RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 2)

[Gregoire]

Is one World Cup truly that big of a deal to separate what were pretty equal careers up to that stage?

Or was the gap between Messi and Ronaldo already enormous before 2022?

It's subjective but you ask me it was never close. But it isn't even because of stats. Me personally i dont even have Cristiano #2 or #3

There are maybe 3 players who've made me laugh hysterically in disbelief whenever i watched them play.

1. R9 pre knee injury. I was a toddler back then but i remember first time watching him play was in WC finals 2002 when he scored 2 against germany coming off an injury where doctors said he had next to zero chance of ever playing again. It's what made me start playing football. I started watching R9 full games archives when he played in Barcelona and Inter pre knee injury. Absolute disbelief in watching this dude play football. We are talking a player who would embarass GOAT level defenders as if they were scrubs. For example Alessandro Nesta who faced both Cristiano and Messi when he was 38 and half dead more than held his own against them. But when he was 22 with Lazio facing R9 in the uefa cup finals he's more or less said he didn't have the skill level to top him. THATS HOW GOOD R9 WAS! **** Paolo Maldini who i consider the GOAT defender along with Baresi...Do you know what he used to say every time he faced R9? He went to his centerback teammate Desailly who himself is on that level when it comes to GOAT defender...He told Desailly dude im gonna need you to help me with this guy (R9)

Watch on YouTube

2. Zidane - If there ever was poetry in motion Zinedine Zidane is it. Watching this dude play you'd think he was painting a masterpiece all over the field. An absolute artist on the field. 1-2 steps ahead of everyone else. The bigger the game got the better he got. Touch-Technique-IQ-Madman all in one. What he did in 06 WC was the stuff of legends. Such a shame it ended with him headbutting Materazzi but thats Zidane the mad man. But what an absolute master at his craft.

3. Messi - I consider Messi the GOAT..But ONLY because R9 ruined his knees. What Messi has done in his career...I have no words the **** stuff this dude has done. AGAIN it's not about the stats for me. It's the way you play the game. Messi along with the other 2 is the only one that makes me laugh in disbelief whenever i watch him play. The stuff this dude does on the field is something that cant be explain with words but truly has to be felt. This is not to say Messi doesn't have stats. Messis stats are ridiculous video game numbers.

So yes whilst the people who love stats will bring up stats i had messi as the GOAT long before WC. The World cup win was just the tip of the iceberg used to finally shut people who had Cristiano over Messi up for good. It was never close. It wont ever be close.

It really says it all when people try to use Cristiano scoring in the saudi farmer league as some boost in his legacy. Funny considering the man himself said the league was a joke and then joins the same league.

Forgot peak Ronaldinho. Better than Zid for sure.

[Rubios]

When healthy, R9 was way better than both Messi and CR7.

Insane player that I got to enjoy at his peak playing for Barça before the first of his many knee injuries.

But no. Messi is just better at everything, even purely as a scorer.

Motivated Messi in an excellent team (2005-2010 and 2014-2015) was like a cheat code.


Are you big into football or what you'd call a "casual"?
No offense.
Me, being a Spaniard, have been watching tons of it since being a little kid. I grew up with most matches for free in regular TV.

R9 is legendary, top of the top of the crop, no doubt.
But I feel Messi not being flashy, barely using any spectacular technique, deceives many eyes.

Every ball touch from Messi is pure skill, he plays with the ball glued to his left foot. That's why he doesn't need bicycles or the magical stuff most players (and Brazilians specially) do constantly.
And don't get me wrong: O Fenómeno was not showing off, he was as effective as it gets.

[Rust_Cohle]

If that's the case, his paid media shills wouldn't need to bend over to create narratives and do anything they can to absolve him of blame when his teams lose.

The reason they do this is precisely because he hasn't surpassed MJ.

How else do you explain a marketing campaign that claims he's "Risen above winning?"

Who are the shills? Were you around to watch Jordan play?

If you think LeBron has shills, you'd think Jordan was the media.

You ever heard of Nick Wright? He got called out by Broussard for being a Klutch guy…. Sharpe got called out by that Molly (dont know her last name) for the same thing. Yea Bayless and SAS are Jordan guys but James has his people too.

And the goat thing will always be a debate. Jordan is the greatest ive ever seen but there will never be a consensus. This is water cooler talk lol.

Yeah, klutch have their hands everywhere for forcing the LeBron goat narrative. But it’s incredible how after 22 years he still can’t catch MJ.

[Rust_Cohle]

Because he's already surpassed him.

He's not trying to pass him at all.

Lol we are all bias in our views and there is no official goat list - unless the NBA announced one that i missed

Adam silver has MJ as the goat. That’s as close to an NBA announcement we will get

[Rubios]

Im surrounded with Barca fans that i know not one has ever uttered those words. And explain shrugged on a bad team. Because last season Messi played for Barca which would probably be considered a bad team he tallied 38 goals and 14 assists in every competition.

