NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2023-24

[Cubbies2120]

And you can spin it to just “a bad game”, when it was one of the worst games for any MVP candidate in recent memory.

But at the end of the day, Jokic is still the best player on the planet.

9 for 32? And blew a double digit lead to the mediocre clippers and you come here and say he’s the best player on the planet?

Jokic plays 1 side of the ball, can’t be the best player in the league playing one side of the ball, he is absolutely terrible on defense and this is evident. EVERY TIME he goes against a half decent center that center ALWAYS puts up monsters numbers.

let’s look at some match ups….

Sabonis 17pts 15 rbs 7ast Loss

Nurkic 31pts 6rbs 2ast

Sengun 22pts 7rbs 4ast

Sengun 21pts 15rbs 8ast Loss

Jonas 22pts 8rbs 3ast Loss

Sengun 23pts 8rbs 5ast Loss

Kessler 22pts 13rbs

Vucevic 19pts 7rbs 3ast

And some of these centers aren’t that great, like I said some of these guys are only half decent.
Defensively he just isn’t MVP caliber, obviously offensively that an entire different story but because of his defense you can’t say he’s the best player on the planet. The only way that this could be true is if you completely ignore defense all together and only blindly care about offense which I’m not even convinced he’s a better offensive player than Embiid.

Shhh... It's sacrilege to say this stuff around these parts. People not talking about Jokic as their savior on here are persecuted like people from the Salem witch hunt trials.

See sig...these were literally your words. I guess a 20 game sample size changes your mind? Or rather, a 1 game sample size? What do we say about people who have their mind changed so quickly? There's a word for that, I'm sure we can find what that is

Because going from "Jokic is the best player in the world" - eyeatoma (your quote, I didn't login to your account and write it for you)...what changed in the 20 games they've both played since? What specifically made you completely re-evaluate your decision from last year's Finals, to the first ~20 or so games of the season (and Jokic's bad game last night)?

Because if you're setting the precedent of changing your mind every 20 games (or 1 game), then that means the best in the world can change from game to game...and we never get a consensus...?

[Cubbies2120]

These posts about the highest career PPG or fastest to 10k points are ridiculous without context.
Embiid basically skipped his first 3 seasons and started his career with his body fully grown up and himself fully adjusted to USA, Philly and the NBA.
Other 18y future superstars struggle in their rookie and sophomore years because their bodies still change, they try to gain muscle, adapt to their new country/city etc while they are also playing basketball. Giannis passed those years, Wemby is dealing with the same right now and a million other players also do.

And it's not just that. Embiid has never played more than 68 games in his career. Had countless periods of minute restriction, skipped most of the b2bs in his way etc.

Embiid missed his first two seasons. That said, if he is the fastest to reach that for all eras, that is very impressive.

On one hand, he's never gonna set "First to X" marks.

On the other hand, he had the benefit of 2.5 seasons of access to NBA facilities, the best trainers, the best of literally everything...before it got to impact his 'Career PPG', 'Career PER', etc.

There's a tradeoff...

Now if he was injured those 2 years and NEVER got to practice, I'd see your point. Because access to resources matters (ask anyone who didn't come from a privileged background - or if you didn't come from one, you'd know it yourself as well, so I'd be surprised you'd argue otherwise).

Let's take two twins:

Twin A gets drafted by an NBA team, gets access to their resources for 2.5 years. Twin A has a rebounder, a trainer, a nutritionist, etc.

Twin B gets drafted by an NBA team, but they say "Nah you don't get access to anything for the first 2.5 years, go practice in a street court, make your own food, find a Planet Fitness or something"...

Both step onto the court after 2.5 years - whose "Career PPG and Career PER" are likely to be better? Interested in your take. A simple answer of 'Twin A' or 'Twin B' would be fine if you don't wanna type a lot. We can debate it after you take a stance.

[Cubbies2120]

I love this. They are all coming out of the woodwork. I love it. Because these type of games happen maybe once a year or two. Yes this is Jokic worse game since he became a superstar. I am mean 9 for 32. lol. So soak it up. There won’t be many of these games from Jokic the most consistent star out there.

Perhaps you don't know what that phrase means. No one is coming out of the woodwork, myself and few others have been here the whole time.

