2022-23 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt.1)

[Peregrine01]

At the moment I think there is a nice gap between Jokic and everyone else. He checks off pretty much every box you can ask for when looking at MVP

Elite raw stats? Check
Elite advanced metrics? Check
Team success? Check
Not being on a stacked team with another MVP candidate? Check

It seems like at the moment, whatever argument you can come up with for your criteria for MVP, Jokic checks it off. Best player in the game and Im now at the point where Im not even rooting for my Duke guy to win. I want to see Jokic win just to see the reaction from some on here and the talking heads trying to explain how the guy they clearly hate talking about just won 3 straight MVPs.

It’s insane but it’s like he is getting incrementally better...and the gap between him and others is getting wider. As good as Giannis is, and Giannis is all time great and getting better....Jokic is getting better at a faster rate.

Is this a Modern magic and bird without the big city and personal rivalry - ?

Im at the point where tier 1 in the NBA is just Jokic and Giannis. While I think Jokic is the best player, If someone wants to make the case for Giannis, Im not going to sit here and say they're wrong. I honestly think it just comes down to personal preference between those two.

And to me the best part about them, and this is to an even more extreme than Larry and Magic. They're polar opposite when it comes to what makes them stand apart. Giannis is a freak among freaks haha. While Jokic is as unathletic as you can get in the NBA (before we get into a deep convo of what is athleticism, Im talking combine/explosive athleticism). And both guys have found ways to basically master their games around that. Fantastic to watch.

It's too bad that good hands, footwork, spacial awareness and peripheral vision can't be measured all that well cause I have to believe Jokic would be in the 100th percentile in all of those categories.

Or simply - put the combine away and actually watch games.

[Cubbies2120]

A team with no hope to win a single round, so very valuable. It aint his fault those guys were hurt but show me one instance of another guy winning an mvp for what he DIDNT have.

He ran into the single best team in the NBA, the Warriors. Nobody in the NBA was beating them last year, so it was all about when you run into them...I'd say its better to lose to the Champs in the 1st round than lose to a team who doesn't even make it out of their conference in the 2nd round, no?

Again seeding doesnt matter, record does. You didnt want to address that one huh?

Let's address # of wins contributed to as well, yeah? Who played in the most wins last year between Jokic/Giannis/Embiid? Wanna guess?

If you play in 42 wins, and your team has 62 wins in the regular season vs. a guy who played in 43 of 45 wins...why would the guy with 42 wins get "credit" for it more?

[Exp0sed]

Watch on YouTube

He's still salty and by the way he's not the best scorer in the league. He's the most protected by the refs player in the league.

If I was a Philly fan I’d be pissed by this garbage. Screw MVP voting & focus on winning a title.

Beyond the impact on winning (which Jokic wins in a landslide) the other big difference is where their focus is.

Jokic will finish an all time great, Embiid will be a foot note in the discussion of greatness.

And I’d say this even if the inferior player (Embiid) had received the last two MVPs.

Jokic will get a proper roster one day and when that day comes he’s gonna steam roll the league. No more Facu, no more Barton crap he carried last year.

Get him one all star, just one, and let’s see what happens:

this interview is embrassing and embodies all that I see on the court from him as well
This dude is not a winner

where are the guys who told me Embiid was "trolling" when he said that. a-ha...

Jokic with his suit stuff right around the MVP stuff was an undertone there where he said: "I didn't like the way some of the guys were showing up" and I guess he means - in extra casual clothes

but i took it to mean also - defensively, as pros as competitores etc

he continued to say something like: A suit means ur here for business, it's a way to represent urself - ur here to do your job

i thought it was no coincidence, this is Jokic's way to help his teammates understand what it means to take it higher, and that it requires more concentration and a more professional appraoch

I.e - defensively
he's the Alpha in the locker room obviously, even he's not an arrogant ego-maniacs like some past superstars :
so perhaps the guys can take a cue from their leader, in the right direction?

