NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2)

Moderators: Clav, Domejandro, ken6199, bisme37, Dirk, KingDavid, cupcakesnake, bwgood77, zimpy27, infinite11285

Who is your current NBA MVP? (listed alphabetically)

Giannis Antetokounmpo
51
13%
Luka Doncic
70
18%
Kevin Durant
19
5%
Joel Embiid
25
6%
Nikola Jokic
167
42%
Donovan Mitchell
2
1%
Ja Morant
2
1%
Jayson Tatum
48
12%
Zion Williamson
5
1%
Other (Booker, Curry, Davis, SGA, etc.)
8
2%
 
Total votes: 397

dygaction
General Manager
Posts: 7,638
And1: 4,926
Joined: Sep 20, 2015
 

Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1701 » by dygaction » Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:57 pm

Ballerhogger wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=20&t=hFwPRNB-Kf5_NrtDPRLG_A not all star starter..... I dont like it for mvp chances..... Part of the award is popularity contest...


Lol, 2nd in MVP to be on second team all-nba is already tough to swallow, and now bench on all star... Embiid is ready for some real revenge.
It is a tough call among the four forwards in the east though. Durant and Giannis have the MVP+ Finals MVP star power among fans, while Tatum is more healthy and leading the Boston Celtics to league the best record.
liquidswords
Rookie
Posts: 1,248
And1: 1,245
Joined: May 19, 2021
 

Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1702 » by liquidswords » Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:59 pm

Remember when some posters on here didn't take the "media narrative" for MVP seriously? Tatum was #1 in media vote for the all-star game. Its happening right in front of our faces
Jadoogar
RealGM
Posts: 17,332
And1: 16,968
Joined: May 06, 2010
   

Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1703 » by Jadoogar » Fri Jan 27, 2023 7:16 pm

liquidswords wrote:Remember when some posters on here didn't take the "media narrative" for MVP seriously? Tatum was #1 in media vote for the all-star game. Its happening right in front of our faces


Is that shocking? He's the best player on the best team in the league. Jaylen Brown was #2 among media for guards. I don't think this impacts MVP voting in any way.
Feed Your Head
RealGM
Posts: 25,438
And1: 69,469
Joined: Jun 25, 2006
       

Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1704 » by Feed Your Head » Fri Jan 27, 2023 7:34 pm

I’ll preface this by saying I think Jokic should be MVP as of now. But for the crowd who says Tatum just plays on a loaded team, and has the best second guy in basketball, here’s some fun lineup data. All per CTG, which filters out garbage time.

Jaylen/White on, Tatum off: +7.4, 91st percentile. This pairing has been very good, the rest paints a pretty clear picture.

Tatum on: +8.8, 94th percentile.
Tatum off: -0.4, 47th percentile.

Jaylen on, Tatum off: +1.9, 63th percentile.
Tatum on, Jaylen off: +15.5, 99th percentile.
Jaylen/Tatum both on: +4.9, 82nd percentile.

Jaylen/Brogdon on, Tatum off: -3.7, 29th percentile.
Tatum/Brogdon on, Jaylen off: +16.6, 99th percentile.

Smart/Jaylen/Al on, Tatum off: -2.7, 33rd percentile.
Smart/Tatum/Al on, Jaylen off: +21.9, 99th percentile

Smart/Jaylen on, Tatum off: -2.6, 34th percentile.
Smart/Tatum on, Jaylen off: +25.0, 100th percentile.

Al/Jaylen on, Tatum off: +1.3, 58th percentile.
Al/Tatum on, Jaylen off: +16.0, 99th percentile.

Rob/Jaylen on, Tatum off: +1.9, 63rd percentile.
Rob/Tatum on, Jaylen off: +14.1, 99th percentile.