I'd like to ask you a few questions:

1. What is the ultimate goal of an NBA franchise and an NBA player? My answer, to win a ring, but open to your take.
2. What do you value more - a history of bad playoff performances, or a single terrible shooting performance in a regular season game (with a triple double)?

Because anyone can have a terrible shooting night (ask "Top 10 Kobe Bryant", who shot 25% in a Finals clincher...but people said "Well he had X assists and 15 rebounds!!!") - but I'm open for a debate! We chat here enough that we should encourage each other to express their views.

My view: A long history of playing really well in the Playoffs and having no real "stinkers" supersedes a singular terrible shooting game (while playmaking for your team as well, and rebounding). But that's my opinion - I'd like to hear yours!

[Special_Puppy]

What was Jokic pnr defense in the playoffs? You know when the games mattered? If he was so terrible on defense then why didn’t he get exploited in the playoffs last season??. Or let me guess you didn’t bother to watch the playoffs past the second round.

Brother I’m not gonna explain this to you. I watch almost every game that is nationally televised just as I watched Jokic suck it up last night on espn. I watched almost every playoff game last season. There are even TV’s at my job so I can watch the games there.

Instead of me explaining to you why Jokic is a terrible defender just go on YouTube and type in “Jokic bad defense” you will find about a thousand videos of Jokic getting Cooked on defense. There are literally hundreds of videos some even 10 minutes long. I just don’t know how to get this through your scull, Jokic is a poor defender it just is what it is.

So compilations of the worst aspect of someone's game tell the story? Can you find me a compilation of his bad defense in the playoffs last year? Or do you put together 100 plays over the course of 20,000 plays of a players career to spin a narrative maybe? Idk, I'm just asking the question.

It drives people crazy that advanced stats actually kinda like Jokic's defense lol. He's one of the best rebounders in the world. He contests a ton of shots on average efficiency. He does well in defensive RAPM.

[kuclas]

These posts about the highest career PPG or fastest to 10k points are ridiculous without context.
Embiid basically skipped his first 3 seasons and started his career with his body fully grown up and himself fully adjusted to USA, Philly and the NBA.
Other 18y future superstars struggle in their rookie and sophomore years because their bodies still change, they try to gain muscle, adapt to their new country/city etc while they are also playing basketball. Giannis passed those years, Wemby is dealing with the same right now and a million other players also do.

And it's not just that. Embiid has never played more than 68 games in his career. Had countless periods of minute restriction, skipped most of the b2bs in his way etc.

Embiid missed his first two seasons. That said, if he is the fastest to reach that for all eras, that is very impressive.

On one hand, he's never gonna set "First to X" marks.

On the other hand, he had the benefit of 2.5 seasons of access to NBA facilities, the best trainers, the best of literally everything...before it got to impact his 'Career PPG', 'Career PER', etc.

There's a tradeoff...

Now if he was injured those 2 years and NEVER got to practice, I'd see your point. Because access to resources matters (ask anyone who didn't come from a privileged background - or if you didn't come from one, you'd know it yourself as well, so I'd be surprised you'd argue otherwise).

Let's take two twins:

Twin A gets drafted by an NBA team, gets access to their resources for 2.5 years. Twin A has a rebounder, a trainer, a nutritionist, etc.

Twin B gets drafted by an NBA team, but they say "Nah you don't get access to anything for the first 2.5 years, go practice in a street court, make your own food, find a Planet Fitness or something"...

Both step onto the court after 2.5 years - whose "Career PPG and Career PER" are likely to be better? Interested in your take. A simple answer of 'Twin A' or 'Twin B' would be fine if you don't wanna type a lot. We can debate it after you take a stance.

It’s up to the individual to improve themselves while out with major injuries especially while young.

Just to name a couple of guys who essentially got red shirt years (more than one years ) to improve themselves while injured

1. Ben Simmons
2. Zion Williamson

Those guys had Lower body injuries. Nothing to preclude them from working on free throws or even mid range jumpers in the gym. Obviously Simmons is a nut case

But Williamson hasn’t improve in the mid range game either. They should spend hours in the gym when injured young. But they don’t.

[Hobo4President]

You say that's all well and good, but then go on to say the same thing lol.

If Embiid is not hurt, and he has a different coach, and he has co stars that will shoot and not choke they will get past the 2nd round. None of those conditions have ever been meet all at once.

This isn't that hard to get.

