPM

despite it's not a fact.

WS is a garbage stat in this case, especially since you just noted that Curry had a better WS/48 rate.

Curry also had a better TS%, better assist rate, better steals rate and TOV%.

So yes, other than DRtg (by .01, btw), Curry had better advanced stats across the board.

Not sure how this is disputable.

So you conveniently mentioned that DRtg 0.1 difference, and left out the VORP 0.1 difference? Any others?

WS48, okay, you think a guy who plays 38 mpg gains pure advantage on win shares without sacrificing anything over a guy who consistently sits out 4th quarters? Efficiency? Or how about proving to have more durability?

I am not trying to go through advanced stats one by one with you. I simply pointed out that your statement of 'Curry beats Harden in advanced stats across the board' is not entirely true.

You're right - I should've said that Curry had Harden beat out in the majority of advanced stats - combined w/ the fact that he had huge advantage in the 'team success' column that's being used in the Harden vs. Westbrook debate today.

My point is this: if you thought Harden should've won the MVP over Curry despite the fact that Curry was the driving force behind one of the best team seasons in NBA history, then you cannot make the 'team success' argument today in favor of Harden over Westbrook. Pick a method/logic and stick to it.

[PeptoKlepto]

But, but, team success means 67W, producing a DPOY candidate, grooming a FMVP, making Klay a better shooter etc etc. 3rd in West conference is not team success, Gordon and Anderson were great shooters before joining Houston.

There is always ways to find a reason to back up a claim. The voters won't call it 'inconsistency', they call it 'case by case'.

Interesting.

Why aren't you here listing all of the reasons why Westbrook has a worse team around him than Harden, so he should win MVP according to this logic, right?

And Curry was the machine and engine behind a 67-win team. If you think that Harden STILL should've won that MVP over him, then there's nothing to really argue here, but the bias and inconsistency in your logic is glaring.

My stances has always been:
1. Harden has as strong a case as Curry in 14-15 MVP race. NOT that I think Harden should have won over Curry.
2. Harden vs Westbrook is a very similar situation as Curry vs Harden back in 14-15. If you use 'he made teammates better' narrative, be consistent.
3. I am totally fine with Westbrook winning the MVP this year EVEN at this point, WITH the reason of 'Westbrook had less to work with'.

Stop putting words into my mouth.

That's fair.

And I wasn't putting words in your mouth - I was saying 'you' in a general sense.

[ken6199]

Interesting.

Why aren't you here listing all of the reasons why Westbrook has a worse team around him than Harden, so he should win MVP according to this logic, right?

And Curry was the machine and engine behind a 67-win team. If you think that Harden STILL should've won that MVP over him, then there's nothing to really argue here, but the bias and inconsistency in your logic is glaring.

My stances has always been:
1. Harden has as strong a case as Curry in 14-15 MVP race. NOT that I think Harden should have won over Curry.
2. Harden vs Westbrook is a very similar situation as Curry vs Harden back in 14-15. If you use 'he made teammates better' narrative, be consistent.
3. I am totally fine with Westbrook winning the MVP this year EVEN at this point, WITH the reason of 'Westbrook had less to work with'.

Stop putting words into my mouth.

That's fair.

And I wasn't putting words in your mouth - I was saying 'you' in a general sense.

I think we are actually applying the same criteria but towards our different views.

My point is this: if you thought Harden should've won the MVP over Curry despite the fact that Curry was the driving force behind one of the best team seasons in NBA history, then you cannot make the 'team success' argument today in favor of Harden over Westbrook. Pick a method/logic and stick to it.

Of course, and my method tells me we have two deserved winners both in 14-15 and 16-17. That's just me, but I am trying to be consistent (not an easy thing to do when Harden is involved in both races, to be honest).

[nbafan38]

I love Westbrook and am rooting for him to succeed but he's losing too many games against good teams to be mvp. The Thunder record against winning teams is not that good. I realize Westbrook doesn't have much help but great players elevate their team to at least some upsets.

[PeptoKlepto]

I love Westbrook and am rooting for him to succeed but he's losing too many games against good teams to be mvp. The Thunder record against winning teams is not very good. I realize Westbrook doesn't have much help but great players elevate their team to at least some upsets.

He has plenty of help. Stop. Adams, Kanter, Dipo, Payne, Roberson, Grant, Sabonis, Morrow, etc. are all decent to good players. People need to stop acting like he's playing with D-Leaguers.

[nbafan38]

I love Westbrook and am rooting for him to succeed but he's losing too many games against good teams to be mvp. The Thunder record against winning teams is not that good. I realize Westbrook doesn't have much help but great players elevate their team to at least some upsets.

Plenty is a stretch especially compared to the help players like Lebron and Durant have. Harden's roster may not be significantly better but does have better shooters. Westbrooks roster is not the worst in the nba but none of those players could really come close to carrying a team without him. Take him off the team and they are probably one of the worst teams in the west.