Memphis game was a good start

so yeah, the stories that are gonna come out of the lockerroom with this guys would probably fill future basketball podcasts, books etc.

and as for Embiid, not so much
that's how it seems on the outside anyway, just a guess tbh

edit: like it or not, superstars and MVP's are measured by their leadership as well
its not the main things, but it certainly drives certain narratives forwards and others backwards

most MVP's and all time greats were also effective leaders
it comes it different shape and forms, from the tyranny of MJ (still effective tho) to Lebron's passive-aggresive
or even steady Duncan - different type of leaders but effective leaders nonetheless

Jokic shows that quality considerably more than Embiid imo

[CobraCommander]

At the moment I think there is a nice gap between Jokic and everyone else. He checks off pretty much every box you can ask for when looking at MVP

Elite raw stats? Check
Elite advanced metrics? Check
Team success? Check
Not being on a stacked team with another MVP candidate? Check

It seems like at the moment, whatever argument you can come up with for your criteria for MVP, Jokic checks it off. Best player in the game and Im now at the point where Im not even rooting for my Duke guy to win. I want to see Jokic win just to see the reaction from some on here and the talking heads trying to explain how the guy they clearly hate talking about just won 3 straight MVPs.

It’s insane but it’s like he is getting incrementally better...and the gap between him and others is getting wider. As good as Giannis is, and Giannis is all time great and getting better....Jokic is getting better at a faster rate.

Is this a Modern magic and bird without the big city and personal rivalry - ?

It could have been had the Nuggets a better roster these past few seasons
the rivalry can't reach those heights if the teams don't meet in the finals

Agreed...and they both seem to lack the pettiness of magic and Bird as well. When I look back, magic, bird, jordan and others were petty and angry individuals...maybe during that time frame we thought competition had to be bitter and rivals had to dislike each other but now...they just ball.

Jokic getting to the finals against Giannis would yield the best basketball and the worse rating....lol. If there is a conspiracy against that the entire marketing world is in on it

[CobraCommander]

At the moment I think there is a nice gap between Jokic and everyone else. He checks off pretty much every box you can ask for when looking at MVP

Elite raw stats? Check
Elite advanced metrics? Check
Team success? Check
Not being on a stacked team with another MVP candidate? Check

It seems like at the moment, whatever argument you can come up with for your criteria for MVP, Jokic checks it off. Best player in the game and Im now at the point where Im not even rooting for my Duke guy to win. I want to see Jokic win just to see the reaction from some on here and the talking heads trying to explain how the guy they clearly hate talking about just won 3 straight MVPs.

It’s insane but it’s like he is getting incrementally better...and the gap between him and others is getting wider. As good as Giannis is, and Giannis is all time great and getting better....Jokic is getting better at a faster rate.

Is this a Modern magic and bird without the big city and personal rivalry - ?

NBA supremacy for the next 5-7 years.

This is my phones background from here on out.....this is perfect

[CobraCommander]

It’s insane but it’s like he is getting incrementally better...and the gap between him and others is getting wider. As good as Giannis is, and Giannis is all time great and getting better....Jokic is getting better at a faster rate.

Is this a Modern magic and bird without the big city and personal rivalry - ?

I guess who do you have as higher on the ATL. They are basically the same age. IMO they are pretty similar and Giannis just peaked earlier and lucked/willed his way into a championship so that gives him the edge. I'm not a ringz guy but I think that will ultimately be the deciding factor. Giannis is the better defended and volume scorer, where Jokic is more skilled and efficient. Hard to really compare the two when at the end of the day the accolades will be pretty similar (2+ MVPs, 10+ All NBAs, etc)

I have Giannis one rung ahead because winning a ring matters. But it is one rung and both these guys top 20 to me. The question is do they peak into top 10...rings could do it.

[PennSports]

Watch on YouTube

He's still salty and by the way he's not the best scorer in the league. He's the most protected by the refs player in the league.

If I was a Philly fan I’d be pissed by this garbage. Screw MVP voting & focus on winning a title.

Beyond the impact on winning (which Jokic wins in a landslide) the other big difference is where their focus is.

Jokic will finish an all time great, Embiid will be a foot note in the discussion of greatness.

And I’d say this even if the inferior player (Embiid) had received the last two MVPs.

Jokic will get a proper roster one day and when that day comes he’s gonna steam roll the league. No more Facu, no more Barton crap he carried last year.

Get him one all star, just one, and let’s see what happens:

this interview is embrassing and embodies all that I see on the court from him as well
This dude is not a winner

where are the guys who told me Embiid was "trolling" when he said that. a-ha...

