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Castle Black wrote:Jokic also leads his team in Steals. Just an absolutely insane season he's having.
If this isn't the league MVP, I don't know what is.
, the Nuggets come back so much Mavrelous wrote:AleksandarN wrote:Mavrelous wrote:
SGA has better EPM than Jokic, only when you account for previous years Jokic gets ahead in EPM.
But you forget that Jokic is shooting a ridiculous 47.7 from leading the league in 3 pt shooting. 2nd in ppg 2 in asts and 3 rebs. That clearly better than SGA season who by his own right is having one of best seasons by a guard since Curry in Harden. It’s just that Jokic is having an even better all great season
So what?
Jokic is on a meddling team, and is playing his worst season defensively.
SGA is head and shoulders above his teammates as clear cut MVP of the team, none on his team is really 2nd option level offensively, Thunder are on 65-70 win pace while posting insane box score and advanced stats, he's the MVP until something changes.
I really can't understand how this is debatable, and not only are we debating this, but people picking SGA have their objectivity questioned, I was here on the MVP thread last year when Luka led the league in scoring was 2nd in assists, had some historical games, carried a depleted roster with injuries, and everyone was saying he can't win because of record, how is Jokic any different?
BigGargamel wrote:More than just PPG. Put the rest of the package together, and no, it's not close.
RB34 wrote:As much as it pains me to say, KAT should be getting some more love 3-5.
Exp0sed wrote:RB34 wrote:As much as it pains me to say, KAT should be getting some more love 3-5.
I feel like there's a lot of inconsistency regarding stacked teams
first of all let me say I'm higher on Towns than most and always have been (despite his mental struggles at times), he's a hell of a player and he's having a hell of a seasos. here's my issue tho, last season the Knicks won 50 games and Brunson finished 5th in MVP voting. after the deadline the Knicks got better and deeper and from the deadline on they were literally one of the best teams in the NBA. it's pretty easy to assume they would have won say 55 games if they had started last season with the roster than ended the season. they were an elite team and it's not exactly a mystery why:
Brunson,Bridges,OG,Randle,Hart,Hartesnstein,DDV,Barret,Grimes,Mcbride,Achiuwa is an extremely deep and historically deep rotation with basically 10 guys who are legit above average starters and a few of those are well above average
they upgrade over the Summer from Randle to Towns, suddenly Brunson is defering more and getting taking less shots and now he's not an MVP level player anymore (finished 5th just half a year ago..) but Towns is? Towns is the beneficiary of playing with that much space, shooting, defense and great teammates around him. teams can't double him when everyone around him is so good and Brunson getting ALOT of defensive attention
historically, players were "punished" as far as MVP goes for playing alongside other all-stars and all time greats
I mean if Brunson was 5th last year, adding another player whose 5th in MVP (in Towns) should be good for more than a 3rd seed in the East and 53-54 wins (which is the pace they're currently on), wouldn't u agree?
especially considering those two fifth place MVPs are playing alongside other capable players all around
that's why LBJ didn't win in that pedestrian Heatles season, yeah folks wanted to punish him for the "decision" and that played a big part but also, a super team with LBJ and Wade plus Bosh was expected to be better and considerably more dominant
before tonight's win, the Knicks were 3rd in the league offensively and 17th defensively with a differential of +6.2
last season they were 7th offensively and 10th defensively with a differential of +4.8 and mind you, that's for the whole season the numbers after the OG trade etc. were better. does that an MVP make? imo the answer is no
you would expect as much, Towns is an elite offensive player whose giving them that extra offensive elite gear while his defense isn't his strong suit and he's been playing mostly Center, that allows him to rack up alot of stats (Rebounds in particular) but is also lethal as the best stretch 5 in the NBA but it does come at the cost of defense, because a team with Towns at Center is always gonna be below average defensively and there's a def trade off there
Towns is having a great season but MVP talk? idk about that
CobraCommander wrote:It’s time to restart the thread and eliminate people that are ineligible-
It’s a two man race but Brunson needs a option at this point -
Castle Black wrote:Jokic also leads his team in Steals. Just an absolutely insane season he's having.