[ocelot17]

Well they can't give Curry the MVP over Harden one year because of team success and then 2 years later give Westbrook the MVP over Harden ignoring team success. Just be consistent. The voters in 2015 deemed team success the most important factor, prove it again this season.

But, but, team success means 67W, producing a DPOY candidate, grooming a FMVP, making Klay a better shooter etc etc. 3rd in West conference is not team success, Gordon and Anderson were great shooters before joining Houston.

There is always ways to find a reason to back up a claim. The voters won't call it 'inconsistency', they call it 'case by case'.

Interesting.

Why aren't you here listing all of the reasons why Westbrook has a worse team around him than Harden, so he should win MVP according to this logic, right?

And Curry was the machine and engine behind a 67-win team. If you think that Harden STILL should've won that MVP over him, then there's nothing to really argue here, but the bias and inconsistency in your logic is glaring.

You're forgetting that 2 years ago, harden carried his team to the 2nd seed in the west.

This season, rockets are in the 3rd seed, while Westbrooks team can't get move past the 7th seed.

When's the last time the MVP was given to a player in the 7th seed?

The fact is the media is biased against harden. How else do you explain him not even making an all NBA team last season, averaging 29 ppg, 7 rpg, 7.5 apg.

The same people that didn't vote harden for MVP or all NBA team, are the same people that will be voting again this year.

Bottom line is, the media has an agenda against harden and they will change the narrative however they see fit.

[PeptoKlepto]

But, but, team success means 67W, producing a DPOY candidate, grooming a FMVP, making Klay a better shooter etc etc. 3rd in West conference is not team success, Gordon and Anderson were great shooters before joining Houston.

There is always ways to find a reason to back up a claim. The voters won't call it 'inconsistency', they call it 'case by case'.

Interesting.

Why aren't you here listing all of the reasons why Westbrook has a worse team around him than Harden, so he should win MVP according to this logic, right?

And Curry was the machine and engine behind a 67-win team. If you think that Harden STILL should've won that MVP over him, then there's nothing to really argue here, but the bias and inconsistency in your logic is glaring.

You're forgetting that 2 years ago, harden carried his team to the 2nd seed in the west.

This season, rockets are in the 3rd seed, while Westbrooks team can't get move past the 7th seed.

When's the last time the MVP was given to a player in the 7th seed?

The fact is the media is biased against harden. How else do you explain him not even making an all NBA team last season, averaging 29 ppg, 7 rpg, 7.5 apg.

The same people that didn't vote harden for MVP or all NBA team, are the same people that will be voting again this year.

Bottom line is, the media has an agenda against harden and they will change the narrative however they see fit.

You're preaching to the choir. I think Harden is the MVP at this point and by a decent margin. He's been unbelievable. I'm just disputing some of the inconsistent logic being thrown around by some Rockets fans.

[bondom34]

But, but, team success means 67W, producing a DPOY candidate, grooming a FMVP, making Klay a better shooter etc etc. 3rd in West conference is not team success, Gordon and Anderson were great shooters before joining Houston.

There is always ways to find a reason to back up a claim. The voters won't call it 'inconsistency', they call it 'case by case'.

Interesting.

Why aren't you here listing all of the reasons why Westbrook has a worse team around him than Harden, so he should win MVP according to this logic, right?

And Curry was the machine and engine behind a 67-win team. If you think that Harden STILL should've won that MVP over him, then there's nothing to really argue here, but the bias and inconsistency in your logic is glaring.

You're forgetting that 2 years ago, harden carried his team to the 2nd seed in the west.

This season, rockets are in the 3rd seed, while Westbrooks team can't get move past the 7th seed.

When's the last time the MVP was given to a player in the 7th seed?

The fact is the media is biased against harden. How else do you explain him not even making an all NBA team last season, averaging 29 ppg, 7 rpg, 7.5 apg.

The same people that didn't vote harden for MVP or all NBA team, are the same people that will be voting again this year.

Bottom line is, the media has an agenda against harden and they will change the narrative however they see fit.

I showed a media poll like a week ago that had Harden as runaway MVP winner.

[ken6199]

...
Bottom line is, the media has an agenda against harden and they will change the narrative however they see fit.

In some way Harden has been an easy target for the media: goofy charisma, not playing defense, his style of play, Tmac-ish lazy body language on the court, out of the box comments off court ("cornerstones", "I should be the MVP", etc), his seemingly isolation from his teammates, the KK fiasco. he has the whole package, easy piece to write about to get more twitter followers and Istagram likes.

This season there are obvious changes across the field. He came into the training camp in great shape, plays lock down D when it matters the most, more vocal on the court, hardly any crazy comments, and most importantly - assisted a ton in an eye pleasing system. These are some long overdue changes for die hard fans like us. I don't think he is giving the media much excuse any more.