Messi was that so much better than anyone else that these numbers just fell naturally for him.
He scored like it was nothing and his football IQ, vision and touch for passing at least matched -if not surpassed- any midfielder ever.

Barça was mediocre at best back then, yes, but for FCB standards. Top 3 team in La Liga.

I'm talking the big matches against actual opposition in Champions, where Barça failed miserably in the most embarrasing ways for 6 straight years after winning in 2015.
And Messi did nothing every time the team blew up.

When Messi feels his team play nothing and doesn't believe/trust his coach, he doesn't even try to carry them.
He gets frustrated and walks around shaking his head.

[Evenacus]

What the hell is this?

First of all, different sports, different stories.
I give extra props to Ronaldo, in relation to Messi due to sheer talent disparity. Messi is by far more naturally talented player, but he has a lot to thank to his medicinal treatment. He was treated with HGH when he was younger, that makes his entire story a bit controversial for me.
On the other end Ronaldo made everything happen, as talented as he is, through determination and willpower. Think of him whatever you want, but he is a true example what hard work can do. Also, Ronaldo was successful in different environments which speaks of his versatility.

With Jordan and LeBron, the story is different. LeBron is far more naturally gifted player ( physique, maybe even higher BBIQ, but on par at the least). Where he lacks in comparison to Jordan is that psychological part where Jordan showed himself as an ultimate competitor and it seemed he could rise to any occasion.
LeBron changed teams a lot and played with more franchises but with limited success compared to what was expected of him.

I will not dwell into personalities of any of these players.
In my opinion the World Cup that Messi won was heavily influenced by FIFA and the organization of the tournament itself. It was a "perfect story".
This is my attempt at a comparison ofc, there are big difference between both sports themselves.

[MMyhre]

Messi and Ronaldo are LeBron and Steph, Jordan and LeBron are Maradona and Messi.

The last comparison doesn`t make sense, Maradona has 348 career goals, Messi has 858 career goals. Maradona was a showman and charismatic who had some great world cups, so he gets hyped higher than his actual production compared to Messi. His talent was outrageous though, but in terms of output/production and efficiency Messi is just superior in every way. So unless you think Jordan is better than LeBron despite having 510 less career goals that one doesnt work!

[Mavrelous]

Messi and Ronaldo are LeBron and Steph, Jordan and LeBron are Maradona and Messi.

The last comparison doesn`t make sense, Maradona has 348 career goals, Messi has 858 career goals. Maradona was a showman and charismatic who had some great world cups, so he gets hyped higher than his actual production compared to Messi. His talent was outrageous though, but in terms of output/production and efficiency Messi is just superior in every way. So unless you think Jordan is better than LeBron despite having 510 less career goals that one doesnt work!

It's actually perfect comparison, one played mich less than the other because of off court stuff, the other played a lot more, just like MJ and LeBron.

[MMyhre]

When healthy, R9 was way better than both Messi and CR7.

Yeah, call me when R9 had scored a goal like this

Watch on YouTube

He didn`t, he couldn`t he just wasnt as good as Messi. Not a better scorer, not a better playmaker, not a better dribbler. R9 had potential to be a GOAT candidate, but he never got to a level like this of Messi, its like a R9 myth that I have seen spreading recently. If anything I think Ronaldinho had higher potential than him again, but both of them were brazilian party animals so sadly we did not see peaks like that of Messi or CR7 who are the 2 clearly best players of all time.

[MMyhre]

Also I voted Messi over Cristiano, as Jordan and LeBron are 50/50 and LeBrons longevity is hard to deny.

[aliasxn]

Messi and Ronaldo are pretty close imo. World Cup puts Messi ahead, but then again Argentina is a whole tier above Portugal as a team. Ronaldo's problem is that he was born a decade too late. If he could've had the chance to play in 3 world cups with Deco and Figo all in their primes, Portugal wins at least one.

[therealbig3]

LeBron is better than Jordan. The question makes an assumption that not everyone agrees with.

I’m personally of the opinion that not only is LeBron better, that there is actually no good argument for Jordan in that comparison. LeBron peaked just as high if not higher, and he did it for a lot longer.

[therealbig3]

Yes, LeBron is better than Jordan, so there is gap between them, but I don't follow soccer closely enough to answer in the Poll.

No one that watched both of their careers closely would ever say Lebron is better than Michael Jordan.

And Bron knew that was an impossibility the moment he started forming super teams in the weakest era of the eastern conference.

Nearly every year was a cakewalk to the finals in the east. Look what happened when he moved west.

I watched both of their careers closely and pick LeBron. So your whole point is trash.