Jokic with his suit stuff right around the MVP stuff was an undertone there where he said: "I didn't like the way some of the guys were showing up" and I guess he means - in extra casual clothes

but i took it to mean also - defensively, as pros as competitores etc

he continued to say something like: A suit means ur here for business, it's a way to represent urself - ur here to do your job

i thought it was no coincidence, this is Jokic's way to help his teammates understand what it means to take it higher, and that it requires more concentration and a more professional appraoch

I.e - defensively
he's the Alpha in the locker room obviously, even he's not an arrogant ego-maniacs like some past superstars :
so perhaps the guys can take a cue from their leader, in the right direction?

Memphis game was a good start

so yeah, the stories that are gonna come out of the lockerroom with this guys would probably fill future basketball podcasts, books etc.

and as for Embiid, not so much
that's how it seems on the outside anyway, just a guess tbh

edit: like it or not, superstars and MVP's are measured by their leadership as well
its not the main things, but it certainly drives certain narratives forwards and others backwards

most MVP's and all time greats were also effective leaders
it comes it different shape and forms, from the tyranny of MJ (still effective tho) to Lebron's passive-aggresive
or even steady Duncan - different type of leaders but effective leaders nonetheless

Jokic shows that quality considerably more than Embiid imo

that was pretty much the most basic interview you could ever have and you wrote a diary entry about it praise jokic instead of mention anything embiid actually said.

Super unbiased btw

[PennSports]

Which of the two do you think provides more value to a team:

Game 1: +40
Game 2: +40
Game 3: +40
Game 4: -9
Game 5: -9
Game 6: -9
Game 7: -9

Total: +84

or

Game 1: +12
Game 1: +12
Game 1: +12
Game 1: +12
Game 1: +12
Game 1: +12
Game 1: +12

Total: +84

There's two huge +- outliers in Embiid's data set (one big blowout), but I'm glad you're finally a huge fan of the +- stats as performance indicators, a lot of people were talking them down when Jokic was dominating and setting records with them last couple years...I'm glad you've come around

If you wanna talk +/- and outliers i got a doozy for you!

Embiid has a plus minus of +282 in his playoff career with 4 of his 5 playoff runs being positive. This is with him playing through an injury every post season and he is still dominant in this regard

Jokic -32 with 3 of his 4 playoff runs being negative

Sounds like the outlier here is Jokic's positive run and Embiid's negative one.

About +- in the playoffs. In Utah series Denver won in 2020 Denver scored 770 overall points. Utah scored 794. Denver as a team was -24. Denver won series 4-3.

In Atlanta series in 2021 76ers scored 775 overall points. Atlanta scored 754. 76ers as a team were +21. Atlanta won series 4-3.

In the playoffs things are a little different. In you underachieve every year your +- might look good, you win big at home, fly airplanes ect. Win big 3 games, loose by little 4 games. But you lose and disappoint at the end.

If you are underdog that wins series your +- might not look so good but you win at the end. If you are eliminated from POs every year by clearly better team it can bump your +- in negative way. But you never disappoint.

That is what separates those two in POs.

You wanted to talk +/- im here for your excuses. Keep em coming. Embiid being +300 over Jokic in the playoffs seems like his team has let him down while Jokics team has lifted him. That is just me though. Never disappoint? How about the 2x mvp getting ejected in 2 out of 3 playoff games for letting the game get to his head? If that happened to any other high profile player it would be talked about endlessly, wonder why Jokic gets a pass. He is the golden boy of the media and yet fans complain he is disrespected. Absolutely ridiculous. Tell me another player who would get off scott free for such antics?

[Exp0sed]

Why are u making stuff up?
nowhere did i write that i'm "unbiased" i dislike Embiid (alot) and have stated it many time including in this thread

also I hold Jokic in very high regard and find him incredibly entertaining to watch the polar opposite of Embiid whose really good but unwatchable for the most part

that wasn't "the most basic interview" lol
dude just talks about himself

if u don't see it and\or get it then u don't and that's fine by me

it's his demeanor my bro, on and off the court
a loser's demeanor and when he fails again this postseason despite having a legitematly stacked team (assuming the 76ers will be healthy come playoff time and i hope they will be) u can come back here and make another excuse but reality wouldn't change - this guy is not a winner and everything about the way he carries himself on and off the court plus the way he plays - would only lead to future disappointment for him and his fans

he is literally obssesed with personal accolades and feeling "slighted" and it comes at the expense of the team
if u can't see that idk what to tell ya, but guys that are that good find ways to make others better
and Embiid is kind of at the other edge of that spectrum as far as superstars go anyways