I've also said in the past, if all of the conditions do happen,and he still loses, then yeah, he's not that amazing. Will go down as a great regular season player and that will be it.

Yeah I'm saying that's all well and good because while I acknowledge he has had teammates that underperform or are more to blame for losing I don't think it's completely to explain his own performance. We've seen other superstars with worse supporting casts have insane impact in the post season before. The fact his scoring and efficiency both plummet isn't a good sign, typically the superstars on bad teams will have a dip in efficiency but will have a lift in their USG% and scoring.

Were those superstar players constantly injured during the playoffs?

I mean hardly anyone is injured as much as Embiid but from memory Doncic a couple years ago was a monster after missing games due to injury.

[Cubbies2120]

Embiid missed his first two seasons. That said, if he is the fastest to reach that for all eras, that is very impressive.

On one hand, he's never gonna set "First to X" marks.

On the other hand, he had the benefit of 2.5 seasons of access to NBA facilities, the best trainers, the best of literally everything...before it got to impact his 'Career PPG', 'Career PER', etc.

There's a tradeoff...

Now if he was injured those 2 years and NEVER got to practice, I'd see your point. Because access to resources matters (ask anyone who didn't come from a privileged background - or if you didn't come from one, you'd know it yourself as well, so I'd be surprised you'd argue otherwise).

Let's take two twins:

Twin A gets drafted by an NBA team, gets access to their resources for 2.5 years. Twin A has a rebounder, a trainer, a nutritionist, etc.

Twin B gets drafted by an NBA team, but they say "Nah you don't get access to anything for the first 2.5 years, go practice in a street court, make your own food, find a Planet Fitness or something"...

Both step onto the court after 2.5 years - whose "Career PPG and Career PER" are likely to be better? Interested in your take. A simple answer of 'Twin A' or 'Twin B' would be fine if you don't wanna type a lot. We can debate it after you take a stance.

It’s up to the individual to improve themselves while out with major injuries especially while young.

Just to name a couple of guys who essentially got red shirt years (more than one years ) to improve themselves while injured

1. Ben Simmons
2. Zion Williamson

Those guys had Lower body injuries. Nothing to preclude them from working on free throws or even mid range jumpers in the gym. Obviously Simmons is a nut case

But Williamson hasn’t improve in the mid range game either. They should spend hours in the gym when injured young. But they don’t.

Oh, absolutely. I agree.

Let me add the ambition level to both of those Twins then.

Both have the same ambition.

Both work out 5h a day on average (training, shooting, cardio, etc.)

Given that those factors are the same, which one will be better setup for success? I'd argue the one with better access to resources.

[Hussien Fatal]

What was Jokic pnr defense in the playoffs? You know when the games mattered? If he was so terrible on defense then why didn’t he get exploited in the playoffs last season??. Or let me guess you didn’t bother to watch the playoffs past the second round.

Brother I’m not gonna explain this to you. I watch almost every game that is nationally televised just as I watched Jokic suck it up last night on espn. I watched almost every playoff game last season. There are even TV’s at my job so I can watch the games there.

Instead of me explaining to you why Jokic is a terrible defender just go on YouTube and type in “Jokic bad defense” you will find about a thousand videos of Jokic getting Cooked on defense. There are literally hundreds of videos some even 10 minutes long. I just don’t know how to get this through your scull, Jokic is a poor defender it just is what it is.

So compilations of the worst aspect of someone's game tell the story? Can you find me a compilation of his bad defense in the playoffs last year? Or do you put together 100 plays over the course of 20,000 plays of a players career to spin a narrative maybe? Idk, I'm just asking the question.

Let's follow a logical exercise really quickly:
1. A block stops a shot from going in 99.9% of the time (there's 0.1% chance of it going in still, roughly) - Yes or no?
Good, glad you agree!
2. Not taking a shot means you cannot score a point. Agree? You have to take a shot, whether it's a FGA or FTA? I agree, do you agree?
3. Taking the ball out of play ensures that a shot is not taken. So when a player is back-cutting, and you kick the ball - that stops a high percentage move (layup). Agree or disagree? Well, it's not a statistic, but it acts like a block where the other team recovers ball, because it stopped a shot attempt. A shot attempt is required to make a point. Who led the league in deflections? Who has more game-winning or game-saving blocks (highest leverage play on defense, the most crucial time) in the past 3 years?