Tatum on, Rob/Jaylen/Smart/Al off: +12.7, 98th percentile.
User avatar
MarcusBrody
Veteran
Posts: 2,717
And1: 4,393
Joined: May 23, 2013

Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1705 » by MarcusBrody » Fri Jan 27, 2023 8:08 pm

The Comedian wrote:I’ll preface this by saying I think Jokic should be MVP as of now. But for the crowd who says Tatum just plays on a loaded team, and has the best second guy in basketball, here’s some fun lineup data. All per CTG, which filters out garbage time.

Jaylen/White on, Tatum off: +7.4, 91st percentile. This pairing has been very good, the rest paints a pretty clear picture.

Tatum on: +8.8, 94th percentile.
Tatum off: -0.4, 47th percentile.

Jaylen on, Tatum off: +1.9, 63th percentile.
Tatum on, Jaylen off: +15.5, 99th percentile.
Jaylen/Tatum both on: +4.9, 82nd percentile.

Jaylen/Brogdon on, Tatum off: -3.7, 29th percentile.
Tatum/Brogdon on, Jaylen off: +16.6, 99th percentile.

Smart/Jaylen/Al on, Tatum off: -2.7, 33rd percentile.
Smart/Tatum/Al on, Jaylen off: +21.9, 99th percentile

Smart/Jaylen on, Tatum off: -2.6, 34th percentile.
Smart/Tatum on, Jaylen off: +25.0, 100th percentile.

Al/Jaylen on, Tatum off: +1.3, 58th percentile.
Al/Tatum on, Jaylen off: +16.0, 99th percentile.

Rob/Jaylen on, Tatum off: +1.9, 63rd percentile.
Rob/Tatum on, Jaylen off: +14.1, 99th percentile.

Tatum on, Rob/Jaylen/Smart/Al off: +12.7, 98th percentile.


I think looking at lineup data really does solidify Tatum's value. It's interesting, looking at Boston's best 3 person line ups by net rating (and restricting them to common line ups with at least 200 minutes together), you see basically permutations of Horford, Smart, White, and Grant Williams surrounding Tatum, then surrounding Brown (though the top 3 man lineup is actually Horford, White, and G. Williams, the 3rd is Smart, White, and Williams, and the 6th is Smart, Horford, White ). But 4 of the top 7 lineups have Tatum in them, then the 8-10 lineups have Brown, with one having Tatum. Then you have to go to 15 to see another Tatum/Brown lineup.

None of the Celtics most used lineups has a bad net rating, so saying that the Tatum-Brown lineups are ineffective isn't true, but looking at the lineup data, it seems like the Celt's big strength is that they have great secondary players who play well with both stars more than the stars uniquely complementing each other. Though that might have something to do with Tatum and Brown playing together more often against other teams starters vs. playing without the other more often against mixed bench units of other teams as Boston staggers their rest. All the most used lineups have positive Net Ratings.

https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced?CF=MIN*GE*200:GP*G*10&GroupQuantity=3&TeamID=1610612738&dir=D&slug=advanced&sort=NET_RATING
liquidswords
Rookie
Posts: 1,248
And1: 1,245
Joined: May 19, 2021
 

Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1706 » by liquidswords » Fri Jan 27, 2023 8:33 pm

Jadoogar wrote:
liquidswords wrote:Remember when some posters on here didn't take the "media narrative" for MVP seriously? Tatum was #1 in media vote for the all-star game. Its happening right in front of our faces


Is that shocking? He's the best player on the best team in the league. Jaylen Brown was #2 among media for guards. I don't think this impacts MVP voting in any way.


Yes, it is shocking because - again - there have been players objectively better than him this season. There's no way he's #1 in media vote. The media voting results confirm the "best player on the best team" or "x player on best team deserves this" argument which is bull. No way Jaylen Brown should be #2 among guards either. That's a problem lol
Infinite Llamas
RealGM
Posts: 10,624
And1: 24,175
Joined: Jul 22, 2006
Location: Land of Llamas
   

Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1707 » by Infinite Llamas » Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:03 pm

liquidswords wrote:
Jadoogar wrote:
liquidswords wrote:Remember when some posters on here didn't take the "media narrative" for MVP seriously? Tatum was #1 in media vote for the all-star game. Its happening right in front of our faces


Is that shocking? He's the best player on the best team in the league. Jaylen Brown was #2 among media for guards. I don't think this impacts MVP voting in any way.