[PennSports]

Why are u making stuff up?
nowhere did i write that i'm "unbiased" i dislike Embiid (alot) and have stated it many time including in this thread

also I hold Jokic in very high regard and find him incredibly entertaining to watch the polar opposite of Embiid whose really good but unwatchable for the most part

that wasn't "the most basic interview" lol
dude just talks about himself

if u don't see it and\or get it then u don't and that's fine by me

it's his demeanor my bro, on and off the court
a loser's demeanor and when he fails again this postseason despite having a legitematly stacked team (assuming the 76ers will be healthy come playoff time and i hope they will be) u can come back here and make another excuse but reality wouldn't change - this guy is not a winner and everything about the way he carries himself on and off the court plus the way he plays - would only lead to future disappointment for him and his fans

he is literally obssesed with personal accolades and feeling "slighted" and it comes at the expense of the team
if u can't see that idk what to tell ya, but guys that are that good find ways to make others better
and Embiid is kind of at the other edge of that spectrum as far as superstars go anyways

Jokics made it one game further in the playoffs one time and that was three years ago. Seems he should get the same flak but the 2xmvp isnt held to the standard that the great Embiid is here. Make that make sense. Jokic is this great team player who elevates him teammates but is -300 compared to embiid is playoff +/-

I know im fighting against a tsunami of Jokic stans here but when does he have to actually win in order for this to make sense? 2 ejections in 3 playoff games is a pure winner mentality to help his team! Where has embiid ever put accolades over the team winning? Id like to see one single source on that claim but you wont find it. Everytime hes asked about it he says you gotta win first, that is the most important thing. So i ask again where is this coming from? You are obviously biased against him so lets see some proof.

[BelgradeNugget]

If you wanna talk +/- and outliers i got a doozy for you!

Embiid has a plus minus of +282 in his playoff career with 4 of his 5 playoff runs being positive. This is with him playing through an injury every post season and he is still dominant in this regard

Jokic -32 with 3 of his 4 playoff runs being negative

Sounds like the outlier here is Jokic's positive run and Embiid's negative one.

About +- in the playoffs. In Utah series Denver won in 2020 Denver scored 770 overall points. Utah scored 794. Denver as a team was -24. Denver won series 4-3.

In Atlanta series in 2021 76ers scored 775 overall points. Atlanta scored 754. 76ers as a team were +21. Atlanta won series 4-3.

In the playoffs things are a little different. In you underachieve every year your +- might look good, you win big at home, fly airplanes ect. Win big 3 games, loose by little 4 games. But you lose and disappoint at the end.

If you are underdog that wins series your +- might not look so good but you win at the end. If you are eliminated from POs every year by clearly better team it can bump your +- in negative way. But you never disappoint.

That is what separates those two in POs.

You wanted to talk +/- im here for your excuses. Keep em coming. Embiid being +300 over Jokic in the playoffs seems like his team has let him down while Jokics team has lifted him. That is just me though. Never disappoint? How about the 2x mvp getting ejected in 2 out of 3 playoff games for letting the game get to his head? If that happened to any other high profile player it would be talked about endlessly, wonder why Jokic gets a pass. He is the golden boy of the media and yet fans complain he is disrespected. Absolutely ridiculous. Tell me another player who would get off scott free for such antics?

I already answered to your +- question. Against Atlanta 76ers as a team were +21, and somehow managed to loose. Win big lose small overall down 4-3. And isn't Embiid the one who is letting his team down every year. Freakish injuries, but still not there when they need him. Against Atlanta wasn't he the one who missed layup for 3-1? But nobody is talking about that. First it's Bret Brown, then Ben Simmons, Doc Rivers, Harden, but never Embiid. You can make a case that only time he and his team didn't disappoint was when they were swept in the 1st round without Ben. That year they were underdogs. Every other year they were favorite when they loose. Just look what Butler has done after leaving 76ers. He couldn't have done it there. Why? Yes we all know, Bret Brown and Simmons but never Embiid.
On the other side only time Jokic lost against team that wasn't favored against them was in his 1st POs against Portland in 2nd round. Beating Clippers and Portland with Campazzo and Rivers as underdogs is something Embiid has never done.