I'm just asking the questions, I'm not gonna preach to you. I know the answer, but I want to bring you along the journey

Re: Using compilations of a specific type of play...do you understand how data and databases work? I'd love to educate you, if you say you'd like to learn

You know someone could put together a compilation of all the missed free throws Embiid has, or lets say just 10% of all his career missed free throws, put together a compilation, and make it 20 minutes long? Then you'd be able to type in Embiid [pick whatever bad attribute] and it would be a nice long video?

Just because someone hasn't spent precious time of their life to do that, doesn't mean it can't be done. Makes you wonder why someone is spending time making compilations like that, eh? When you could do the same thing for every player.

I'd say results matter the most, and when your result is accomplishing the ultimate goal (championship as a team)...well, it's better than the words ("I WANT to win a championship"), because hey, actions speak louder than words IMO. But that's just me

There is more than 100 plays of Jokic playing terrible defense, like I said there are about 100 videos of him playing terrible defense in the playoffs and in the regular season. Like I said go search his defensive short comings and you will find many many videos breaking down his awful defense.

And you bring up embiids missed free throws but he’s a better freethrow shooter than Jokic and currently he is shooting a career high at 88%.

And I’m not positive Jokic led the league in deflections the last 3 years neither am I positive he has the most game saving blocks in the last 3 years. Show me the data if this is true.

[Cubbies2120]

Yeah I'm saying that's all well and good because while I acknowledge he has had teammates that underperform or are more to blame for losing I don't think it's completely to explain his own performance. We've seen other superstars with worse supporting casts have insane impact in the post season before. The fact his scoring and efficiency both plummet isn't a good sign, typically the superstars on bad teams will have a dip in efficiency but will have a lift in their USG% and scoring.

Were those superstar players constantly injured during the playoffs?

I mean hardly anyone is injured as much as Embiid but from memory Doncic a couple years ago was a monster after missing games due to injury.

Yep. And that sounds like a physical weakness.

Here's the part about arguing "Injuries make it so poor play doesn't count":

Jokic Physical Disadvantages: Slower, lower vertical, stronger
Jokic Physical Advantages: Better hands, Less prone to injury, fractures, etc.

Embiid Physical Disadvantages: Worse hands, more prone to injury, fractures, etc.
Embiid Physical Advantages: Faster, higher vertical

It's like when you 'create a player': You choose where you put the attributes. If Embiid was never injured (a physical trait pre-disposes him), why don't we give him other fictitious physical traits too while we're in fantasyland - He's as fast as De'Aaron Fox, and shoots like Curry!

You can't say "Well, [x] injury excuses his poor play", because injury prone-ness is a 'flaw' in his 'build', just like Jokic has a 'flaw' in his build (slower foot speed). If you're gonna excuse one [injury caused poor play], then you gotta excuse the other too. But nobody gives Jokic a pass for his slow foot speed, lol.

So nah, Embiid is who he is - a GREAT, but injury prone player. Maybe it's Jokic's 'fatness' that allows him to play through injury, absorb more contact, etc. - maybe if Embiid gained 30 lbs of fat he wouldn't be injured as much, BUT HE'D HAVE SLOWER FOOT SPEED.

[Cubbies2120]

Brother I’m not gonna explain this to you. I watch almost every game that is nationally televised just as I watched Jokic suck it up last night on espn. I watched almost every playoff game last season. There are even TV’s at my job so I can watch the games there.

Instead of me explaining to you why Jokic is a terrible defender just go on YouTube and type in “Jokic bad defense” you will find about a thousand videos of Jokic getting Cooked on defense. There are literally hundreds of videos some even 10 minutes long. I just don’t know how to get this through your scull, Jokic is a poor defender it just is what it is.

So compilations of the worst aspect of someone's game tell the story? Can you find me a compilation of his bad defense in the playoffs last year? Or do you put together 100 plays over the course of 20,000 plays of a players career to spin a narrative maybe? Idk, I'm just asking the question.

Let's follow a logical exercise really quickly:
1. A block stops a shot from going in 99.9% of the time (there's 0.1% chance of it going in still, roughly) - Yes or no?
Good, glad you agree!
2. Not taking a shot means you cannot score a point. Agree? You have to take a shot, whether it's a FGA or FTA? I agree, do you agree?
3. Taking the ball out of play ensures that a shot is not taken. So when a player is back-cutting, and you kick the ball - that stops a high percentage move (layup). Agree or disagree? Well, it's not a statistic, but it acts like a block where the other team recovers ball, because it stopped a shot attempt. A shot attempt is required to make a point. Who led the league in deflections? Who has more game-winning or game-saving blocks (highest leverage play on defense, the most crucial time) in the past 3 years?