Yes, it is shocking because - again - there have been players objectively better than him this season. There's no way he's #1 in media vote. The media voting results confirm the "best player on the best team" or "x player on best team deserves this" argument which is bull. No way Jaylen Brown should be #2 among guards either. That's a problem lol


Is that just media vote for the east forwards though? I could have swore Jokic was one for media vote for west frontcourt?
Gerald Green Loves LLamas!
eyeatoma
RealGM
Posts: 29,884
And1: 13,176
Joined: Feb 25, 2005
     

Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1708 » by eyeatoma » Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:25 pm

MVP hype for Embiid once again.

Although ultimately, they'll find some reason not to give it to him. Rinse and repeat with this biased media.



Read on Twitter


Bill Simmons and the Ringer strikes again...

Read on Twitter
Feed Your Head
RealGM
Posts: 25,438
And1: 69,469
Joined: Jun 25, 2006
       

Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1709 » by Feed Your Head » Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:33 pm

eyeatoma wrote:MVP hype for Embiid once again.

Although ultimately, they'll find some reason not to give it to him. Rinse and repeat with this biased media.



Read on Twitter


Bill Simmons and the Ringer strikes again...

Read on Twitter


The media voted Embiid as a starter lol.
eyeatoma
RealGM
Posts: 29,884
And1: 13,176
Joined: Feb 25, 2005
     

Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1710 » by eyeatoma » Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:35 pm

The Comedian wrote:
eyeatoma wrote:MVP hype for Embiid once again.

Although ultimately, they'll find some reason not to give it to him. Rinse and repeat with this biased media.



Read on Twitter


Bill Simmons and the Ringer strikes again...

Read on Twitter


The media voted Embiid as a starter lol.
Doesn't change the fact that they're biased. Tatum shouldn't be as high in the MVP as he is.

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk
Feed Your Head
RealGM
Posts: 25,438
And1: 69,469
Joined: Jun 25, 2006
       

Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1711 » by Feed Your Head » Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:41 pm

eyeatoma wrote:
The Comedian wrote:
eyeatoma wrote:MVP hype for Embiid once again.

Although ultimately, they'll find some reason not to give it to him. Rinse and repeat with this biased media.



Read on Twitter


Bill Simmons and the Ringer strikes again...

Read on Twitter


The media voted Embiid as a starter lol.
Doesn't change the fact that they're biased. Tatum shouldn't be as high in the MVP as he is.

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


:lol: Okay bud, weird how so many non Boston media people have him as one of the mvp favorites. They must have family from Boston or something.
eyeatoma
RealGM
Posts: 29,884
And1: 13,176
Joined: Feb 25, 2005
     

Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1712 » by eyeatoma » Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:47 pm

The Comedian wrote:
eyeatoma wrote:
The Comedian wrote:
The media voted Embiid as a starter lol.
Doesn't change the fact that they're biased. Tatum shouldn't be as high in the MVP as he is.

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


:lol: Okay bud, weird how so many non Boston media people have him as one of the mvp favorites. They must have family from Boston or something.