This is the lamest counter argument to anyone that picks LeBron: well nobody that watched both would pick LeBron!

Um, actually yeah, plenty of people do. Do you guys honestly think LeBron fans haven’t watched Jordan? And haven’t actually watched more objectively than Jordan fans EVER watched LeBron?

[Coach Carter]

R9 at Inter was the best footballer I've ever witnessed and I've been watching since 94. Serie A was his playground and this was at a time when it was considered by many as the best league in the world. As people have already mentioned, the likes of Maldini, Nesta and Thuram couldn't defend him. I remember the 98 world cup, a lot of star players and good cohesive teams, which is something you don't get nowadays with an increase in player movement. Out of all the stars, he was the dude every fan wanted to see.

The quickest player I've seen with the ball, too technical and fast for his own good just like d rose with his athleticism. He had intelligence and positional IQ, he was an excellent and composed finisher and he was strong, thus wasn't easily pushed off the ball. For those saying that he was just another flashy Brazilian, my response would be that every dribble of his had purpose, he would shift defenders and create space. Compare this to Cristiano in the early years at Sporting and Man utd, where a lot of his stepovers would go to waste. I think both Messi and Cristiano are better finishers but it didn't matter because R9 would often dribble past the goalkeeper and pass into an open net.

I think Cristiano is one of the best poaches we've seen and this requires high intelligence and positional sense. An elite athlete and hardest of workers, discipline very kobe like. He worked to get to that level as opposed to R9 who was a natural talent and lazy in training, if I may add.

Messi had that growth hormone deficiency and underwent treatment, so from the start he wasn't the pick of the litter. Certainly didn't have the alien genetics of R9, who was both fast and strong. R9 for me was also better on the ball. I do hold Messi in higher regard to Cristiano as he is more naturally gifted. He played in one of the best sides we've seen. That Barca side basically won the World Cup in 2010 (7/11 starters played for Barca). With Argentina, it's hard to forget all the failures. I know y'all fight me on this, but I believe the World Cup in 2022 was rather weak. My biggest knock on him is that for an Argentinian his persona is anything but. Historically, Argentinian footballers are typically bad boy rebels that add spice to their teams but are also strong leaders. It's cultural, you have to be around it to inherit it and that's the thing, Messi wasn't, he was raised in Barcelona. He's just too placid, too quiet, where's Maradona seemed like a firecracker, but also a charismatic leader who led his side to a World Cup victory in 86. I wasn't born back then, but judging by the players and team cohesiveness, I'd like to think that was a difficult achievement.

[Deivork]

Please, only casual football fans would pose this question. Cristiano is an all time great, but closer to a Top-10 player than a consensus top3 like LeBron.

For real. Not a debate

[-Luke-]

Messi had that growth hormone deficiency and underwent treatment, so from the start he wasn't the pick of the litter. Certainly didn't have the alien genetics of R9, who was both fast and strong. R9 for me was also better on the ball. I do hold Messi in higher regard to Cristiano as he is more naturally gifted. He played in one of the best sides we've seen. That Barca side basically won the World Cup in 2010 (7/11 starters played for Barca). With Argentina, it's hard to forget all the failures. I know y'all fight me on this, but I believe the World Cup in 2022 was rather weak. My biggest knock on him is that for an Argentinian his persona is anything but. Historically, Argentinian footballers are typically bad boy rebels that add spice to their teams but are also strong leaders. It's cultural, you have to be around it to inherit it and that's the thing, Messi wasn't, he was raised in Barcelona. He's just too placid, too quiet, where's Maradona seemed like a firecracker, but also a charismatic leader who led his side to a World Cup victory in 86. I wasn't born back then, but judging by the players and team cohesiveness, I'd like to think that was a difficult achievement.

Maradona also joined a Napoli team that was almost relegated the season before. He turned that club around and made them special. Too bad he had all those private problems (cocaine etc.) and was pretty much done at age 30 or so.

Can't say much about the 1986 World Cup as I also wasn't born. As far as I can tell Brazil and France were considered favorites before the tournament- Argentina was favorite in the final against a rather weak but scrappy German team, but I don't think they were considered top favorites before. Maradona had some genius moments.

[Tracymcgoaty]

R9 at Inter was the best footballer I've ever witnessed and I've been watching since 94. Serie A was his playground and this was at a time when it was considered by many as the best league in the world. As people have already mentioned, the likes of Maldini, Nesta and Thuram couldn't defend him. I remember the 98 world cup, a lot of star players and good cohesive teams, which is something you don't get nowadays with an increase in player movement. Out of all the stars, he was the dude every fan wanted to see.