If this isn't the league MVP, I don't know what is.
AleksandarN wrote:Mavrelous wrote:AleksandarN wrote:But you forget that Jokic is shooting a ridiculous 47.7 from leading the league in 3 pt shooting. 2nd in ppg 2 in asts and 3 rebs. That clearly better than SGA season who by his own right is having one of best seasons by a guard since Curry in Harden. It’s just that Jokic is having an even better all great season
So what?
Jokic is on a meddling team, and is playing his worst season defensively.
SGA is head and shoulders above his teammates as clear cut MVP of the team, none on his team is really 2nd option level offensively, Thunder are on 65-70 win pace while posting insane box score and advanced stats, he's the MVP until something changes.
I really can't understand how this is debatable, and not only are we debating this, but people picking SGA have their objectivity questioned, I was here on the MVP thread last year when Luka led the league in scoring was 2nd in assists, had some historical games, carried a depleted roster with injuries, and everyone was saying he can't win because of record, how is Jokic any different?
Well for one Jokic is playing better than Luka was. Secondly no one is really a second option on the nuggets. Heck on OKC their second option is scoring over 20 pts a game. No on Denver is. Even though Denver’s pace is greater than OKC. OKC has the way deeper and talented team than Denver. Way better defensive players aswell it is reflected on their records. I only stated Jokic’s case I didn’t question your objectivity so I don’t know why you would reply my post with that crap. I gave SGA his props. I get a so what? Well that’s rude. Why give me attitude? I don’t need to knock anyone down to make my case for Jokic so I don’t why you mention other people in this reply.
brackdan70 wrote:Castle Black wrote:Jokic also leads his team in Steals. Just an absolutely insane season he's having.
If this isn't the league MVP, I don't know what is.
He is also 91st of 168 in LEBRON D sorted by players with over 750 minutes and 160th in EPM D (not sorted)
The other MVP candidates are quite a bit better on that side of the ball.
RB34 wrote:Exp0sed wrote:RB34 wrote:As much as it pains me to say, KAT should be getting some more love 3-5.
I feel like there's a lot of inconsistency regarding stacked teams
first of all let me say I'm higher on Towns than most and always have been (despite his mental struggles at times), he's a hell of a player and he's having a hell of a seasos. here's my issue tho, last season the Knicks won 50 games and Brunson finished 5th in MVP voting. after the deadline the Knicks got better and deeper and from the deadline on they were literally one of the best teams in the NBA. it's pretty easy to assume they would have won say 55 games if they had started last season with the roster than ended the season. they were an elite team and it's not exactly a mystery why:
Brunson,Bridges,OG,Randle,Hart,Hartesnstein,DDV,Barret,Grimes,Mcbride,Achiuwa is an extremely deep and historically deep rotation with basically 10 guys who are legit above average starters and a few of those are well above average
they upgrade over the Summer from Randle to Towns, suddenly Brunson is defering more and getting taking less shots and now he's not an MVP level player anymore (finished 5th just half a year ago..) but Towns is? Towns is the beneficiary of playing with that much space, shooting, defense and great teammates around him. teams can't double him when everyone around him is so good and Brunson getting ALOT of defensive attention
historically, players were "punished" as far as MVP goes for playing alongside other all-stars and all time greats
I mean if Brunson was 5th last year, adding another player whose 5th in MVP (in Towns) should be good for more than a 3rd seed in the East and 53-54 wins (which is the pace they're currently on), wouldn't u agree?
especially considering those two fifth place MVPs are playing alongside other capable players all around
that's why LBJ didn't win in that pedestrian Heatles season, yeah folks wanted to punish him for the "decision" and that played a big part but also, a super team with LBJ and Wade plus Bosh was expected to be better and considerably more dominant
before tonight's win, the Knicks were 3rd in the league offensively and 17th defensively with a differential of +6.2
last season they were 7th offensively and 10th defensively with a differential of +4.8 and mind you, that's for the whole season the numbers after the OG trade etc. were better. does that an MVP make? imo the answer is no
you would expect as much, Towns is an elite offensive player whose giving them that extra offensive elite gear while his defense isn't his strong suit and he's been playing mostly Center, that allows him to rack up alot of stats (Rebounds in particular) but is also lethal as the best stretch 5 in the NBA but it does come at the cost of defense, because a team with Towns at Center is always gonna be below average defensively and there's a def trade off there
Towns is having a great season but MVP talk? idk about that
I 100% agree with you. I have been one of the main advocates about the rules applying across the board.