If you look at how many Ringer staff, and Boston based writers have MVP votes you'll see there's an issue with balance. Many of the writers are also super high on advanced stats. Basically Zach Lowe and his buddies.
Exp0sed
General Manager
Posts: 7,957
And1: 7,400
Joined: Feb 10, 2022

Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1713 » by Exp0sed » Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:49 pm

sounds very reasonable that Celtics media guys are over-represented and biased

but are the players and fans?
Embiid's media and players\fan rank is similar so i don't see what this bias has to do with Embiid
it might explain why Tatum is 1st tho :)

as for Embiid he's been scoring great this season (when he's played) but is it so hard to accept he's just not that popular?

furthermore, apart from high volume efficient scoring (thanks NbA refs!), he is playing a career high 35 mpg and has less than 10 boards per game, that's kind of embrassing for a guy with Embiid's size

for all the talk of his improved playmaking and recognition of double teams, he has 4.1 APG and 3.6 TO..in his prime
it's hard to be an all star starter when so many guys are being ridicilous, someone was gonna be left out and it happened to be Embiid, could have gone another way for sure

the time for talking and crying is over, if he wants to prove his naysayers wrong he needs to do it in the postseason
no more excuses with an elite team built around him
thus far this season, Harden has been consistently bailing him out in the clutch

no1 wants to see stars that do most of their damage from the charity stripe (12 FTA at 86%) while flailing around fishing for fouls
i'm suprised he's as high as he is in the fan vote, tbh
Mickey8
Head Coach
Posts: 6,376
And1: 5,233
Joined: Jan 21, 2017

Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1714 » by Mickey8 » Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:02 am

NBA MVP race: How close behind Nikola Jokic is Joel Embiid?

Nikola Jokic and Joel Embiid are jockeying for the MVP award for a third straight season. Mitchell Leff/Getty Images

When the Denver heads to Philadelphia Saturday for a big matchup on ABC, it will be two-time reigning NBA MVP Nikola Jokic leading his Nuggets against two-time reigning MVP runner-up Joel Embiid and his 76ers in what could be deemed the Battle of the MVPs.

In Year 3 of their personal rivalry for the top regular season award in the NBA, Jokic is currently the odds-on favorite to execute a historic three-peat that would place Jokic in the absolute highest echelon in NBA history alongside the eight other players with at least three MVPs, all of whom easily identifiable by a single name: Jordan. LeBron. Magic. Kareem. Wilt. Russell. Bird. Moses.


According to Caesars Sportsbook, Jokic is -165 to win the MVP. Embiid (+750) is fourth among favorites, trailing Luka Doncic and Jayson Tatum. If we do the math, these odds suggest that Jokic is more than 10 times more likely to win this MVP than Embiid is.

Should he be?

Outside of what a player does on-court, MVP races are often settled based upon the dominant narrative. Coming into this season, it was thought that Jokic would battle a formidable counter-narrative that he "shouldn't" be allowed to join the "one-named three-time MVP club" before he and the Nuggets have won at least one NBA title.

However, after continuing to play at MVP level for more than half the season and, more importantly, leading the Nuggets to the best record and top seed in the Western Conference, Jokic has received a counter-counter-narrative boost. The new prevailing sentiment that has made him the odds-on favorite to win centers around the thought that, if he can play at that level and lead his team to the top of the heap, no outdated mode of thinking about needing a ring should disqualify Jokic from winning again.

That counter-counter-narrative is, again, strongly dependent upon Jokic's position as the candidate with the best clear combination of video game production and team success. Luka Doncic is considered to have production on Jokic's level, but the Mavericks don't have the team success. The Celtics do have the team success, but the perception is that Jayson Tatum doesn't have quite the same level of production as Jokic.

Interestingly, according to ESPN's impact stat Real Plus Minus, Tatum has actually been the highest impact player in the NBA thus far by both RPM and RPM Wins, so perception may not match reality, but right now perception rules the day.

Then, there's Embiid.

EDITOR'S PICKS

Fantasy 30: Updates on LeBron James, Trae Young and Nikola Vucevic
1dEric Moody

Waiver wire pickups: Look to Cameron Johnson and Bruce Brown
4dJim McCormick

Roundtable: Which teams have the best, worst schedules during the fantasy basketball playoffs?
2dESPN Fantasy
While Jokic is nearly averaging a triple-double at 25.1 PPG, 11.0 RPG and 9.9 APG, Embiid counters by leading the NBA in scoring as part of his 33.4 PPG, 9.8 RPG, 4.1 APG statline. Jokic has an absurd signature game of the season thus far with a 40-point, 27-rebound, 10-assist triple-double. But again, Embiid matches that with a just as memorable 59-point, 11-rebound, 8-assist, 7-blocks performance.