[PennSports]

About +- in the playoffs. In Utah series Denver won in 2020 Denver scored 770 overall points. Utah scored 794. Denver as a team was -24. Denver won series 4-3.

In Atlanta series in 2021 76ers scored 775 overall points. Atlanta scored 754. 76ers as a team were +21. Atlanta won series 4-3.

In the playoffs things are a little different. In you underachieve every year your +- might look good, you win big at home, fly airplanes ect. Win big 3 games, loose by little 4 games. But you lose and disappoint at the end.

If you are underdog that wins series your +- might not look so good but you win at the end. If you are eliminated from POs every year by clearly better team it can bump your +- in negative way. But you never disappoint.

That is what separates those two in POs.

You wanted to talk +/- im here for your excuses. Keep em coming. Embiid being +300 over Jokic in the playoffs seems like his team has let him down while Jokics team has lifted him. That is just me though. Never disappoint? How about the 2x mvp getting ejected in 2 out of 3 playoff games for letting the game get to his head? If that happened to any other high profile player it would be talked about endlessly, wonder why Jokic gets a pass. He is the golden boy of the media and yet fans complain he is disrespected. Absolutely ridiculous. Tell me another player who would get off scott free for such antics?

I already answered to your +- question. Against Atlanta 76ers as a team were +21, and somehow managed to loose. Win big lose small overall down 4-3. And isn't Embiid the one who is letting his team down every year. Freakish injuries, but still not there when they need him. Against Atlanta wasn't he the one who missed layup for 3-1? But nobody is talking about that. First it's Bret Brown, then Ben Simmons, Doc Rivers, Harden, but never Embiid. You can make a case that only time he and his team didn't disappoint was when they were swept in the 1st round without Ben. That year they were underdogs. Every other year they were favorite when they loose. Just look what Butler has done after leaving 76ers. He couldn't have done it there. Why? Yes we all know, Bret Brown and Simmons but never Embiid.
On the other side only time Jokic lost against team that wasn't favored against them was in his 1st POs against Portland in 2nd round. Beating Clippers and Portland with Campazzo and Rivers as underdogs is something Embiid has never done.

all i did was post straight up facts

+/- is not a catch all stat that everything should revolve around but others were using it as such so i dropped a bomb on them. Maybe more context is needed for all these stats afterall? Thanks for trying to bend over backwards to prove my point.
Either way when does Jokic need to actually win without these caveats? You make these excuses for embiids good numbers to prove they arent so good... so what? He didnt win. Jokic didnt win. Jokic gets all the accolades when does he actually have to win? Embiid gets more **** for doing the same in the playoffs as him yet Jokic is a WINNER and Embiid is a LOSER. Shouldnt the mvp and now 2xmvp be held to a higher standard? I guess not, its just open season on Jojo.

What has Jokic done to prove hes a winner over Embiid? Honestly try to answer that. They both havent gotten close to winning a ship. They are working towards it and that is TOTALLY FINE. Yet one gets hell for it and the other is about to win a third mvp with no playoff success. Sounds like there is some bias going on but ive never made it a secret that i am biased towards Embiid. I think i am making a solid argument but you are all free to pick it apart as you see fit. They both havent been close yet one gets lambasted while the other is lauded. Why is that?

[_NoMas]

You wanted to talk +/- im here for your excuses. Keep em coming. Embiid being +300 over Jokic in the playoffs seems like his team has let him down while Jokics team has lifted him. That is just me though. Never disappoint? How about the 2x mvp getting ejected in 2 out of 3 playoff games for letting the game get to his head? If that happened to any other high profile player it would be talked about endlessly, wonder why Jokic gets a pass. He is the golden boy of the media and yet fans complain he is disrespected. Absolutely ridiculous. Tell me another player who would get off scott free for such antics?