I'm just asking the questions, I'm not gonna preach to you. I know the answer, but I want to bring you along the journey

Re: Using compilations of a specific type of play...do you understand how data and databases work? I'd love to educate you, if you say you'd like to learn

You know someone could put together a compilation of all the missed free throws Embiid has, or lets say just 10% of all his career missed free throws, put together a compilation, and make it 20 minutes long? Then you'd be able to type in Embiid [pick whatever bad attribute] and it would be a nice long video?

Just because someone hasn't spent precious time of their life to do that, doesn't mean it can't be done. Makes you wonder why someone is spending time making compilations like that, eh? When you could do the same thing for every player.

I'd say results matter the most, and when your result is accomplishing the ultimate goal (championship as a team)...well, it's better than the words ("I WANT to win a championship"), because hey, actions speak louder than words IMO. But that's just me

There is more than 100 plays of Jokic playing terrible defense, like I said there are about 100 videos of him playing terrible defense in the playoffs and in the regular season. Like I said go search his defensive short comings and you will find many many videos breaking down his awful defense.

And you bring up embiids missed free throws but he’s a better freethrow shooter than Jokic and currently he is shooting a career high at 88%.

And I’m not positive Jokic led the league in deflections the last 3 years neither am I positive he has the most game saving blocks in the last 3 years. Show me the data if this is true.

Wait a sec, why do you get to make claims, it's on ME to research them ("Go look at the youtube videos"), but when I make claims, I have to go bring YOU the data?

No sir, we are both making claims. I'm not going searching for your evidence, that may or may not exist. You claim there are hundreds more plays, you made the claim first. Show me the data if this is true. Make sure the videos aren't double counting too - posting a youtube link doesn't work.

FIRST: Embiid is not an 88% FT shooter. He is an 82% FT shooter over a huge sample size, and an 88% FT shooter in a 17 game sample size. I prefer large sample sizes, but then again I'm a data guy (and so is the NBA with the turn to analytics).

Here's an easily verifiable claim (use bbref as an example):
Point 1: Embiid has missed over 800 free throws (reg season + playoffs)
Point 2: 800 free throws would be a LONG compilation. Average free throw duration of Embiid is about 8 seconds. You could make an hour 45 minute compilation of it, and then someone would be able to say "Hey, look, there's an almost 2 hour video sample size of Embiid shooting free throws and bricking!"

See the flaw in your logic ? I'm open to your emotional arguments, but I prefer logical ones. I'd love to educate you more on sample size and the importance of it when using statistics, if you're open to it!

[daschysta]

How many games do the Pacers need to win for Hali to have a shot?

[eyeatoma]

How many games do the Pacers need to win for Hali to have a shot?

I think he already does.

Sent from my SM-S918B using Tapatalk

[Cubbies2120]

Damn, pretty crazy that Jokic has no teammates in the top 50 in PPG.

#55 MPJ
#93 Reggie Jackson

https://www.nba.com/stats/leaders

Haliburton is in the same boat. Even worse of a boat, actually. His 2nd scorer is #98 in the NBA lol.

Those two are cut from a different cloth being in that MVP race with no other truly 'elite' scorers, or assist makers either...

[RRR3]

LeBron really needs to be in the poll

[eyeatoma]

9 for 32? And blew a double digit lead to the mediocre clippers and you come here and say he’s the best player on the planet?

Jokic plays 1 side of the ball, can’t be the best player in the league playing one side of the ball, he is absolutely terrible on defense and this is evident. EVERY TIME he goes against a half decent center that center ALWAYS puts up monsters numbers.

let’s look at some match ups….

Sabonis 17pts 15 rbs 7ast Loss

Nurkic 31pts 6rbs 2ast

Sengun 22pts 7rbs 4ast

Sengun 21pts 15rbs 8ast Loss

Jonas 22pts 8rbs 3ast Loss

Sengun 23pts 8rbs 5ast Loss

Kessler 22pts 13rbs

Vucevic 19pts 7rbs 3ast

And some of these centers aren’t that great, like I said some of these guys are only half decent.
Defensively he just isn’t MVP caliber, obviously offensively that an entire different story but because of his defense you can’t say he’s the best player on the planet. The only way that this could be true is if you completely ignore defense all together and only blindly care about offense which I’m not even convinced he’s a better offensive player than Embiid.