And while Jokic's Nuggets lead the Western Conference with a 34-15 record, Embiid's 76ers very quietly has moved into the second-best record in the Eastern Conference and third-best record in the NBA at 31-16 with the longest current win streak in the NBA at six games and counting.

This doesn't look like a competition where one player should be 10-times more likely to win than the other, but let's dig deeper.

In recent weeks, I've detailed how central Jokic is to the offense of the Nuggets, and also how the 76ers' offensive attack is built around Embiid, utilizing scouting software to cement the cases. Simply, Jokic is the best passing big man of his generation (perhaps of all-time) while simultaneously possessing one of the best, most efficient jump shots of all time, a combo of which allows him to create team-offense and generate spacing that makes life easier on his teammates to a league-best degree.

Embiid, on the other hand, is one of the dominant ISO players in the NBA, and is able to draw so much defensive attention with his ability to score that it opens up his team full of shooters and strong 1-on-1 players to get easy looks and/or attack imbalanced defenses. The scouting analytics support these statements, but it is easily summarized by the impact data, with Jokic and Embiid ranking 1-2 among centers in offensive RPM.

But, what about on the other end of the court?

While Embiid's 76ers have the sixth-best team defensive rating in the NBA, a fraction of a point outside the top-5, Jokic's Nuggets are 15th in the league, right in the middle of the pack. Scouting analytics again help us break down the extent of each player's defensive prowess. According to Second Spectrum, Embiid allows only 0.75 points per chance to opponents as the ballhandler defender in Isolations, the 11th best mark in the NBA (among players to defend at least 50 isolations). Jokic, on the other hand, allows 0.99 points per chance to rank 123rd.

Similarly, when defending the most common set in the NBA -- the pick-and-roll/pop -- Embiid has allowed 0.88 points per chance as the screener defender in on-ball picks to rank 9th in the NBA (among 113 players to defend at least 250 picks), while Jokic allows 0.96 points per chance to rank 48th.

In fact, as the closest defender on all shots, per Second Spectrum Embiid ranks 26th (among 94 players to defend at least 450 shots) by allowing a 52.1 EFG% while Jokic ranks 75th of 94 by allowing a 57.1 EFG%.

It's easy to see and demonstrate that Embiid is the better defender of the two. It should be noted that, despite Embiid's defensive advantages, Jokic still ranks slightly ahead in impact as measured by RPM. These two always measure very similarly in RPM; they finished 6th and 7th in a virtual tie in Jokic's first MVP season of 2020-21, 1st and 2nd last season, and are currently 2nd and 5th this season... though it should be noted that Jokic's 8.3 RPM and Embiid's 7.7 are closer together than second-place Jokic is to first place Tatum (9.6 RPM).

But, Embiid's defensive advantage speaks to a larger narrative point: the postseason is much more about defense and 1-on-1 mismatches than the regular season. And, Jokic's effectiveness went down in both the 2020 and 2021 playoffs in series against Anthony Davis and Deandre Ayton, respectively.

Embiid, meanwhile, has been just as individually dominant in the postseason as in the regular season in recent seasons, as long as he was healthy.

While the MVP is a regular season award, the initial questions about Jokic winning three straight before winning a ring could re-surface if the race comes down to the wire between he and Embiid for a third straight season.

And therein lies the rub. Jokic is a very deserving MVP candidate this season. In fantasy basketball, he's the undisputed king, the best fantasy producer on both a per-game basis and overall.