The quickest player I've seen with the ball, too technical and fast for his own good just like d rose with his athleticism. He had intelligence and positional IQ, he was an excellent and composed finisher and he was strong, thus wasn't easily pushed off the ball. For those saying that he was just another flashy Brazilian, my response would be that every dribble of his had purpose, he would shift defenders and create space. Compare this to Cristiano in the early years at Sporting and Man utd, where a lot of his stepovers would go to waste. I think both Messi and Cristiano are better finishers but it didn't matter because R9 would often dribble past the goalkeeper and pass into an open net.

I think Cristiano is one of the best poaches we've seen and this requires high intelligence and positional sense. An elite athlete and hardest of workers, discipline very kobe like. He worked to get to that level as opposed to R9 who was a natural talent and lazy in training, if I may add.

Messi had that growth hormone deficiency and underwent treatment, so from the start he wasn't the pick of the litter. Certainly didn't have the alien genetics of R9, who was both fast and strong. R9 for me was also better on the ball. I do hold Messi in higher regard to Cristiano as he is more naturally gifted. He played in one of the best sides we've seen. That Barca side basically won the World Cup in 2010 (7/11 starters played for Barca). With Argentina, it's hard to forget all the failures. I know y'all fight me on this, but I believe the World Cup in 2022 was rather weak. My biggest knock on him is that for an Argentinian his persona is anything but. Historically, Argentinian footballers are typically bad boy rebels that add spice to their teams but are also strong leaders. It's cultural, you have to be around it to inherit it and that's the thing, Messi wasn't, he was raised in Barcelona. He's just too placid, too quiet, where's Maradona seemed like a firecracker, but also a charismatic leader who led his side to a World Cup victory in 86. I wasn't born back then, but judging by the players and team cohesiveness, I'd like to think that was a difficult achievement.

THANK YOU! Finally someone who understands just how **** good R9 was. HE'd maul modern defenders. Dude had GOAT defenders shaking in their boots and people honestly want to sell me on the point that he wouldn't kill modern defenders?

Same modern defenders who cant guard guys like Haaland? Mbappe who many consider the closest thing to Ronaldo which imo he isn't. He has scored 34+ goals in all competitions this season.

[Tracymcgoaty]

Messi had that growth hormone deficiency and underwent treatment, so from the start he wasn't the pick of the litter. Certainly didn't have the alien genetics of R9, who was both fast and strong. R9 for me was also better on the ball. I do hold Messi in higher regard to Cristiano as he is more naturally gifted. He played in one of the best sides we've seen. That Barca side basically won the World Cup in 2010 (7/11 starters played for Barca). With Argentina, it's hard to forget all the failures. I know y'all fight me on this, but I believe the World Cup in 2022 was rather weak. My biggest knock on him is that for an Argentinian his persona is anything but. Historically, Argentinian footballers are typically bad boy rebels that add spice to their teams but are also strong leaders. It's cultural, you have to be around it to inherit it and that's the thing, Messi wasn't, he was raised in Barcelona. He's just too placid, too quiet, where's Maradona seemed like a firecracker, but also a charismatic leader who led his side to a World Cup victory in 86. I wasn't born back then, but judging by the players and team cohesiveness, I'd like to think that was a difficult achievement.

Maradona also joined a Napoli team that was almost relegated the season before. He turned that club around and made them special. Too bad he had all those private problems (cocaine etc.) and was pretty much done at age 30 or so.

Can't say much about the 1986 World Cup as I also wasn't born. As far as I can tell Brazil and France were considered favorites before the tournament- Argentina was favorite in the final against a rather weak but scrappy German team, but I don't think they were considered top favorites before. Maradona had some genius moments.

Here's the thing with Diego. While he doesn't have the longevity. Those titles he got with Napoli and that WC title he got with Argentina were some of the greatest titles in football history imo.

He might not a shined for as long as Messi/Cristiano

BUT MAN when he shined it was a solar raygun.

[Lakers824]

Messi is much better than ronaldo as a football player. They aren't really in the same stratosphere in terms of impact. Forget about the lead in world player of the year awards, golden boots, goal ratio, assist ratio, IFFS playmaker of the year awards, being a 4 time (!) International tournament mvp compared to Ronaldo's zero. His sheer impact is higher.

Jordan was better than Lebron but it sint anywhere near as big a chasm as the Messi vs Ronaldo one.

[Tracymcgoaty]

Messi is much better than ronaldo as a football player. They aren't really in the same stratosphere in terms of impact. Forget about the lead in world player of the year awards, golden boots, goal ratio, assist ratio, IFFS playmaker of the year awards, being a 4 time (!) International tournament mvp compared to Ronaldo's zero. His sheer impact is higher.

Jordan was better than Lebron but it sint anywhere near as big a chasm as the Messi vs Ronaldo one.

BUT BUT BUT he took hgh as a kid!!