Shhh... It's sacrilege to say this stuff around these parts. People not talking about Jokic as their savior on here are persecuted like people from the Salem witch hunt trials.

See sig...these were literally your words. I guess a 20 game sample size changes your mind? Or rather, a 1 game sample size? What do we say about people who have their mind changed so quickly? There's a word for that, I'm sure we can find what that is

Because going from "Jokic is the best player in the world" - eyeatoma (your quote, I didn't login to your account and write it for you)...what changed in the 20 games they've both played since? What specifically made you completely re-evaluate your decision from last year's Finals, to the first ~20 or so games of the season (and Jokic's bad game last night)?

Because if you're setting the precedent of changing your mind every 20 games (or 1 game), then that means the best in the world can change from game to game...and we never get a consensus...?

So let me get this straight. Me saying Jokic is the best player int he world takes Embiid out of contention for the MVP?

LOl, tell that to LeBron who could have won far more MVPs as the best player then.

Jokic is the best because he's consistent. Embiid will be the best if he can translate his regular-season dominance to the playoffs. Until then it's Jokic, But by no means is Embiid not right up there for the MVP. it's probably interchangeable between Embiid/Jokic right now, with a slight lead for Embiid. In the end, stats, and record will come into play. Can Philly make a run for the #1 spot? Can the Nuggets become consistent again, they have their championship squad back minus Bruce Brown.

You have others who are nipping at their heels in SGA, Giannis, Hali and Luka, but in the end it'll be between those two again.

[ROballer]

As I said in the IST thread, the Pacers have lost
to the Bulls, Raptors, Hornets and Blazers.

Non playoff/lottery teams, all at home, by 7 points the biggest defeat.

They have wins against the Bucks 2x, Heat, Philly, Cleveland 2x, Bos, Atlanta who are all in the playoffs race and have positive records(except for Atl).

This thread would have a whole another vibe if they pulled just 2 wins out of the games mentioned above. Never mind they should have won all four honestly.

[CobraCommander]

Haliburton is number 4 right now

Jokic, Giannis, KD, Haliburton, Embiid....that’s your top 5 in the race with book, edwards, SGA, Tatum and Luka rounding out the top ten....only one spot is static...the rest fluid

[AleksandarN]

Brother I’m not gonna explain this to you. I watch almost every game that is nationally televised just as I watched Jokic suck it up last night on espn. I watched almost every playoff game last season. There are even TV’s at my job so I can watch the games there.

Instead of me explaining to you why Jokic is a terrible defender just go on YouTube and type in “Jokic bad defense” you will find about a thousand videos of Jokic getting Cooked on defense. There are literally hundreds of videos some even 10 minutes long. I just don’t know how to get this through your scull, Jokic is a poor defender it just is what it is.

So compilations of the worst aspect of someone's game tell the story? Can you find me a compilation of his bad defense in the playoffs last year? Or do you put together 100 plays over the course of 20,000 plays of a players career to spin a narrative maybe? Idk, I'm just asking the question.

Let's follow a logical exercise really quickly:
1. A block stops a shot from going in 99.9% of the time (there's 0.1% chance of it going in still, roughly) - Yes or no?
Good, glad you agree!
2. Not taking a shot means you cannot score a point. Agree? You have to take a shot, whether it's a FGA or FTA? I agree, do you agree?
3. Taking the ball out of play ensures that a shot is not taken. So when a player is back-cutting, and you kick the ball - that stops a high percentage move (layup). Agree or disagree? Well, it's not a statistic, but it acts like a block where the other team recovers ball, because it stopped a shot attempt. A shot attempt is required to make a point. Who led the league in deflections? Who has more game-winning or game-saving blocks (highest leverage play on defense, the most crucial time) in the past 3 years?