But, in the MVP race, Embiid has strong arguments as well that could get stronger as the season goes along. If he stays healthy and gets the 76ers into the No. 1 seed in the East, Embiid will have the stats, the team success and likely his own powerful narratives.

And, returning to the futures angle, I agree that Jokic actually should be favored over Embiid as they enter Saturday's game. But, there's no way that he's 11 times more deserving of the award than Embiid right now, and if he stays healthy I think Embiid's case will only get better from here. I look forward to watching the Battle of the MVPs on the court on Saturday.

In my futures bets, I'm currently backing the underdog as the better value than the odds-on favorite.

;ab_channel=NBAonESPN

ESPN on the mission to lift their guy as the leading candidate for the MVP award , just before the meaningless none conference season game :lol: If he dominates Jokic its going to be a gotcha narrative, again I don't think Jokic should be the MVP front runner this season. But Embiid doesn't deserves it over Luka either and I don't think he will win it this season.
eyeatoma
RealGM
Posts: 29,884
And1: 13,176
Joined: Feb 25, 2005
     

Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1715 » by eyeatoma » Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:14 am

Mickey8 wrote:
NBA MVP race: How close behind Nikola Jokic is Joel Embiid?

Nikola Jokic and Joel Embiid are jockeying for the MVP award for a third straight season. Mitchell Leff/Getty Images

When the Denver heads to Philadelphia Saturday for a big matchup on ABC, it will be two-time reigning NBA MVP Nikola Jokic leading his Nuggets against two-time reigning MVP runner-up Joel Embiid and his 76ers in what could be deemed the Battle of the MVPs.

In Year 3 of their personal rivalry for the top regular season award in the NBA, Jokic is currently the odds-on favorite to execute a historic three-peat that would place Jokic in the absolute highest echelon in NBA history alongside the eight other players with at least three MVPs, all of whom easily identifiable by a single name: Jordan. LeBron. Magic. Kareem. Wilt. Russell. Bird. Moses.


According to Caesars Sportsbook, Jokic is -165 to win the MVP. Embiid (+750) is fourth among favorites, trailing Luka Doncic and Jayson Tatum. If we do the math, these odds suggest that Jokic is more than 10 times more likely to win this MVP than Embiid is.

Should he be?

Outside of what a player does on-court, MVP races are often settled based upon the dominant narrative. Coming into this season, it was thought that Jokic would battle a formidable counter-narrative that he "shouldn't" be allowed to join the "one-named three-time MVP club" before he and the Nuggets have won at least one NBA title.

However, after continuing to play at MVP level for more than half the season and, more importantly, leading the Nuggets to the best record and top seed in the Western Conference, Jokic has received a counter-counter-narrative boost. The new prevailing sentiment that has made him the odds-on favorite to win centers around the thought that, if he can play at that level and lead his team to the top of the heap, no outdated mode of thinking about needing a ring should disqualify Jokic from winning again.

That counter-counter-narrative is, again, strongly dependent upon Jokic's position as the candidate with the best clear combination of video game production and team success. Luka Doncic is considered to have production on Jokic's level, but the Mavericks don't have the team success. The Celtics do have the team success, but the perception is that Jayson Tatum doesn't have quite the same level of production as Jokic.

Interestingly, according to ESPN's impact stat Real Plus Minus, Tatum has actually been the highest impact player in the NBA thus far by both RPM and RPM Wins, so perception may not match reality, but right now perception rules the day.

Then, there's Embiid.

EDITOR'S PICKS

Fantasy 30: Updates on LeBron James, Trae Young and Nikola Vucevic
1dEric Moody

Waiver wire pickups: Look to Cameron Johnson and Bruce Brown
4dJim McCormick

Roundtable: Which teams have the best, worst schedules during the fantasy basketball playoffs?
2dESPN Fantasy
While Jokic is nearly averaging a triple-double at 25.1 PPG, 11.0 RPG and 9.9 APG, Embiid counters by leading the NBA in scoring as part of his 33.4 PPG, 9.8 RPG, 4.1 APG statline. Jokic has an absurd signature game of the season thus far with a 40-point, 27-rebound, 10-assist triple-double. But again, Embiid matches that with a just as memorable 59-point, 11-rebound, 8-assist, 7-blocks performance.