I already answered to your +- question. Against Atlanta 76ers as a team were +21, and somehow managed to loose. Win big lose small overall down 4-3. And isn't Embiid the one who is letting his team down every year. Freakish injuries, but still not there when they need him. Against Atlanta wasn't he the one who missed layup for 3-1? But nobody is talking about that. First it's Bret Brown, then Ben Simmons, Doc Rivers, Harden, but never Embiid. You can make a case that only time he and his team didn't disappoint was when they were swept in the 1st round without Ben. That year they were underdogs. Every other year they were favorite when they loose. Just look what Butler has done after leaving 76ers. He couldn't have done it there. Why? Yes we all know, Bret Brown and Simmons but never Embiid.
On the other side only time Jokic lost against team that wasn't favored against them was in his 1st POs against Portland in 2nd round. Beating Clippers and Portland with Campazzo and Rivers as underdogs is something Embiid has never done.

all i did was post straight up facts

+/- is not a catch all stat that everything should revolve around but others were using it as such so i dropped a bomb on them. Maybe more context is needed for all these stats afterall? Thanks for trying to bend over backwards to prove my point.
Either way when does Jokic need to actually win without these caveats? You make these excuses for embiids good numbers to prove they arent so good... so what? He didnt win. Jokic didnt win. Jokic gets all the accolades when does he actually have to win? Embiid gets more **** for doing the same in the playoffs as him yet Jokic is a WINNER and Embiid is a LOSER. Shouldnt the mvp and now 2xmvp be held to a higher standard? I guess not, its just open season on Jojo.

What has Jokic done to prove hes a winner over Embiid? Honestly try to answer that. They both havent gotten close to winning a ship. They are working towards it and that is TOTALLY FINE. Yet one gets hell for it and the other is about to win a third mvp with no playoff success. Sounds like there is some bias going on but ive never made it a secret that i am biased towards Embiid. I think i am making a solid argument but you are all free to pick it apart as you see fit. They both havent been close yet one gets lambasted while the other is lauded. Why is that?

I’m a huge Jokic fan, so I guess on this forum that makes me a paid up member of ‘team Jokic’. That said, the popular opinion on here is laughable, you’d think Jokic is three times the player Embiid is based on the comments around here.

I give the slight edge to Jokic, I think he can do more with less, and his ability to elevate average players to look decent is remarkable, especially for a centre (although Embiids defence closes the gap). It is however, very close between 2 elite and probably all time great (when they retire) big men. Embiid was a monster last year, and probably the main difference between them, and why again I favour Jokic, is availability. Anyone who tries to argue that there’s a big gap (for either player) is plainly bias

[Exp0sed]

Why are u making stuff up?

I know im fighting against a tsunami of Jokic stans here but when does he have to actually win in order for this to make sense? 2 ejections in 3 playoff games is a pure winner mentality to help his team! Where has embiid ever put accolades over the team winning? Id like to see one single source on that claim but you wont find it. Everytime hes asked about it he says you gotta win first, that is the most important thing. So i ask again where is this coming from? You are obviously biased against him so lets see some proof.

idk what u want, it's obvious to anyone who isn't an Embiid fan
Jokic has never played with an all-star
last season he was literally alone with scrubs
Embiid has played with some damn good players

u wanna tell me that Prime Butler gets to the finals and a competes in a tough finals series with 22 YO Bam at Center, Jae Crowder and olynik?

but with Embiid at Center instead of 22 y.o Adebayo + Tobias harris + Simmons he can't even make the ECF?



Jokic with Simmons, prime Butler, prime Harris and an agingJJ redick is a surefire champion

you like +- so much, how about Embiid having 96 offensive rating for that Toronto series
yes, 96. Butler had 118 in that series, even Simmons had 112

you can't measure success in a vacuum, their respective team situations have been totally different

and even if u did measure it in a vacuum - Jokic would come ahead, any which way you'll look at it

[eyeatoma]

Watch on YouTube

He's still salty and by the way he's not the best scorer in the league. He's the most protected by the refs player in the league.

He's quite literally the best scorer in the league and he is the highest per minute scorer in league history, higher than even Jordan.

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk

[Mickey8]

Cut his free throws which half of them comes as the charity from the refs and he's not, also his shooting percentages are not the greatest, especially for somebody who is playing at the center position.

[greekbuck34]

Every season of Embiid basically.