I remember when KD joined the Warriors and both he and Steph had outstanding seasons. They were both ruled out of MVP contention because they played together.
Then you look back at 19-20 when LeBron and AD were both NBA 1st team. They were the only team with 2 but LeBron was getting MVP consideration.
Generally, MVP candidates between 3-10 aren’t anywhere close to winning the award but at least it opens up the conversation as opposed just arguing 1 v 2 all the time.
brackdan70 wrote:RB34 wrote:Exp0sed wrote:
Generally, MVP candidates between 3-10 aren’t anywhere close to winning the award but at least it opens up the conversation as opposed just arguing 1 v 2 all the time.
Towns is having a great season. He is currently 4th and 5th respectively in LEBRON WAR and EPM Estimated wins. Great player and a great addition for NY, but not quite MVP level.
I think it’s really a two horse race. SGA and Jokic. Tatum has had a few relative duds and is a distant third. Giannis is in the mix for 4th, but it’s really SGAs to lose now imo, with Jokic still being right on his heels.
Exp0sed wrote:brackdan70 wrote:RB34 wrote:
Generally, MVP candidates between 3-10 aren’t anywhere close to winning the award but at least it opens up the conversation as opposed just arguing 1 v 2 all the time.
Towns is having a great season. He is currently 4th and 5th respectively in LEBRON WAR and EPM Estimated wins. Great player and a great addition for NY, but not quite MVP level.
I think it’s really a two horse race. SGA and Jokic. Tatum has had a few relative duds and is a distant third. Giannis is in the mix for 4th, but it’s really SGAs to lose now imo, with Jokic still being right on his heels.
where was Towns last season in EPM and whatever the hell "LEBRON WAR" is?
amazing how a guy can switch teams and become so much better over night..gives alot of credence to these stats
TheProfessor wrote:Castle Black wrote:Jokic also leads his team in Steals. Just an absolutely insane season he's having.
If this isn't the league MVP, I don't know what is.
This is great and all, and should win MVP most seasons. But the other guy is playing like Prime Jordan. Now ask yourself, Would Jokic win MVP over Prime Jordan?
AleksandarN wrote:TheProfessor wrote:Castle Black wrote:Jokic also leads his team in Steals. Just an absolutely insane season he's having.
If this isn't the league MVP, I don't know what is.
This is great and all, and should win MVP most seasons. But the other guy is playing like Prime Jordan. Now ask yourself, Would Jokic win MVP over Prime Jordan?
Prime Jordan?
AleksandarN wrote:TheProfessor wrote:Castle Black wrote:Jokic also leads his team in Steals. Just an absolutely insane season he's having.
If this isn't the league MVP, I don't know what is.
This is great and all, and should win MVP most seasons. But the other guy is playing like Prime Jordan. Now ask yourself, Would Jokic win MVP over Prime Jordan?
Prime Jordan?
Prime Jordan, sto mora covek da sere.TheProfessor wrote:AleksandarN wrote:TheProfessor wrote:This is great and all, and should win MVP most seasons. But the other guy is playing like Prime Jordan. Now ask yourself, Would Jokic win MVP over Prime Jordan?
Prime Jordan?
Yes, I am not saying he is Prime Jordan or his play will translate in the playoffs but currently in the last 40 games or so. He has been Prime Jordan. We have not seen 2 way dominance like this from a guard since Jordan. Physically, similar. Stats are similar, 2 way impact is similar, Game is similar. Only thing Jordan really did was play more minutes. The biggest thing is the motor is similar. He is the second best offensive player while being a top 3-5 guard defensively.