And while Jokic's Nuggets lead the Western Conference with a 34-15 record, Embiid's 76ers very quietly has moved into the second-best record in the Eastern Conference and third-best record in the NBA at 31-16 with the longest current win streak in the NBA at six games and counting.

This doesn't look like a competition where one player should be 10-times more likely to win than the other, but let's dig deeper.

In recent weeks, I've detailed how central Jokic is to the offense of the Nuggets, and also how the 76ers' offensive attack is built around Embiid, utilizing scouting software to cement the cases. Simply, Jokic is the best passing big man of his generation (perhaps of all-time) while simultaneously possessing one of the best, most efficient jump shots of all time, a combo of which allows him to create team-offense and generate spacing that makes life easier on his teammates to a league-best degree.

Embiid, on the other hand, is one of the dominant ISO players in the NBA, and is able to draw so much defensive attention with his ability to score that it opens up his team full of shooters and strong 1-on-1 players to get easy looks and/or attack imbalanced defenses. The scouting analytics support these statements, but it is easily summarized by the impact data, with Jokic and Embiid ranking 1-2 among centers in offensive RPM.

But, what about on the other end of the court?

While Embiid's 76ers have the sixth-best team defensive rating in the NBA, a fraction of a point outside the top-5, Jokic's Nuggets are 15th in the league, right in the middle of the pack. Scouting analytics again help us break down the extent of each player's defensive prowess. According to Second Spectrum, Embiid allows only 0.75 points per chance to opponents as the ballhandler defender in Isolations, the 11th best mark in the NBA (among players to defend at least 50 isolations). Jokic, on the other hand, allows 0.99 points per chance to rank 123rd.

Similarly, when defending the most common set in the NBA -- the pick-and-roll/pop -- Embiid has allowed 0.88 points per chance as the screener defender in on-ball picks to rank 9th in the NBA (among 113 players to defend at least 250 picks), while Jokic allows 0.96 points per chance to rank 48th.

In fact, as the closest defender on all shots, per Second Spectrum Embiid ranks 26th (among 94 players to defend at least 450 shots) by allowing a 52.1 EFG% while Jokic ranks 75th of 94 by allowing a 57.1 EFG%.

It's easy to see and demonstrate that Embiid is the better defender of the two. It should be noted that, despite Embiid's defensive advantages, Jokic still ranks slightly ahead in impact as measured by RPM. These two always measure very similarly in RPM; they finished 6th and 7th in a virtual tie in Jokic's first MVP season of 2020-21, 1st and 2nd last season, and are currently 2nd and 5th this season... though it should be noted that Jokic's 8.3 RPM and Embiid's 7.7 are closer together than second-place Jokic is to first place Tatum (9.6 RPM).

But, Embiid's defensive advantage speaks to a larger narrative point: the postseason is much more about defense and 1-on-1 mismatches than the regular season. And, Jokic's effectiveness went down in both the 2020 and 2021 playoffs in series against Anthony Davis and Deandre Ayton, respectively.

Embiid, meanwhile, has been just as individually dominant in the postseason as in the regular season in recent seasons, as long as he was healthy.

While the MVP is a regular season award, the initial questions about Jokic winning three straight before winning a ring could re-surface if the race comes down to the wire between he and Embiid for a third straight season.

And therein lies the rub. Jokic is a very deserving MVP candidate this season. In fantasy basketball, he's the undisputed king, the best fantasy producer on both a per-game basis and overall.