I'm just asking the questions, I'm not gonna preach to you. I know the answer, but I want to bring you along the journey

Re: Using compilations of a specific type of play...do you understand how data and databases work? I'd love to educate you, if you say you'd like to learn

You know someone could put together a compilation of all the missed free throws Embiid has, or lets say just 10% of all his career missed free throws, put together a compilation, and make it 20 minutes long? Then you'd be able to type in Embiid [pick whatever bad attribute] and it would be a nice long video?

Just because someone hasn't spent precious time of their life to do that, doesn't mean it can't be done. Makes you wonder why someone is spending time making compilations like that, eh? When you could do the same thing for every player.

I'd say results matter the most, and when your result is accomplishing the ultimate goal (championship as a team)...well, it's better than the words ("I WANT to win a championship"), because hey, actions speak louder than words IMO. But that's just me

There is more than 100 plays of Jokic playing terrible defense, like I said there are about 100 videos of him playing terrible defense in the playoffs and in the regular season. Like I said go search his defensive short comings and you will find many many videos breaking down his awful defense.

And you bring up embiids missed free throws but he’s a better freethrow shooter than Jokic and currently he is shooting a career high at 88%.

And I’m not positive Jokic led the league in deflections the last 3 years neither am I positive he has the most game saving blocks in the last 3 years. Show me the data if this is true.

You still avoiding my questions huh? I knew you would not reply to my last post. You are easy work. I will ask again. If Jokic was so terrible on defense than why didn’t teams exploit him on that end during his run? Where was all of those pick and rolls? Was his defense terrible in the playoffs last year?

[eyeatoma]

Haliburton is number 4 right now

Jokic, Giannis, KD, Haliburton, Embiid....that’s your top 5 in the race with book, edwards, SGA, Tatum and Luka rounding out the top ten....only one spot is static...the rest fluid

You got the order flipped, I forgive you.

[eyeatoma]

So compilations of the worst aspect of someone's game tell the story? Can you find me a compilation of his bad defense in the playoffs last year? Or do you put together 100 plays over the course of 20,000 plays of a players career to spin a narrative maybe? Idk, I'm just asking the question.

Let's follow a logical exercise really quickly:
1. A block stops a shot from going in 99.9% of the time (there's 0.1% chance of it going in still, roughly) - Yes or no?
Good, glad you agree!
2. Not taking a shot means you cannot score a point. Agree? You have to take a shot, whether it's a FGA or FTA? I agree, do you agree?
3. Taking the ball out of play ensures that a shot is not taken. So when a player is back-cutting, and you kick the ball - that stops a high percentage move (layup). Agree or disagree? Well, it's not a statistic, but it acts like a block where the other team recovers ball, because it stopped a shot attempt. A shot attempt is required to make a point. Who led the league in deflections? Who has more game-winning or game-saving blocks (highest leverage play on defense, the most crucial time) in the past 3 years?

I'm just asking the questions, I'm not gonna preach to you. I know the answer, but I want to bring you along the journey

Re: Using compilations of a specific type of play...do you understand how data and databases work? I'd love to educate you, if you say you'd like to learn

You know someone could put together a compilation of all the missed free throws Embiid has, or lets say just 10% of all his career missed free throws, put together a compilation, and make it 20 minutes long? Then you'd be able to type in Embiid [pick whatever bad attribute] and it would be a nice long video?

Just because someone hasn't spent precious time of their life to do that, doesn't mean it can't be done. Makes you wonder why someone is spending time making compilations like that, eh? When you could do the same thing for every player.

I'd say results matter the most, and when your result is accomplishing the ultimate goal (championship as a team)...well, it's better than the words ("I WANT to win a championship"), because hey, actions speak louder than words IMO. But that's just me

There is more than 100 plays of Jokic playing terrible defense, like I said there are about 100 videos of him playing terrible defense in the playoffs and in the regular season. Like I said go search his defensive short comings and you will find many many videos breaking down his awful defense.

And you bring up embiids missed free throws but he’s a better freethrow shooter than Jokic and currently he is shooting a career high at 88%.

And I’m not positive Jokic led the league in deflections the last 3 years neither am I positive he has the most game saving blocks in the last 3 years. Show me the data if this is true.

You still avoiding my questions huh? I knew you would not reply to my last post. You are easy work. I will ask again. If Jokic was so terrible on defense than why didn’t teams exploit him on that end during his run? Where was all of those pick and rolls? Was his defense terrible in the playoffs last year?

Not every team is amazing at pick and rolls. It could easily come down to coaching scheme as well.