10 games of pure dominance with a 50-60pt night in between
"I am the best scorer/defender/player and the MVP" type of video
10 games out with injury
10 games of looking like ass
10 games of pure dominance with a 50-60pt night in between
"I am the best scorer/defender/player and the MVP" type of video
10 games out with injury
10 games of looking like ass
10 games of pure dominance with a 50-60pt night in between
"I am the best scorer/defender/player and the MVP" type of video

5 playoff games of pure dominance
5 playoff games looking like ass
2nd round exit

[PennSports]

I already answered to your +- question. Against Atlanta 76ers as a team were +21, and somehow managed to loose. Win big lose small overall down 4-3. And isn't Embiid the one who is letting his team down every year. Freakish injuries, but still not there when they need him. Against Atlanta wasn't he the one who missed layup for 3-1? But nobody is talking about that. First it's Bret Brown, then Ben Simmons, Doc Rivers, Harden, but never Embiid. You can make a case that only time he and his team didn't disappoint was when they were swept in the 1st round without Ben. That year they were underdogs. Every other year they were favorite when they loose. Just look what Butler has done after leaving 76ers. He couldn't have done it there. Why? Yes we all know, Bret Brown and Simmons but never Embiid.
On the other side only time Jokic lost against team that wasn't favored against them was in his 1st POs against Portland in 2nd round. Beating Clippers and Portland with Campazzo and Rivers as underdogs is something Embiid has never done.

all i did was post straight up facts

+/- is not a catch all stat that everything should revolve around but others were using it as such so i dropped a bomb on them. Maybe more context is needed for all these stats afterall? Thanks for trying to bend over backwards to prove my point.
Either way when does Jokic need to actually win without these caveats? You make these excuses for embiids good numbers to prove they arent so good... so what? He didnt win. Jokic didnt win. Jokic gets all the accolades when does he actually have to win? Embiid gets more **** for doing the same in the playoffs as him yet Jokic is a WINNER and Embiid is a LOSER. Shouldnt the mvp and now 2xmvp be held to a higher standard? I guess not, its just open season on Jojo.

What has Jokic done to prove hes a winner over Embiid? Honestly try to answer that. They both havent gotten close to winning a ship. They are working towards it and that is TOTALLY FINE. Yet one gets hell for it and the other is about to win a third mvp with no playoff success. Sounds like there is some bias going on but ive never made it a secret that i am biased towards Embiid. I think i am making a solid argument but you are all free to pick it apart as you see fit. They both havent been close yet one gets lambasted while the other is lauded. Why is that?

I’m a huge Jokic fan, so I guess on this forum that makes me a paid up member of ‘team Jokic’. That said, the popular opinion on here is laughable, you’d think Jokic is three times the player Embiid is based on the comments around here.

I give the slight edge to Jokic, I think he can do more with less, and his ability to elevate average players to look decent is remarkable, especially for a centre (although Embiids defence closes the gap). It is however, very close between 2 elite and probably all time great (when they retire) big men. Embiid was a monster last year, and probably the main difference between them, and why again I favour Jokic, is availability. Anyone who tries to argue that there’s a big gap (for either player) is plainly bias

Appreciate a level headed comment for once no matter who it is from, i just want an honest discussion instead of everyone trying to one up each other and get the final word.

i can get fired up with all the hate but i try to keep it as real as i can. Their careers have been remarkably similar but one has been getting all the love (media, awards) while the other seems he will never get his flowers so that is obviously frustrating. They actually tried to push the narrative last year that embiid threw a playoff game because he lost MVP. I mean come the F on, he had just been hit in his concussed broken face to start that game he had no business playing in. Then people call him soft for obviously being impacted by that facial injury anyone else would be lauded for playing through. Like its ok if you don't like the dude but it goes too far and often at the expense of propping others up.

[Cubbies2120]

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He's still salty and by the way he's not the best scorer in the league. He's the most protected by the refs player in the league.

He's quite literally the best scorer in the league and he is the highest per minute scorer in league history, higher than even Jordan.

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Best scorer according to what measure? PPG? He has 200+ less points than Luka this year...

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2023_totals.html

But sure let's reward a guy who can't stay on the court...
Speaking of highest in NBA history, did you know that Embiid has the highest % of points from free throw line of any player to average 20+ppg...in NBA history? Truly incredible how he does such a great job getting to the line, he's so far ahead of Shaq (who was intentionally hacked for a good portion of his career), that even if Shaq shot 90% from the line, his % of points from free throw line wouldn't be higher than Embiid!

Embiid truly is one of a kind

If we can get Embiid up to ~20 FTA a game he may get close to Jokic's efficiency too!