But, in the MVP race, Embiid has strong arguments as well that could get stronger as the season goes along. If he stays healthy and gets the 76ers into the No. 1 seed in the East, Embiid will have the stats, the team success and likely his own powerful narratives.

And, returning to the futures angle, I agree that Jokic actually should be favored over Embiid as they enter Saturday's game. But, there's no way that he's 11 times more deserving of the award than Embiid right now, and if he stays healthy I think Embiid's case will only get better from here. I look forward to watching the Battle of the MVPs on the court on Saturday.

In my futures bets, I'm currently backing the underdog as the better value than the odds-on favorite.

;ab_channel=NBAonESPN

ESPN on the mission to lift their guy as the leading candidate for the MVP award , just before the meaningless none conference season game :lol: If he dominates Jokic its going to be a gotcha narrative, again I don't think Jokic should be the MVP front runner this season. But Embiid doesn't deserves it over Luka either and I don't think he will win it this season.


Link on this article?
eyeatoma
RealGM
Posts: 29,884
And1: 13,176
Joined: Feb 25, 2005
     

Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1717 » by eyeatoma » Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:21 am

Exp0sed wrote:sounds very reasonable that Celtics media guys are over-represented and biased

but are the players and fans?
Embiid's media and players\fan rank is similar so i don't see what this bias has to do with Embiid
it might explain why Tatum is 1st tho :)

as for Embiid he's been scoring great this season (when he's played) but is it so hard to accept he's just not that popular?

furthermore, apart from high volume efficient scoring (thanks NbA refs!), he is playing a career high 35 mpg and has less than 10 boards per game, that's kind of embrassing for a guy with Embiid's size

for all the talk of his improved playmaking and recognition of double teams, he has 4.1 APG and 3.6 TO..in his prime
it's hard to be an all star starter when so many guys are being ridicilous, someone was gonna be left out and it happened to be Embiid, could have gone another way for sure

the time for talking and crying is over, if he wants to prove his naysayers wrong he needs to do it in the postseason
no more excuses with an elite team built around him
thus far this season, Harden has been consistently bailing him out in the clutch

no1 wants to see stars that do most of their damage from the charity stripe (12 FTA at 86%) while flailing around fishing for fouls
i'm suprised he's as high as he is in the fan vote, tbh


I agree with the popularity thing. I also think there are more Boston fans, then Philly fans. So they see Tatum as an MVP candidate, you're giong to get more votes.

in the end the fan vote should not have that much cache. The players knew what was up. Most of the media did as well, sans the boston lovers.

Jokic also needs to prove it. Has his team in 1st. If he doesn't make the finals and wins the chip, his MVPs are absolute shams.
User avatar
ForeverTFC
RealGM
Posts: 18,017
And1: 19,691
Joined: Dec 07, 2004
         

Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1718 » by ForeverTFC » Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:58 am

eyeatoma wrote:
The Comedian wrote:
eyeatoma wrote:Doesn't change the fact that they're biased. Tatum shouldn't be as high in the MVP as he is.

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


:lol: Okay bud, weird how so many non Boston media people have him as one of the mvp favorites. They must have family from Boston or something.


If you look at how many Ringer staff, and Boston based writers have MVP votes you'll see there's an issue with balance. Many of the writers are also super high on advanced stats. Basically Zach Lowe and his buddies.


:lol: :lol:

"The geeks and the Boston people are hurting my favorite player's feelings :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: "
rocketsfan100
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,864
And1: 3,354
Joined: Nov 10, 2017
         

Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1719 » by rocketsfan100 » Sat Jan 28, 2023 2:26 am

The Sixers have two guys in the top 8 MVP race. Joel at 2 and Harden has moved into the top 8 according to nba.com…. Impressive considering harden and Joel have missed time
Mickey8
Head Coach
Posts: 6,376
And1: 5,233
Joined: Jan 21, 2017

Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1720 » by Mickey8 » Sat Jan 28, 2023 2:35 am

They have solid depth.

Return to The General Board