[BelgradeNugget]

You wanted to talk +/- im here for your excuses. Keep em coming. Embiid being +300 over Jokic in the playoffs seems like his team has let him down while Jokics team has lifted him. That is just me though. Never disappoint? How about the 2x mvp getting ejected in 2 out of 3 playoff games for letting the game get to his head? If that happened to any other high profile player it would be talked about endlessly, wonder why Jokic gets a pass. He is the golden boy of the media and yet fans complain he is disrespected. Absolutely ridiculous. Tell me another player who would get off scott free for such antics?

I already answered to your +- question. Against Atlanta 76ers as a team were +21, and somehow managed to loose. Win big lose small overall down 4-3. And isn't Embiid the one who is letting his team down every year. Freakish injuries, but still not there when they need him. Against Atlanta wasn't he the one who missed layup for 3-1? But nobody is talking about that. First it's Bret Brown, then Ben Simmons, Doc Rivers, Harden, but never Embiid. You can make a case that only time he and his team didn't disappoint was when they were swept in the 1st round without Ben. That year they were underdogs. Every other year they were favorite when they loose. Just look what Butler has done after leaving 76ers. He couldn't have done it there. Why? Yes we all know, Bret Brown and Simmons but never Embiid.
On the other side only time Jokic lost against team that wasn't favored against them was in his 1st POs against Portland in 2nd round. Beating Clippers and Portland with Campazzo and Rivers as underdogs is something Embiid has never done.

all i did was post straight up facts

+/- is not a catch all stat that everything should revolve around but others were using it as such so i dropped a bomb on them. Maybe more context is needed for all these stats afterall? Thanks for trying to bend over backwards to prove my point.
Either way when does Jokic need to actually win without these caveats? You make these excuses for embiids good numbers to prove they arent so good... so what? He didnt win. Jokic didnt win. Jokic gets all the accolades when does he actually have to win? Embiid gets more **** for doing the same in the playoffs as him yet Jokic is a WINNER and Embiid is a LOSER. Shouldnt the mvp and now 2xmvp be held to a higher standard? I guess not, its just open season on Jojo.

What has Jokic done to prove hes a winner over Embiid? Honestly try to answer that. They both havent gotten close to winning a ship. They are working towards it and that is TOTALLY FINE. Yet one gets hell for it and the other is about to win a third mvp with no playoff success. Sounds like there is some bias going on but ive never made it a secret that i am biased towards Embiid. I think i am making a solid argument but you are all free to pick it apart as you see fit. They both havent been close yet one gets lambasted while the other is lauded. Why is that?

Some facts. Here are 76ers - Atalanta Hawks series +- stats

76ers - players with +14 mins per game

Seth Curry +8.4
Joel Embiid +7.3
Danny Green +6.3
Ben Simmons +4.1
Furkan Korkmaz +1.4
Tobias Harris +1.1
George Hill -2.4
Matisse Thybulle -4.9

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/traditional?CF=MIN*GE*14&OpponentTeamID=1610612737&Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Playoffs&TeamID=1610612755&dir=A&sort=PLUS_MINUS

Atalanta Hawks - players with +14 mins per game

Danilo Gallinari +4.6
Lou Williams +3.4
John Collins -0.6
Trae Young -2.4
Kevin Huerter -3.0
Bogdan Bogdanovic -4.6
Clint Capela -8.1

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/traditional?CF=MIN*GE*14&OpponentTeamID=1610612755&Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Playoffs&TeamID=1610612737&dir=A&sort=PLUS_MINUS

Well, 76ers players had much better +- stats. Congratulations. Ups...Atalanta won series. Do you understand what I'm talking about now? Strait POs+-, not a catch all. So maybe +- stats are not good for POs, small sample sizes, and different format, you know.

Regarding wins, team with this starting 5 couldn't get out of 2nd round - Simmons/JJ Redick/Butler/Harris/Embiid. Now replace Simmons/JJ Redick/Harris/Embiid with Dragic/Duncan Robinson/Jae Crowder/Bam Adebayo and you go to finals. Replace them with Kyle Lowry/Max Strus/P.J. Tucker/Bam Adebayo and you go to conference finals. Do you understand what I'm talking about now? Underachieving.

Which team wins series? Dame/CJ/Powell/Roco/Nurkic or Campazzo/Rivers/MPJ/AG/Jokic. Do you understand what I mean by overachieving. In last 3 seasons, only time when Jokic was missing only 1 starter he made it to WCF.